Picks or not this is the question.

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 6 Oct 2009 8:21 am

Hi all, this is my very 1st post. OK here is the problem and it's got me a bit down to be honest. I don't use picks. I'm concerned this will be a handy cap as I go on. I know this has been covered before let me ask anyway. Background: I was a Upright Bass player (part of the reason I prefer finger tips and nails) (classical and Jazz) for the 1st half of my musical life. After college I picked up mandolin and Lap Steel (mostly E major tuning). I was playing mostly rock and some country/folk/blues. Did a fair shake of local gigs and then started to do some touring. Then about 3 years ago I decided I must have a PSG. Let me say while I love country steel to the teeth, I've done one country project in my 20 years of semi to full professional playing. I'm going for a hybrid sound (rock, sacred, country, world, experimental) . I've been playing lap for 5yrs and pedal almost 1yr. I know Mr Seymour and Mr Hyman do not use picks for example. Just did a wedding gig and dispite some minor issues I was not unhappy with my sound. If I continue this way it will be harder to change as I go. This I know. So to sum it up I have 2 questions 1. Can one get the attack and speed one needs to move forward? 2. Has any non pick player tried acrylillic nails? (without the fancy colors, not that there is anything wrong with that, I think). Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 6 Oct 2009 9:23 am

Picks make your pickin' more precise in respect to notes & sound Steve
yes, you'll get better attack & speed
train yourself to use them Steve
you can always play without them too when you get tired of having them on
i'll bet you'll keep the thumbpick on tho' ...
better to know how to play w: picks & not know how to play w: bare fingers
rather than playing w: bare fingers & not knowing how to play w: picks

Geoff Cline · Post by **Geoff Cline** » 6 Oct 2009 9:31 am

Hi Steve:

Welcome to the Forum (a great resource...I'm pretty new at this too).

I'm a thumb pick, no finger picks guy and think its the only way to go. I was encouraged in my "non-tradional" approach when I found out that Bobbe Seymour (a fine picker) plays this way.

Daniel Lanois is a no pick guy...also non-traditional in his approach to PSG. But gets GREAT tones and has a very cool attack/style IMHO.

Most folks will tell you to get a thumb pick and two finger picks and work until it feels right, because that is the way you'll get the best_________ (tone, speed, technique, etc.) And the vast majority of PSG players go with picks.

I say experiment and do what feels and sounds right to you. What every PSG player needs is to be able to master multiple grips...the ability to navigate between and among ten relatively closely spaced strings with precision (and often speed). Your right hand gets a righteous work out (and we won't even get into feet, knees and brain).

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 6 Oct 2009 10:03 am

Thanks Crowbear. Your logic is flawless of course.
I when I put them on I feel like I've never played music before. I guess it's a matter of time and hard work. What bothers me most is not being able to feel the string. When I get home I'll put'em on for an hour and try not to throw the bar threw the wall

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 6 Oct 2009 10:12 am

Thanks Geoff, I agree about the SGF. I held out posting cause there was so much to read. Great posts from so many great players. Being an ex-upright player I have a large callus on my thumb which gets a good tone. I'm gonna work a bit harder at it. Now for my next question D-10 or Uni, can of worms anyone?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Oct 2009 10:37 am

Sure, you can play steel without finger picks...as do almost 1% of the rest of the players out there.

Seriously, though (and this goes for any instrument), listen to the players whose sound you like, and then use what they use. That may not be where you wind up a few years down the road, but it should definitely be where you start!

(IMHO, of course.)

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 6 Oct 2009 11:05 am

Thanks Donny. I've read so many of your other posts/replies the good wisdom you've given on here has never let me down. I'm a big fan of Paul F Big E also very big fan of Bobbe Seymour. Also Bill Hankey. Love reading his posts feel like I pour coffee direct into my brain case.

You are very right on this one.
I'm gonna do my best.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 6 Oct 2009 11:27 am

I played for years without picks, mainly because I was always gigging, and didn't have time to learn with picks.

My tone was terrible.

It was when I saw Lloyd Green at a show that I knew that I had to play with picks, to try to get my tone somewhere in the ballpark.

In less than a week, I felt naked without picks, and my tone had improved immeasurably

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 6 Oct 2009 11:59 am

listen to the players whose sound you like, and then use what they use.

Holy smokes ! I can't believe you actually said that, Donny.
First the Berlin Wall, and now this!

- John

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 6 Oct 2009 12:20 pm

Less than a week richard?!? Amazing!!! I can block and mute with my fingers quite well. This will take a long time. Perhaps it seems harder than it is. I guess the other side of the coin is I have my own sound. Part of me says keep going on that. I will never play like Buddy Lloyd or Paul. But to get "that sound" I'll have to try harder. Crowbear is right. I can take them off if I want.

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 6 Oct 2009 1:02 pm

At the very least, use a thumbpick....you don't NEED fingerpicks, but it helps your tone significantly, and it doesn't take that long to get used to playing with picks.

Maybe try some much lighter picks to start out (like Dunlop 13's or 15's), so you can still feel the strings a bit. It's easier to learn pick blocking this way. And make sure to bend them to fit, and to hit the strings at the right angle.

If you're not going to use fingerpicks, try to pick the strings with your nails, not just your fingertips.

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 6 Oct 2009 4:09 pm

Lotsa suggestions here, Steve. There's good logic in each one. You have to do what's comfortable to you, though. If you decide you want to learn to play using picks, a little trick I did so I could get used to them, is to wear them around the house, wear them in the car, while on the phone, even while using a computer and the mouse...now that was a challenge. Soon they'll become a part of you, an extension of your fingers, so to speak. Picks will clean up your sound and give you more volume. I'd recommend them to anyone, except maybe Bobbe Seymour.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 6 Oct 2009 8:54 pm

I've been studying with Denny Mathis every week for the last few months now, and I havent seen him use any picks or a volume pedal yet. I use a Dunlop plastic thumb pick and two Dunlop .25 metal finger picks and a Hilton LP volume pedal usually, but since he doesnt use a volume pedal during lessons (it really is all in the hands!), I leave the volume pedal at home, but I bring my picks. I can play without picks, but after a while my thumb gets a little sore. Id try using just a thumb pick first, as previously suggested. I usually only wear a thumb pick when tuning and adjusting the steel, then wear finger picks to practice and perform. One advantage I can think of for not using finger picks is: harmonics may be easier to achieve with a fingertip in front of the thumbpick, rather than the typical palm or knuckle behind thumb techniques. Also, you dont have to wear four finger picks to use all fingers to pick!
How many people have you seen look at a finger pick for the very first time ever, and then put it on upside down!

Stan Schober · Post by **Stan Schober** » 6 Oct 2009 10:13 pm

I , too, started out as a bassist of over 40 years, but I had also a bit of classical guitar training.
I tried using my nails, but the attack was just too muted.
SO, I tried this:

I still fiddle with wearing them the other way round
once in a while (notice,I didn't say "the right way")
but this feels so much better to me.
Lets me block with my fingertips, too.

Gotta have that metal thumbie, too.

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 6 Oct 2009 11:02 pm

I'm an upright bass player, and I started with picks. It took a while, and involved a lot of tweaking, but I'm convinced they're the way to go.

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 7 Oct 2009 6:38 am

Wow some great up front info here. It's true about harmonics, but I know they're not quite as bright.
I like the backwards approach. I put about 4 hrs in the seat last night with them on. The right way and had some OK tone going on. Ughhh I'm slipping into a song here sounds like a waltz....

I've worn them "off duty". Taken my bar to a movie.
and woodshed till my back was gonna break.
As I walk around town
feeling like a clown
but I can't get that sound out of my head
Learning the steel guitar is quite a thing
Don't matter who's in Texas, Cause Ralph Mooney
is still the king.

sorry bout that....

The other side of the coin is what I loose by using them. I'm using a version of Dan Tyack's copedent.
And Have a great time palm muting and playing hard rock. I do great with AC/DC. I like playing "thunderstruck" it's a blast. Big massive sounding chords/licks slides and such.
With this style I can use movable bass lines.
When I'm working on "sultans of swing" for example I get a nice counter point thing going on.

On another note I just played my sister's wedding. I put the band together. We did some jazz for the warm up.( I played electric mandolins for the tougher changes) Then I kicked off "Far Away Eyes" by the stones real country style. 150 people looked up got very silent and realized I was making that sound.
The band had quite expression on as well. When I finished the tag and pulled a sweet ending we got a huge round of applause. Our 1st of the night. After many years of saving, studying, touring, hard work
I felt at home for the 1st time in years. 50% was me. 50% was the SGF can't thank you all enough. As an aside to this tale my brother who is a cop in new hampshire could not come as he was chasing a drunk driver and totaled his cruser getting that SOB off the street. He's banged up but ok. We did not know he was ok till he called. I dedicated that song to him after the applause died down.
Thanks b0b and everyone else.
I would not have made that sound without your help

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 7 Oct 2009 3:56 pm

I started out as a flamenco guitarist where the nails are a huge issue as all the rasgueos (high speed strums) wear away at the top of the player's nails. You can actually bleed through the top of the nail if you don't use some form of protection. Of all the methods I have tried, silk is the best and acrylics are the WORST. Acrylic made my tone sound like a squishy piezo pickup. Silk is strong and leaves the nail flexible.

Because of my background with using nails and because of the fact that my favorite steel player uses just a thumpick and bare fingers, it's improbable that I use fingerpicks on steel, but I do. I feel more comfortable with bare fingers and I tend to play more fluid, have better speed, etc. However, when playing in a live situation, the clean tone just gets lost in the mix unless I use picks.

I too am a hybrid player and, more than anything else, I want my own distinctive sound. For this reason, I'm going to start playing without picks and figure out other ways to cut through the mix. You can definately get a far larger tonal pallete with properly shaped nails than with fingerpicks. It also makes the instrument feel more intimate (to me).

Pete Honychurch · Post by **Pete Honychurch** » 7 Oct 2009 5:12 pm

I've played dobro, lap steel and guitar with only a thumb pick for a long time. When I just recently bought a pedal steel I decided it was time to try to get used to finger picks as I was going to be woodshedding for quite some time anyway.
They feel totally alien to me (like you) but slowly I am starting to get a bit of a feel for them. I figure I can always take them off but if I don't get used to them I can never put them on.
There are definite advantages to being able to use fingerpicks.

Pete Honychurch · Post by **Pete Honychurch** » 7 Oct 2009 5:16 pm

Stan Schober wrote:

You're a sick, sick man

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 7 Oct 2009 5:29 pm

Get some Alaska Pics. You wear them like that, but they are plastic and have a great tone and leave the flesh of your finger there to mute strings etc.

If you do not use pics, you will never be able to play for any lengths of time without chewing your nails to pieces. Been there, done that. You won't get the same sound with just the flesh, but it might turn into something nice.

Here is an MP3 I did of "Streets of Laredo" on 12string NON pedal. No picks, just nail and flesh. Lot's of open strings. It can be done.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?d4ggbu3yn4t

Geoff Cline · Post by **Geoff Cline** » 7 Oct 2009 6:11 pm

James Mayer wrote:...

I too am a hybrid player and, more than anything else, I want my own distinctive sound. For this reason, I'm going to start playing without picks and figure out other ways to cut through the mix. You can definitely get a far larger tonal pallette with properly shaped nails than with fingerpicks. It also makes the instrument feel more intimate (to me).

BINGO! It is about finding and creating YOUR sound on the instrument. A life long journey...

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 7 Oct 2009 6:57 pm

James Mayer wrote: You can definately get a far larger tonal pallete with properly shaped nails than with fingerpicks.

That's not true. Sure, there's some sounds you can only get with nails, but there are just as many, if not more sounds you can only get with picks. I play without picks sometimes, to get a different sound, and there's nothing wrong with doing that, but I think playing with picks is more versatile. It's important to be able to do both, though.

I know what you mean about it feeling more intimate without picks, but I have a lot more control with picks.
If you were playing without picks, would you still use a thumbpick?

Pat Comeau · Post by **Pat Comeau** » 7 Oct 2009 9:36 pm

I've been playing for years with just a thumb pick and fingers...i don't use my nail just skin tip of my fingers and don't have problem playing a 4 hour gigs, the tips of my fingers are so hard from playing guitar for almost 40 years

here's a few links of me playing with just a thumb pick.

Tone is all in the hands and fingers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zN ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0uJKSaG ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZr0iwAc ... annel_page

Stan Schober · Post by **Stan Schober** » 7 Oct 2009 9:57 pm

Pete Honychurch wrote: You're a sick, sick man

I know .

Bill Hatcher wrote:Get some Alaska Pics. You wear them like that, but they are plastic and have a great tone and leave the flesh of your finger there to mute strings etc.

THanks !! THey come in brass, too.

I just ordered a pair.

BTW, IMHO, the person with the broadest tonal palette would be the person who can play just as well with or without them...

Steve Benson · Post by **Steve Benson** » 8 Oct 2009 7:26 am

Thanks all, this is great stuff. I just ordered a gaggle of Alaska picks brass and plastic, while I was at it (man I can't afford this, yet for tone's sake I can't afford not to) bought a BJS bar and a Hilton Pedal.
The logic that with or without picks makes a lot of sense for a mutant hybrid player like myself. A pick that acts as an extended fingernail makes a lot of sense as well. Adding more tools to the box makes the most sense. I would not want to turn down a hard rock session on steel (or mando or sitar) because I could not get the right tone. Same goes for the classic approach to the PSG. PS thanks for the pics,
That you took the time to help a meatball trying to play steel goes a long way in my book,

The Steel Guitar Forum

Picks or not this is the question.

Picks or not this is the question.

Thanks

Thanks Geoff

Thanks Donny

Thanks so much

Thanks