| Author |
Topic: A Real Beginner's Copedent |
Eddie D.Bollinger
From:
Calhoun City, Mississippi
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 7:18 pm |
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I am not sure if I would WANT it to be less than 500.
Even though it would be six strings and simpler
copedant, I would be interested in in the positive "feel" (stops, pedal travel,etc.)
Obviously, I would want "as inexpensive as possible"
but there are qualities that would need to be there
to make it useful.
I love the idea.
_________________
Eddie Bollinger
Mullen RP D-10 w/ Max-Tone
Nash 1000, Peavey PowerSlide |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 8:35 pm
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I think some folks are overthinking this.
You need to look at it NOT from the perspective of an experienced player who needs this function or that function - look at it as if you'd NEVER player a pedal steel in your life.
I think it's a great idea. In some ways it's similar to what I ended up with. When I got started I'd been playing 6-string for 35+ years, dobro for 20 and lapsteel for about 10 (in C6). I had some left-hand problems, didn't want to quit playing music and bought a pedal steel - an MSA D-10.
I had the usual books - but I really wasn't that interested in traditional steel, I wanted to "transfer" my 6-string style to it. Regardless, even trying to play the country stuff in the books I was baffled by the chromatics and the "weird" string (is it #9 - I forget!). I was playing a 4-string guitar, using two pedals...and lugging 100 pounds around.
I was seriously ready to just quit when I got a Fender tuned to A6. That was OK, but when I changed it to the B6 I use now (at the time I had to leave off a few changes, as I didn't have knee levers) I found I could "fake" all kinds of stuff.
It was and still is very intuitive - as a guitar player, all I have to do is think "pedals down" (my first two are essentially A&B pedals) and the positions are the same as on 6-string. The range is also in familiar territory, without the high-pitched "whine".
This is something b0b and I have discussed before - a simplified instrument with an easy-to-not-make-a-mistake-tuning/copedent and a price point close to a mid-line 6-string electric (i.e. a Standard Strat or Tele).
From discussions with some of the big-box chain music stores, there's interest in pedal steel - just no instruments that are "accessible" to beginners or younger 6-string players looking to do something different.
Package it with a generic "how to play pedal steel" course and have a small amp as a "package" option...make 'em in Korea, Indonesia or Taiwan, and somebody's going to make money AND fill a need.
Most of all, it'll expand the pedal steel market - something sorely needed when you consider the aging demographics of the pedal steel market.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 10:48 pm
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b0b,
I feel the Pedalcaster setup is perfect.
Of course, what else could we expect from Jerry Byrd?  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 11:51 am
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I think this type of stripped-down C tuning is a perfectly workable way to get started, especially for someone who is not a 6-string guitar player. I agree that the theory is easier to visualize in the key of C. But for someone who has primarily come up on guitar, I think raising the whole tuning 4 semi-tones to E might make more sense.
I don't see any reason why an instrument like this couldn't handle a this type of tuning in either C or E - just change the string gauges to roughly equalize the tensions, and give instructions for doing either one.
I'm not sure if there's a large enough market potential to get the economy of scale to bring the price of something workable and decent down below $500, but maybe if a 'famous name' was brought in it might spur some serious interest. By 'famous name', I mean someone that really is becoming a household name with a lot of popular music fans, and I imagine y'all know who I mean.
| Quote: |
| But it doesn't take much knowledge to use your ears and know what strings/ notes TO NOT Play! |
It's one thing knowing which strings not to play, and quite another to train your fingers to actually not play them. I have talked to many guitar players for whom that is pretty much a showstopper. They want to be able to deal with it much more like a lap steel on steroids - i.e., with pedals. Many of these guys are now reasonably proficient on lap steel - I think some of them really would be interested in a pedal steel with a stripped-down setup like this.
Another way to attack this would be to deal with another showstopper for many guitar players I know - having to sit down at the steel. One could make something like this to be played standing up: Four pedals in an F A B E configuration, or maybe have a single left-moving lever for E and four pedals F A B C. I think W.C. Edgar has the right idea - I was gonna comment on that thread (about his stand-up pedal steel) about my plans to do just that type of thing with my old Sho Bud 12-string universal, but there was so much dissent that he had it closed before I got a chance to do it. Of course, I don't plan to remove any strings - I like the standard E9/B6 setup as-is. |
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Carl Morris
From:
Boulder, Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 1:52 pm
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Just a reply from the perspective of someone who's had their Carter Starter for about a year now, and had some fun with it but not practiced nearly as much as I'd need to if I was trying to be a "real" steel player:
If a person wants to be a "real" steel player, it seems to me like they'd be better off going E9 right from the beginning. However, if a person just wants to add some steel guitar sounds to their bag of tricks and doesn't realistically have time to put in the work to be able to play all the hits note-for-note, I think there would be a use for a 6-string. My opinion is that it should use a standard 6-string tuning and standard strings and pickups and controls. You just tune it to a major chord and provide the standard A and B pedal capability and a few extra pedals and or levers to get minors and 7ths and whatever else is possible in both pedals up and pedals down positions. I think at this point I'd be better off with that even though I'd miss the high G#.
My ideal would be something like a LoneStar but with a GFI keyless style tuner/headstock setup. I'll take mine with a couple of Gibson PAF-style pickups. Obviously not a standard country setup. More like a Les Paul that can play a few country cliche licks, and that any guitar player could sit down at and have some fun with.
_________________
Carl Morris
http://cdmorris.com/music/ |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 2:10 pm
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I have to agree With Carl,
If someone only wants a few steel licks here and there he can do it with a electric guitar, before i started on the steel i use to make all my steel licks on my Tele and i could fake it real close to a steel, i think if someone buys a 6 strings steel and wants to learn a song that has steel in it he will be frustrated:? by not being able to it exactly or close to the real thing, i had that same problem for years with my old sho-bud maverick, the only way a 6 string steel guitar would probably sell is if there was music already made for it.
buy the real thing...and play the real stuff
that's my opinion......................Pat C.
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 4:40 pm
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| Quote: |
| I think if someone buys a 6 strings steel and wants to learn a song that has steel in it he will be frustrated:? by not being able to it exactly or close to the real thing, |
A buddy of mine has a Cougar 6-string steel (I don't know what the copedent is - but I can find out) and he loves it. He plays Stringbender Tele and steel in a country-rock band and says that 6-string steel gets all the stereotypical pedal steel sounds he needs.
And he says it's funny, but other players will talk to him after a gig and ask about the steel - but only because of the brand name. They don't know usually it's a 6 string unless they see it up close.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Eddie D.Bollinger
From:
Calhoun City, Mississippi
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Posted 6 Oct 2009 8:11 pm
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does a body for a ateel have to be straight and 3 pieces. can it be one piece and carved out?
_________________
Eddie Bollinger
Mullen RP D-10 w/ Max-Tone
Nash 1000, Peavey PowerSlide |
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Stan Schober
From:
Cahokia, Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2009 8:43 pm
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| Aren't Carpsteels molded ? |
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jim flynn
From:
Salado,Texas
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Posted 7 Oct 2009 3:06 am
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Bob, now you've done it. I have been wanting to try C-6 on one of my 6"LITES" AND YOU JUST PUSHED ME OVER THE EDGE.
I have resisted in the past because I'm afraid that it can't sound country enough for my regular jobs, but I love Jazz, blues and older POP stuff, and you can be a ham with C-6.
I'll let you know if i get it finished before the end of the year.
Hear is a pic of my original E-9 that I continue to
use, the new bodies are a little wider now, and lots of changes in the undercarriage, still a ball to gig with.
Jim
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2009 7:42 am
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Just to be clear, Jim, I'm not proposing a C6th. This is a 6 string C major tuning with E9th changes (3 pedals, 3 levers). It would be very easy for you to make, I think, and most any accomplished steel player would take to it like a duck to water. It's a beginner's copedent. Easy to teach, easy to learn.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2009 7:46 am
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| Eddie D.Bollinger wrote: |
| does a body for a ateel have to be straight and 3 pieces. can it be one piece and carved out? |
The Sierra Artist body was one piece of bent aluminum.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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jim flynn
From:
Salado,Texas
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Posted 8 Oct 2009 4:10 am C tuning
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Right BoB, C major with pulls, I still want to try it.
About "special music(or tab) for 6 string pedal, I am able to get all the notes, chords, chromatic s with 3X4
in E, that you get on 10 strings E-9. So you don't need
a separate tab just re arrange your thinking a little.
How many times have you heard" I hate that 9th string".
or even the F#, and of course the B to Bb. So to me E tuned pedal guitars take more decision making, whereas
the C may actually be more intuitive.
Jim |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2009 4:42 am
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Nevermind what the copedent does. Make a few of them,put on dark sun glasses, and sell them on the Home Shopping Network.  |
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Billy Wilson
From:
El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2009 7:07 pm
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| If you build it they will come. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 5 Nov 2009 8:38 pm
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The ten string E9 tuning is intimidating to novices. The lead player in my band sat down at my steel last night and immediately got lost in the strings. But that can be overcome by simply taking off the top two chromatic strings, and the bottom D and B strings. Then if the novice starts to get the hang of things they can add those strings back when they are ready, and they don't have to buy another guitar. And if they can't make any headway on their playing with only six strings, then they have a more sale-able instrument to pass on the next novice.
I will admit my bias. I can't imagine trying to play the E9 tuning with any less than 10 strings. I use them all, all the time.
I question whether a six string pedal steel would really be significantly cheaper than a ten string.
Isn't most of the cost of selling a steel for a profit in the labor and the marketing? |
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Stephen Calhoun
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2009 7:38 am
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I'm a beginner. I'm using the following:
This tuning was found here, and was by b0b by way of Dave Doggett, or visa-versa.
To me, this is Emaj with E9 lick-a-bility and 6th sense.
My approach is to learn scales and single note trajectories, for reasons having to do with my experimentalist's ambitions.
_________________
slide avant-gardist, experimentalist, echo surfer
two 1970-ish Fender 400, Fouke Industrial Rail, Allen Melbert 6, Rondo SX -- everything one way or the other through Guitar Rig/Logic/Apple/synthesizers/iPAD. ...sometimes out to a Tech 21 Trademark 60 1x12
recording as Kamelmauz.bandcamp.com |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 6 Nov 2009 7:50 am
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| Eddie D.Bollinger wrote: |
| Does a body for a ateel have to be straight and 3 pieces? Can it be one piece and carved out? |
Lap steels are often built like that, but with the mechanism, rods, etc. for a pedal steel you would have to carve a lot of wood out. It's hardly worth the effort. |
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Gail Bailey
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2009 11:27 am Re: A Real Beginner's Copedent
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| b0b wrote: |
Sometimes I think that the E9th is just way too complex for kids and other beginners. It seems to me that the basic pedal steel concepts could be taught with a simple C major 6-string copedent:
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL
E +F
C +C# ++D -B
G ++A ++A
E --D +F
C +C# -B
G ++A |
I also think that you wouldn't need special "steel guitar" strings for this. A medium gauge guitar set would work fine.
What do you think? |
I like it! |
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Joe Gretz
From:
Washington, DC, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2009 2:04 pm Six string pedal
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b0b,
I LOVE the idea! I think it would go a long way toward introducing the instrument to the next generation!
Heck, I'd like one for myself too!
Joe
_________________
Dattebayo!!! |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 12:36 pm Re: A Real Beginner's Copedent
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| b0b wrote: |
Sometimes I think that the E9th is just way too complex for kids and other beginners. It seems to me that the basic pedal steel concepts could be taught with a simple C major 6-string copedent:
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL
E +F
C +C# ++D -B
G ++A ++A
E --D +F
C +C# -B
G ++A |
I also think that you wouldn't need special "steel guitar" strings for this. A medium gauge guitar set would work fine.
What do you think? |
Are you sure about that? I'm thinking of trying out this copedent, this weekend. The first thing that catches is my eye is taking the low guitar E string up to a G and then even further to A with the pedal. Seems like the A string from the guitar set might be a better choice for both the 5th and 6th strings. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 2:23 pm
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I think that anything in the .040 to .048 range would work for the low G. I'm not saying that a guitar set would be ideal, but it would probably work. The ideal set would be something like this:
E: .014
C: .017
G: .022
E: .028
C: .036
G: .044
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Burton
From:
Manassas, Va
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Posted 8 Jan 2010 2:36 pm
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This is a very interesting thread.
As a newbie currently learning 10 string E9, let me add my 2 cents.
I started on regular guitar many years ago, and from that, and other instruments, I know a little theory.
When I decided I wanted to learn pedal steel, I took the route of first learning lap steel. (Mainly C6 tuning, but I tried others, 6 strings and eight strings..)which I played for about two years before buying a pedal steel.
Maybe, I'm wrong, but I would recommend anyone wanting to learn pedal steel to simply start with a NON-pedal steel.
What I learned from lap steel:
1) Finger picking a steel, i.e. hitting the right strings, grips etc. Using fingerpicks, etc.
2) Damping, blocking, etc.
3) Harmonics, palm harmonics, knuckle, etc.
4) bar Vibrato (well...I'm still learning...)
5) Volume pedal ( uh...I'm still learning..)
6) Intonation..(see 4 and 5)
7) Ear training..etc.
8 ) Some of the HISTORY and PLAYERS of steel (non pedal and pedal).
Sooo..now I finally got a Pedal steel, 10 strings, 4 levers, 3 pedals, different tuning..
What do I need to focus the most on in the beginning?
Operating the pedals and levers properly and where the notes and chords layout...(and tuning...)
See? Even Though I haven't truly mastered the things I listed above, I don't have to focus (as much) on them WHILE I learn a new tuning and new mechanics.
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Jan 2010 12:00 pm
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I played around with this copedent, all weekend. I've decided to keep it. There were a couple of things I was missing from the higher E9 copedent that this copedent has. One is the obviously lower range that just works better for warm overdriven tones. Another is that there are more wound strings that I use frequently for special effects that are impossible on the unwounds. Probably the biggest selling point is that, by using the A pedal, I have the top three strings of the C6 non-pedal tuning that I've written most of our set-list in. Of course, the bass strings of C6 are also there, just stacked differently.
I'd definitely recommend this copedent for those coming from non-pedal C6 to PSG. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Jan 2010 12:17 pm
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James, I think you have 4 knee levers, right? Try lowering the low G to F on your RKR, to get that 1-5-1 power chord with P2. I think you'll like that!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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