Microphone for bluegrass ??

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 1 Sep 2009 2:28 am

Hi
I'm usually over in the pedal section but thought you guys would know what I'm talking about .
What type of microphone do the bands use when there is only one mic ? When they all sing and play around the one mic . Do these work ok with a modern P A ?
This is another thing to try in my ongoing quest to get the band to "turn it down " .

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 1 Sep 2009 3:20 am

The newer version would be a high-performance dual-diaphragm studio condenser mic like a Behringer B2.
Most are phantom powered and can pick up a pin drop.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 1 Sep 2009 6:43 am

This really belongs in Electronics rather than Steel Without Pedals. Moved.

Here are a couple of links that might be helpful:
Single Mic History and Techniques
Single Mic Technique for Music Reinforcement

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 7:05 am

My Band www.lonemountainband.com plays through one mic a lot.

When using one mic for the whole band, you don't work the mic as close as you would with individual mics, every one is in a semicircle behind the mic, and the guy singing or playing lead steps front and center. If one person hogs the mic, it messes up the mix. Not being as close, gain before feedback is very important. The pattern needs to be wide enough so that everyone can stand comfortably away from one another. Also some mics have a wide pattern, but the tone quality changes as you move around the pattern. A multi-pattern mic does not work as well in this app. as a cardioid does. Even the multi-pattern mic in cardioid mode does not have the same pattern as a plain old cardioid. The multi in cardioid will be narrower, and will feedback quicker. An omni will pick up as much room noise as it does band noise, and will feedback quicker.
A lot of very expensive mics that work great recording, do not work well at all when used in this way. In a mic for live sound, what it doesn't pick up, is as important as what it does pick up. When recording in a quiet controlled environment, you want to pick up every little nuance, live you mostly just want to control what is heard..

Audio Technica AT4033 is a popular mic. It sounds very good, but I think the pattern is a little narrower that some others, and it get pretty thin sounding as you move away from it.
All of the MXL mics, that you see sold cheaply everywhere, any I have tried sounded pretty thin when you back off, and feedback pretty easy.
Any of the AKG condensers I have tried work really good in this app.
I have some cheap Apex condensers that sound very good this way.
The main reason to use a big diaphragm condenser, is that they look cool.
I have also used some smaller diaphragm cardioid condensers that work very well in this way. A sure sm-81 will work great, as will an AKG c-1000. A lot of the smaller Audio Technicas sound better to me in this app., than the popular 4033, although I use a 4033 a lot for other things.

My favorite mics for this use are the Rode nt 1, and Groove tubes am-16.
These are the ones out of lots of mics I have tried, that are easiest to get a good sound when used in this way. We use the Rode mics the most because they are cheap and easy to replace and they sound great.
I have had soundmen with Audio Technicas suggest maybe we should use their mics instead of ours because they heard that Doyle Lawson or somebody was using them, and they had never heard of a Rode before. After they agree to pacify me and try the Rode, they always come back and say "Now what kind of mic did you say that was?" I have never had a sound man try it and complain about that mic.

I think there are some live shows on our web page that you can listen to. I think there are also some thing on youtube if you search for lone mountain band.
Listen to these clips without worry. I play no bad steel guitar on these clips, There is no steel guitar on these clips. It is a Bluegrass band.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 7:10 am

I would like to add that if you are a duo, a multi-pattern mic on figure 8 will work better, because it gives each person their own mic element, and creates dead spots in the audience and the reflections off the back of the stage.

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 1 Sep 2009 9:49 am

When my band went through the one-mic phase, we studied the Del McCoury band to see how they handled the choreography, and we used the same mic, an AT4033. FWIW, the last time I saw Del McCoury live they were up to four mics.

Another band we watched is Doyle Lawson, although they have since moved to multiple mics as well, and they use in-ear monitors.

For the rare venue that we only need to amplify vocals we use a single AT4047, which is a large-diaphragm mic that I think works much better than the 4033.

Challenges with a single-mic setup:
* Gain before feedback is limited, and you will need either an experienced sound person with a 1/3-octave EQ, or some type of automatic feedback suppression
* Because the musicians are not that close to the mic, some venues will sound a bit like playing in a cave
* Everyone on the band must listen and adjust based on FOH sound
* The guitar player may have to alter his/her technique to be picked up properly
* The fiddler may have to alter his/her technique to be heard properly when playing backup
* The dobro player will be challenged finding a way to be heard.
* Everyone must learn the choreography

You can solve some of these issues by stacking two mics, one on top for vocals, one below for guitar and mando/dobro/banjo breaks.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 12:04 pm

I agree that you have to alter your technique. I also think that the alterations are really things that you should be doing anyway, but on individual mic with a good soundman, we just get lazy. One mic forces you to listen to dynamic range more closely, and alter your attack and distance from the mic to adjust it. If it sounds right in the center of the band on stage, and the mic is in the center, it will sound the same out front.
You are right about the Audio Technica, it is a 4033. This is the same mic I was speaking of, but I had the number wrong.
Instead of using a mic down low for the instruments, try seting the mic aout chin level and angle it slightly towards the floor. If you set the mic straight up and down, half of the pickup pattern is over your head, and when you step up to the mic, your instument is really out of the pattern. A rhythm guitar will easily be louder than most vocals if the mic is angled.

A dobro is another situation all together. Most groups I know that use a dobro, have a mic down for it.

My group uses two mics a lot, we place both of them up and angled, and spaced a few feet apart, and pointed about 90 degrees apart towards the edge of the semi-circle. This just lets us open up the circle a bit. You have to set the two mics so that they are not causing any phase problems and canceling each other out. We just put the mics up, have the guitar player start playing, and he moves around the semi-circle, and we move one of the mic stands until no matter where he stands the sound is the same. As long as nothing is moved and the soundman does not try to mix the two mics seperately, we are good to go. This adjustment takes all of about 5 min.

In some situations, we get too many reflatcions and things that cause problems with 2 mics, and 1 will work better. Sometimes 2 works better. In some rooms the un amplified bass fiddle seems to boom no matter what you do. Other times, you can't hear the bass so we put an extra mic on it.

I truly believe that playing this way has made us a better band. When we do play through a regulare multi-mic set up, we still have a better dynamic rangs that we did before, and dealing with a bad monitor mix is easier, because we just get the monitors turned off, and it does not matter, because we are used to listening to each other anyway.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 12:06 pm

didn't mean to say it three times.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 12:09 pm

sorry

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 1 Sep 2009 12:35 pm

Using one mic is a blast. For the past five years my bluegrass band has used an AT4033. For some gigs we use a second one positioned a bit lower for mandolin & banjo breaks. Our bass player has a pickup on his upright, so he's not as concerned with getting into the mic. The only time we've run into problems is at rock clubs where the soundman isn't used to bluegrass bands.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 1 Sep 2009 1:28 pm

Your right about those soundmen. A good one gets it right fast, and likes the fact that he has nothing to control, and takes it easy for a set. A bad one gets it sounding pretty good, and then continues to mess it up worse and worse until you quit playing. One of the good things about the small set up, is that you get used to controlling it phisically and acoustically, by your position and how hard you play. You can compensate for a lot, bur when the soundman won't quit dinking with it, you just chase it all night.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 2 Sep 2009 1:58 am

anyone use a rode ntk for a single mic? i have one and love it but haven't ever used it for this app...i am starting a group and thinking of going in this direction for sound reinforcement and am wondering if it would work...i have never been in a group that uses one mic only so...just curious...

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 2 Sep 2009 4:53 am

I have not tried the NTK. My guess is that it would work great. If I had one, I would try it. Keep in mind what I said about some very sensitive mics that are great for recording, pick up too much room sound. Also when recording, you are not concerned about feedback, like you are when using the same mic to play a show. Also, being a tube mic, and NTK would be more fragile to travel with.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 2 Sep 2009 5:38 am

Another thumbs up for the Rode NTK. One of the best affordable tube condensers around. I haven't tried it live, but the pattern should make it a good contender. I wouldn't be any more afraid to take the NTK out there than with any other mic. It's pretty rugged. I don't think the tube factor makes it significantly more fragile. The most important thing to protect is the multi-pin mic/power cord.

The AT 4033 really does seem to shine at this application. I've seen a number of bluegrass acts follow the trend set by Del McCoury band using one or more of these mic's.

Brad

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 2 Sep 2009 6:16 am

+1 on the AT 4033...

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 4 Sep 2009 3:12 am

Thanks for all the ideas ,lots to think about .Down here --OZ-- there is a lot of Rode NT 1A mics for sale , are these similar to the Rode NT 1 ??

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 4 Sep 2009 4:34 am

I think the nt1a is just the new version of the same mic. I think the new case is a little sturdier.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 4 Sep 2009 9:09 pm

I've played a lot of bluegrass, both with several mics and on one mic. The revival of the one mic system was brought back by Doyle Lawson. When I played with Del McCoury in the 80's we never used the one mic setup. It's more for convenience than anything else. It works, but I don't like it a well as having my own mic. The "mix levels" can be controlled by the players learning how to "work the mic". However, good players know how to do that using individuals mics too, and it's a necessary part of playing acoustic music. My major downside of the one mic system is that all instruments and vocals must be using the same EQ and reverb settings. I've never thought this was the case.

Again, for convenience and to not have to worry about rinky-dink sound systems that are often at small festivals and school house shows, the one mic system is the way to go. But, I don't think it's anywhere near as good as a good sound system operated by competent sound men.

My preference is for all the musicians to have their own mic, but everyone sings on the same mic as the lead singer. I like the sound and I like to watch the players know when to leave their station at just the right time to be at the center mic to sing their harmony parts. The Osborne Brothers were masters of this, and that's the way we did it when I worked with Bill Monroe and Jimmy Martin.

Something else worth mentioning. With those pro bands, we didn't play really loud. We worked the mics so that it was not a chore to play your part and be heard. It's really a comfortable feeling once everyone learns how to work together.

Have fun!

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 5 Sep 2009 5:48 am

You have several good points Rick.
I do agree that one mic is a compromise. You can't get as loud as you can with several mics.
The ultimate is individual mics and a good attentive soundman, who knows your music.
I also agree that a good band will work the mic much the same way whether they have individuals or not.
One of the best parts of using one, is that when someone steps into the mic to play a break, every one sees who is taking a break and has a visual clue what to listen for.
So many times the rock and roll sound guy has no interest or experience in acoustic music. To him an acoustic guitar that doesn't plug in is a prop for a singer to hold. He sees the guitar, cuts it way down (remember it's just a prop) and when the 2 time national flatpicking champion take his break in a bluegrass song, it's over before Mr. Soundman ever cares or knows that anything happened.
This never happens with one mic. Even if the soundman has it messed up real bad, when someone steps up to do something, every one on the crowd knows it because they see it, and it is the loudest thing happening at that time.
I also agree about playing loud. having a powerful sound is more about the blend and the dynamic range, instead of just everyone trying to play as loud as the banjo player, who needs to learn to listen and blend.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 5 Sep 2009 7:20 pm

I've noticed lately that a lot of the dyanamics (not mics) are leaving bluegrass. There seems to be an effort to move toward a smooth, blending, more folk type sound.... kind of like the 60's music of the Mamma and Papas, etc... I listen to Jimmy Martin's Greatest Hit's album for one of the best examples of drive and timing that I know of.

Banjo players should listen to the masters: Scruggs, Osborne, Reno, Emerson, etc... these guys knew when to play and when to be quite. The constant loud banjo roll in my ears really grates on my nerves.

Play pretty!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Sep 2009 10:29 am

I played bluegrass almost exclusively for about 10 years.

The "one mic" use is a style, not a way to turn things down (it WILL turn things down - but...).

It works fine for old-time bluegrass - traditional lead vocal, trio harmony, few solos and primarily fiddle with some banjo and mando and NO guitar solos (Dobro is almost irrelevant with one mic, and you will have essentially NO bass).

It's just not realistic nowadays. More modern bluegrass uses the guitar far more than traditional, early bluegrass (where a "G" run WAS the only solo ever played), and advances in instrument building have makers thinking about mic'ing almost as much as unamplified sound. With one mic - no matter HOW good it is - you lose all the dynamics of modern bluegrass styles

Good players know how to "play the mic" and back off unless they are playing a specific fill, lead or "driving" the song. I still play occasional bluegrass gigs, and if the soundman is unfamiliar with how to mix the band we get the levels set at soundcheck and tell him not to touch ANYTHING except the overall volume. When the soundman starts trying to figure out what instrument to bring up for a fill or break it WILL suck, as the style is not conducive to that type of mixing. OTOH, if the band does not know how to work on and off the mics they are in for a terrible time. It's a necessity.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 7 Sep 2009 12:53 pm

Jim, I respectfully want to point out that what you say is just not true. The guitar works very good. If you follow my directions above, it will not be drowned out by any of the other instruments anywhere near as easily as it will if you give everybody their own sm-57. Listen to the clips on www.lonemountainband.com Roy Curry takes a break on every song we do. No one ever has a problem hearing him, except when we use individual mics.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 7 Sep 2009 1:03 pm

OK Jim, so part of what you say is true. One mic in most cases will not let you be as loud as individuals with a good soundman. It don't work good at all with a dobro. It is better suited for traditional bluegrass. But, it works great on guitar, as long as you learn to use it. Don't put the mic right in front of the singers lips, pointed straight ahead, or up, and have the singer stand as close as he would an sm-58, and then expect to hear anything else except maybe the fiddle. Point it down a little, about neck high, and stand back a little. Set you sound at this position, and everybody learn where the sweet spot is and work it. You will hear the guitar. A guitar player who sings will have to actually play softer when singing to not drown out his vocal. My band has been doing this for about 11 years now.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 8 Sep 2009 10:29 am

I was born and grew up in western NC. Bluegrass everywhere. Traditional Bluegrass. My Dad played traditional Bluegrass for as long as I can remember and he and the guys he played with only used one mic. Dad played bass fiddle and finger style guitar, Earl Scruggs style. They worked great through one mic. They knew how to work the mic, and it sounded good.