What kind of Lap Steel (my first) for a dobro player?

Jim McCall · Post by **Jim McCall** » 15 Jul 2009 10:01 am

I have been lusting after a lap steel for a couple of years and have not bit yet. I play open G dobro bluegrass style and want to get a lap steel for more rocknrolly or altcountryish type music. I am just having a hard time with choosing an instrument and am soliciting advice. My gut is to want to get a new instrument with beautiful wood and a modern pickup, but I am not sure that choice is sound. I haven't played steels at all and there is little opportunity in the Bay Area to do so, so it is not as if I can go and demo a bunch of instruments to compare. I also don't want to spend a lot of money in case this new guitar just gathers dust. If I had lots of $$ I might buy an Asher guitar; if I wanted to spend less but still significant, I might to to the bluestem people. I wouldn't have a problem buying used gear at all.

There are so many options to select: single coil/humbucker. Different tunings. 21st century/20th century construction.

Thanks for any advice.
Jim

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 15 Jul 2009 10:16 am

I'd recommend a Goldtone Lap Steel. It's got a long scale so you won't be confused going back and forth between it and your dobro and it's relatively inexpensive.

Good luck!

Bill Hampton · Post by **Bill Hampton** » 15 Jul 2009 10:41 am

I second the Gold Tone. I bought one in six string at the local pawn shop and really like it.

One day I'll get around to learning C6 tuning, but for now I'm still learning open G on my dobro and don't need the confusion. The long scale and open G tuning make it easy to go back and forth from it to the dobro.

The Gold Tone is a copy of the old Oahu steels which you can also find fairly reasonable from time to time.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 15 Jul 2009 10:41 am

Hi Jim ... Twayns and Bills suggestion on scale length is a good one.

Here is a steel I recently built for a square neck player in much the same situation as you.
We went with a 25" scale and square neck string spacing at the bridge.
Based on the preference of his Tooter Meredith, we went with the walnut maple combo an a custom wound humbucker from BG-Pups.
Some pictures and more info in this thread
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=161011

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 15 Jul 2009 10:54 am

Tom, you gotta stop posting pic of your guitars

My bank account just can't take it

Seriously, when the day comes for me to get a custom new lap steel, you're the man!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Jul 2009 10:56 am

i'd get the cheapest thing i could find. lapsteel is alot different than dobro. get a cheap one first to see if you are even interested.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 15 Jul 2009 11:40 am

Like every other kind of instrument, a really cheap lap steel feels cheap, especially the bridge and pickup, and can be detrimental to the experience.

The Gold tones are nice instruments, but if you can find a vintage Oahu Tonemaster in decent condition, they have a nice mojo that encourages playing and practice.

Asher's Electro Hawaiian Jr. imports have a lot of the vibe of their much more expensive US cousins, and just need a bit of tweaking to play and sound amazing. The older ones are single pickup but the newer ones have two with a Les Paul type wiring setup, very versatile.

If you're looking for the same ergonomic feel as your reso, and can do without the wood look, let me recommend the Fouke Industrial lap steels. Chris has a model he makes for me with Dobro string height and width setup that makes switching over a breeze. They also have some acoustic volume for unplugged practice, being hollow, which helps with the transition. A lot of reso players have been really happy with those.
Let me know if I can help you get into one of those models.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 15 Jul 2009 2:17 pm

Hey Jim, I also play Dobro and like to do open G stuff on a lapsteel so I bought a Chandler six string lap steel which I love. It's got a volume and tone control and the string spacing is pretty close to my Dobro's. Also, I can use my Beard Dobro capo on it which is nice. It's got a nice shape and is solid mahogany. The pickup is an overwound single coil which works well with effects and can drive a distortion pedal very nicely if you're into slide guitar things......JH in Va.

Michael Papenburg · Post by **Michael Papenburg** » 15 Jul 2009 3:00 pm

Jim -

What part of California do you live in? I live in the SF Bay Area and would be open to letting you check out a few of my lap steels if it would help. I only have vintage ones at this point but it would give you a sense.

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 15 Jul 2009 5:38 pm

In the FWIW department: I also came from dobro and purchased a lap steel with a similar scale length and string spacing. But I also play an 8 string with the usual narrower spacing--and a short scale--and it is no trouble to go back and forth to dobro.

For tuning, I would suggest looking at E tuning (lo2hi E B E G# B E) because it will work with the same string gauges as G dobro, by moving over one string all the patterns you use from dobro will work, and it works for your listed genres.

I think the Asher would be a great choice. For a bit less money you could look at Cruztone or Lap King (Jerry Douglas plays a Lap King Bel Aire). On the lower end the Asher EHjr is a great deal.

Jim McCall · Post by **Jim McCall** » 16 Jul 2009 7:16 am

Thanks for all the great information. These are great replies! I obviously need to think.

Jim

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 16 Jul 2009 7:56 am

It is my opinion that any lap steel that has adequate shielding, holds its tuning, has adequate string count, has a non-microphonic pickup, and is compatible with your string-guage choice will make a good first Lap Steel.

I always urge people buying a first Lap Steel particlularly people that have 6-string Resophonics to get an 8-string first; unless they firmly want to stay with G-tuning.

These qualifications are not insignificant; as many used Lap Steels have plastic nuts which break-down over time and create tuning issues. Many used instruments have "issues" as the kids say.

Regards
-- Eugene@FJ45.com

Kirby Fergerson · Post by **Kirby Fergerson** » 16 Jul 2009 9:13 am

I agree that getting an eight string first is a good move. I bought a six and within two months I found myself wanting an eight.
I soon bought a Morrell jmptb eight. There are many excellent instruments out there, some can be a bit pricy.
As a transitional guitar player I looked for a decent quality reasonable cost guitar to give myself a chance to see if I was truly interested or just intrigued. Turns out I'm seriously addicted. Lap steel just gets a hold on you.
When I save enough pennies I hope to get a Clinesmith or Georgeboards guitar. Both make awesomelooking instruments.
Hope that don't confuse you any as everyone else has had good advice for you. Welcome to lap steel long may you slide.

Jim McCall · Post by **Jim McCall** » 16 Jul 2009 10:15 am

What is the alluring thing about 8 strings? Is it hard to play with that many strings? Mentally, is it difficult to start thinking about additional strings?

Michael Papenburg · Post by **Michael Papenburg** » 16 Jul 2009 10:25 am

Technically, the more strings that you have the more chordal options you have. There are some tunings that I use for my 6 string steels that are not complete.

For example, here is the G6 tuning I use:

D
B
G
E
D
B

The 8 string version would be:

D
B
G
E
D
B
G
E

As you can see, there are two octaves available with the 8 string tuning.

That being said, I personally do not feel the need for 8 strings. Much of the playing that I do is in the upper register so the lower notes went unused most of the time. Also, the extra strings and tighter string spacing were initially very confusing because I started on guitar. This confusion eventually went away but I still didn't use the lower strings very often. Most people seem to feel that you need at least 8 strings, though, so my opinion is in the minority.

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 16 Jul 2009 12:48 pm

Jim McCall wrote:...Is it hard to play with that many strings?...

I had two issues when I first started working on 8 strings: 1) the string spacing is narrower; and 2) the need to often skip a string in the common grips. The narrower string spacing required a few days of drills before I started to get some confidence in hitting the string(s) I meant to hit.

Since I was used to dobro G tuning, which is just two stacked major chords, I was used to playing different inversions by picking different groups of three adjacent strings. Once you get away from that tuning, for example to G6 as posted above, you have to get used to skipping the E string when playing major chords. In that case you would grip strings 1,2,3 or 2,3,5 or 3,5,6 etc. for different inversions of a major chord.

The relative minor is on strings 2,3,4 or 3,4,6, or 4,6,7 etc.

In this case you end up with three different grips cover major and minor chords using a straight bar, and it takes some repetition to get fluent in all three.

Notice that the 8 string G6 looks a lot more like dobro G tuning than does the 6 string version.

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 16 Jul 2009 1:34 pm

Eugene Cole wrote:I always urge people buying a first Lap Steel particularly people that have 6-string Resophonics to get an 8-string first; unless they firmly want to stay with G-tuning.

I knew as soon as I posted this that I was going to need to explain my reasoning. But I was dashing out the door to play designated driver to an Ex girlfriend that was having an outpatient surgery.

I am sure that some of you can say this better in-print than I will. If you can; then please do. OK here goes....

It is much easier to install a 6-string tuning on an 8-string instrument than it is to install an 8-string tuning on a 6-string instrument. I hold this truth to be self evident. On a first Lap Steel having all 8 strings expands ones options to include almost all of the time proven tunings that one might want to try and/or learn.

If you are playing basic 3-chord Rock & Roll or Folk tunes the 6-string tunings will do. The GBDGBD standard "Dobro" G-tuning is the most popular 6-string Steel tuning in the circles I travel in for a reason. If you are an elite player like Martin Gross or my local hero Mike Auldridge you can coax blood out of a 6-string and all ears within 100 meters will beg for more. However most of us need to stick to stick to the road more traveled much of the time to realize our best results.

Jim McCall wrote:What is the alluring thing about 8 strings? Is it hard to play with that many strings? Mentally, is it difficult to start thinking about additional strings?

In my opinion: Learning any new tuning always is initially challenging mentally. But the 6-string tunings have limitations which the addition of just 1 or 2 strings will reduce.

Many Steel guitar tunings are and were created for 8-string instruments and to chop them down to work on a 6 string instrument means compromises which can be substantial and which can render the tablature for music written for that tuning unusable.

It may just be my unique experience (but I doubt it); I started with a Dobro in the GBDGBD G-tuning and was frustrated with its limitations. When I got access to more strings and the C6 tuning I was LESS mentally challenged by the instrument and my learning curve got steeper. .

With C6 tuning just adding a 7th strings means that you can have 2 full major triads in addition to the (1) full minor triad. This in my opinion makes things much easier than trying to keep the tuning down to 6 strings. If you play any Swing at all not having access to full Sus6 chords changes the sound of the chord voicings to a sparser sound. It also means that you have to do a lot of string-pulls which further adds to the challenge of learning to play the instrument.

Regards
-E

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 16 Jul 2009 2:25 pm

agreed but, as I said on another thread. Sometimes perceived limitations can actually open a world rather than limit it.

So much of this is mental.

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 16 Jul 2009 3:32 pm

AJ Azure wrote:agreed but, as I said on another thread. Sometimes perceived limitations can actually open a world rather than limit it.

So much of this is mental.

AJ would you please expand on this statement and explain you point more clearly. I have a feeling that you have something in mind but it is not clear what you are thinking and how it relates to this discussion.

The issue of "mental" challenge is corollary to ones aptitudes. Some people intuitively find a solution in a given situation while other people will struggle with the same challenge.

-E

Michael Papenburg · Post by **Michael Papenburg** » 16 Jul 2009 3:42 pm

Some of you may find the following thread interesting:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 17 Jul 2009 7:12 am

Responding to the original question, I can highly recommend Bluestemstrings. Randy is a great guy to work with, and I am thrilled with the steel he built for me. It plays very easily and sounds fantastic.

Since what he built for me is one-of-a-kind, he is able to accomodate the player's requirements, so I'm sure he'd be able to build a steel that feels like your Dobro.

BTW, I play a lot more steel than reso (note: I said "more", I'm not saying how well I play anything...), but I don't really have an issue with the different scale length or string spacing -- my steels all have differnt spacings and scales, too. YMMV.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 17 Jul 2009 10:20 am

AJ Azure wrote:agreed but, as I said on another thread. Sometimes perceived limitations can actually open a world rather than limit it.

So much of this is mental.

+1

Having had both 6 and 8 string lap steel, I find the limitations of 6 strings to be liberating, i.e. there's less option anxiety. The only real problem I have playing swing standards on a 6-string tuned to B6 is that occasionally I run out of room on the bottom end, but it's fairly uncommon. When that happens, I usually play the tune an octave up instead.

There's a world of sound to be found in a 6 string C6/A7 tuned lap steel. Just listen to Jerry Bryd

However, this is not to say that I am in any way opposed to 8-strings and if someone were moving from dobro (6 strings) then making the jump to 8 strings would be less of a problem. If you can afford an 8 string, I'd say go for it! Then again, I'd say if you can afford a good console D8, go for that instead

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 18 Jul 2009 5:15 pm

Or you could buy an eight string like I did in 1967 and tune it in six string "G" and never change. Anybody want to trade a D6 for a D8 even up?

Bill Asher · Post by **Bill Asher** » 19 Jul 2009 7:26 am

Hi Jim,

I think you should also consider one of my Asher lap steels! I have had quite a few Dobro players like Rob Ickes, Jerry Douglas, and Mike Witcher, really like the feel and tone. They are a 25" scale and have a clear tone and wonderful sustain. The body and neck design is more like a full size guitar and this makes a big difference in feel when crossing over from Dobro. We also have a "Belly Bar" upgrade so you can stand up and play like one does with a Dobro. Please check out specs, sound bites, and video on my web site. Take a look at the Electro-Hawaiian models. If you want an entry level priced one my Electro-Hawaiian JR does the job very well.
http://asherguitars.com
Hope I can help.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 19 Jul 2009 8:08 am

Although, to an extent, you can eventually play anything you want on almost any tuning, I think the choice of number of strings and basic tuning comes down to what you're hearing in your head that you want to sound like.
If it's the sweet Hawaiian direction, or Byrdish early country, a 6th tuning might be definitely the way to go.
The availability of more chord and note choices makes 7 and 8 strings more attractive for those styles.
On the other hand, the Helms style is easily accessible with just 6 strings, and of course Byrd could pull wonders out of 6...
Western Swing seems to really benefit from additional strings, I can imagine putting a lifetime of study into Tom Morrel's 10 string tuning and never finding everything he did.

Rock and blues seem to really sit well in D or E tunings, and 6 strings offer plenty to work with.

Many of the Nashville players use open D (R,5,R,3,5,R) on reso sessions rather than the open G most bluegrassers use.
I remember being very impressed when we did some shows with the John Cowan band at how differently Randy Kohrs played on electric lap in open G than he did on Dobro. Really rocking.
For me, C6 and E13 8 string tunings for the classic stuff, and E on the 6 string for rock and blues, switching between my old Tonemaster and Asher E.H. Jr. (The two pickups on the Asher are really handy.)

The "limitations" of the 6 string G tuning to me are really inspiring, forcing you to find various ways to get partial minors and chord extensions, combining open strings with closed strings, etc. to get color tones and various scales not immediately apparent.
I think a lot of people look at the straight bar chords and a few open position scales and don't dig far enough. There's endless meat in open G.

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