Where to position a mic on an amp

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 18 Jun 2009 11:19 am

Where do you recommend positioning a mic on an amp; assuming:
1)the use of a omnidirectional mic (such as an SM58)draped over the top of the amp,
2)a single 15" Black Widow in a Peavey, and
3)the sound man really doesn't know anything?

More specifically my question is, should the ball of the mic be over the aluminum cone, near the edge, or somewhere in between?

I can't tell any difference from where I sit because I can't really hear the mains well enough, and I can't trust the feedback from the sound man, because to him everything sounds great.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 18 Jun 2009 11:56 am

I prefer in most cases, the mic positioned closer to the outer edge of the speaker. The tone tends to get a little brighter the closer you get to the speaker center..
Hook

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 18 Jun 2009 12:02 pm

And I guess there isn't an extra mic stand available for your mic?

Chuck Snider · Post by **Chuck Snider** » 18 Jun 2009 12:15 pm

If you're using a Shure SM58 mic, it is not omnidirectional as you say, but is instead a cardoid pattern, and having it draped over the top of the amp will not necessarily be the best. Having it like that you are picking up the sound outside of the "sweetspot" of the mic. I would suggest acquiring a mic stand that allows you to aim the top end of the SM58 more towards the speaker, as if you were pointing a flashlight at the speaker. Then, you could tweak which part of the speaker it is aimed at specifically. But the way you describe how you currently use it, you are missing a lot of signal from the speaker. That particular mic should work for that, but you do need to aim it different than you are now.

-Chuck

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 18 Jun 2009 12:37 pm

when I was doing front of house sound for a local club, the head guy told me to aim the mic at where the cap meets cone.

I think mic placement is more of an issue when recording, where 1/4 inch difference in mic placement is huge. having it hang over your amp is not ideal, but I dont think its a huge problem in a loud live situation.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 18 Jun 2009 1:07 pm

Sounds like I need to determine exactly what kind of mic they have been using. It looks like an SM58, but I am not really sure what it is. I suppose the more important question regarding the mic is determining whether it is omnidirectional or cardoid. (I forgot about all that stuff. Thanks for reminding me.) If the mic is omnidirectional, than draping it over the amp is perhaps ok. But if the mic is cardoid then it should be on a stand pointed at the speaker. At least that's what I think I'm hearing from you. Thanks for the tips.

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 18 Jun 2009 1:25 pm

I have been using an SM58 hung from the handle of My amp,off centre.
I have just ordered a Mini mic stand,I think the mic will perform better in a "head on" position.
Am I correct in thinking that the SM 58 is the best mic for this purpose?
Best regards
Billy

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Jun 2009 2:40 pm

Pointed at where the cap meets the cone is what I've always heard and observed from soundmen who seem to know. And like was said above, the Shure should be on a stand pointed at the speaker. There are flat shaped mikes meant to hang by the cord against the speaker cloth.

Jim Dickinson · Post by **Jim Dickinson** » 18 Jun 2009 2:41 pm

The SM58 is sort of a Maid-of-all work microphone, it's amazing what people use it for. In reality, it does not do anything really well, there is another microphone that will do a specific job better, just not one that will do all it does, it just refuses to be retired, I guess everyone knows how to use it, so it stays in use. I have not done a live sound job in a couple of years, but, I used to use the other ubiquitous microphone, to mic guitar amps, an SM57. I would put it on a short stand about 6 inches in front of the cabinet, slightly off center from the speaker. I found if one got the mic to close to the speaker, the microphone, almost any of them, would overload on bass notes.

My 2 cents, Jim

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 18 Jun 2009 2:50 pm

-Jay Kardong pointed out to me that having the mic closer to the outer edge produces a warmer tone. Since I tend to sound shrill I prefer this method. I guess if you tend to sound dull then closer to the cap would brighten things a bit.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 18 Jun 2009 3:26 pm

Placing the mic towards the edge of the speakers cone should give you less overall volume, but also less dynamic range. so less treble, BUT less bass too.

It probably isnt a big enough deal to get worked up about, but if you are trying to maximize your tone...and who isnt?... or sometimes struggle with not having enough volume, i would think it might be prefereable to deal with shrillness some other way, perhaps the tone controls on the amp.

Both Steve and Jay sound great live tho so like i said, it probably doesnt make too much diff in a live situation.

Stephen Silver · Post by **Stephen Silver** » 18 Jun 2009 3:40 pm

Most engineers I have worked with, live and studio, have a dynamic mic roughly 4-6 inches off the grill cloth, angled into the speaker about 2 inches outside of the cone. And most frequently it is an SM57 or Sennheiser 421.

I did a long session yesterday (10 tunes) and the engineer used an SM57 on one side and an Audix E1 (I believe) on the other side of the speaker.

The Audix sounded much better to all of us in the control room. The SM57 tracks were deleted.

SS

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 18 Jun 2009 5:54 pm

I use a 12" gooseneck, a mic clip, and a SM58.
I put the end of the goose neck under the amp handle and point the mic the way Stephen described above.
The goose neck fits flat on the floor of the amp to travel.
There is a lighter weight black clip on goose neck that clips onto the cabinet and works well.. i just haven't found one yet.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 18 Jun 2009 6:56 pm

Is a Sennheiser 609 Silver Face. They're cheep, close to 100 bucks, Flat so you put the silver face side towards the amp draped from the top, and it sounds just like your guitar. No need for a mike stand with these microphones.

Wayne

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 18 Jun 2009 7:24 pm

It sounds like there is a consensus that the mic (assuming cardoid) should be oriented with the tip pointed at the speaker and about at the edge of the aluminum cone, or slightly further out from center; Which necessitates use of a stand. I hear some of you saying the mic can be flush against the grill cloth, and others saying it should sit a few inches out from the grill cloth.

I am not in the market to buy a mic. But if I was, I would certainly consider a Shure SM57 or SM58, or a Sennheiser E609, as suggested by W Franco in the last post and also in a private email sent to me on the subject. The Sennheiser has the benefit of being designed to be draped over an amp, which I like. Plus its relatively inexpensive. Has anyone tried this particular Sennheiser?

Thanks to all for the input.

Rick Kreuziger · Post by **Rick Kreuziger** » 18 Jun 2009 7:57 pm

I'm using the Sennheiser mic...
works very well.
Sound company we hired last weekend liked it well enough to use

Although I normally use it hung, they did set it up with a stand.

Rick

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 18 Jun 2009 8:09 pm

My $.02:

If the mic is going to be draped over the top of the amp, it should be positioned so the "equator" band on the mic (assuming a "ball" mic a la 58) lines up with the cap-cone joint at the bottom of the cap. (If not a ball mic, try to approximate the same placement.)

If the mic is on a stand, I prefer that it be pointed at a spot about 1 1/2"-2" away from the edge of the cap, usually along the radius that points to 4:30 or 7:30, angled so that the center line of the mic body is perpendicular to the plane of the cone (not the grillcloth).

Louis Vallee · Post by **Louis Vallee** » 19 Jun 2009 12:26 am

I'm using an Sennheiser E609 Silver Face hung from the handle of my amp 2 inches outside of the cone. No need for a mike stand with the E609.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 19 Jun 2009 7:15 am

For my own band and others I do sound for, I use Shure SM-57 mikes exclusively! I only have one small stand so I use that for mine and just drape them over the amps for the others. I really can't tell much of a difference either way. You've got your PA EQ to eliminate any differences you'd have. I don't like to use an SM-58 or 48 draped over an amp as the ball on the end sort of pushes the mike away from the speaker as a 57 lays flat. I always position them exactly halfway between the center of the cone and the edge. On the PA, I set everything flat with no effects and "tweak" as needed, usually no "tweaking" is needed at all......JH in Va.

Alan Kirk · Post by **Alan Kirk** » 19 Jun 2009 7:29 am

Microphone placement is the essence of the "art" of sound reinforcement and recording. There is no "one size fits all" spot for mic placement. It's a matter of context.

In the earlier days of microphones, there was no EQ, compressor, etc. Your primary means of tone control was mic placement. Just moving a mic a 1/2" this way or that can greatly affect the tone. You have to experiment.

When you see an audio engineer cranking on the EQ, he probably doesn't know what he's doing. Tin ears. You're supposed to fiddle with the mic placement first, then judiciously nudge the EQ. Every time you turn a knob on the PA console, you are coloring the sound, moving it away from the performer's intention. EQ pretty much always adds distortion, too, except in very high-end consoles. Use as little as possible.

Is the sound from your amp thick and full or thin? This would make a difference when choosing not only microphone placement, but when choosing the microphone itself.

How does your sound fit within the overall sound of the group? Do you need thinning? Fattening? Everything just right?

An audio engineer with "ears" will try to weave you into the sound tapestry, so you have your own "slot" in the EQ/timbre spectrum, so the treble and upper mids from your amp are not interfering with the vocals (the most important element of the band).

You have to use your ears, every time you set up and play.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Jun 2009 7:55 am

But if the mic is cardoid then it should be on a stand pointed at the speaker.

Most mikes will work just about any way. If you're in a studio, it makes a difference. In that case, most engineers recommend pointing the mike midway between the surround and the dust cap. But if you're playing live, it's probably not going to make much difference as long as it's relatively close to the speaker. (The tone and mix settings on the sound system will be a lot more important and crucial than the mike placement.)

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Jun 2009 12:54 pm

What Chuck Snider said.

If I know amps will be mic'd at a gig I still always bring a stand, as 25% of the time some sound guy will want to use the "drape" method, which is tonally inferior.

In the studio I've spent 20-30 minutes moving a mic in a close-mic position to find the "sweet spot". It varies by speaker, and even then moves depending on how loud you are playing.

There is not one place. You have to try various positions while playing to find the spot that works. But don't drape a mic over an amp - even if it's an omni you can pick up all kinds of vibrations and buzzes.

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 21 Jun 2009 12:26 am

All I know about Mic placement is the last time I did a session the engineer came and took the Mic off of my amp and told me to go home...... Hmmmm I wonder if the Mic broke??

Sorry guys I couldn't resist!

Big Bob aka ex session player.... Gregg PLEASE No Comment Galbreath that is

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Jun 2009 3:16 am

It's already been said, but

1. Use a uni-directional mic like a cardioid or supercardioid pattern, not an omnidirectional mic. An omni will pick up all kinds of extraneous stuff, feed back if the guitar is in the monitors, or perhaps even if not.

[BTW - a Shure SM-58 is not omni-directional, but has a cardioid pattern - http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/ ... CN_content. To my tastes, these are OK, but I prefer an SM-57 for loud instrument micing like this. But a 58 is pretty routinely used.]

2. Don't drape the mic over the amp - this puts the speaker sound field largely out of the effective field of a cardioid or supercardioid pattern. Put it on a stand and - for a live gig - get the mic fairly close to the amp. It should be close enough to get a good signal-to-noise ratio, but not so close as to pick up mechanical vibrations. You should know about the so-called "proximity effect" - this means that bass response of many microphones increases as it gets very close to the sound source. You can use that to your benefit - if you want more bass, move it closer; less bass, move it away a bit. I'm talking about very small distances in a close-micing situation.

3. As Alan says, the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone is not cut and dried. But in general, somewhere between the cone and speaker edge is most appropriate if you want a clean and uncolored signal. I think mic placement perpendicular to the plane of the speaker cone, about halfway between the dust cap and speaker edge, is a good place to start. I agree that in a live gig situation that it's not as critical as studio mic placement. But if you're not in something like a real loud punk or hardcore band and you care about trying to articulate a clean front-of-house and monitor sound, it matters enough to spend a little bit of time getting it right. I also agree with Alan that extreme EQing to fix bad mic placement is a real bad idea. If it doesn't sound good with that initial nominal placement without any EQ at all, I'd adjust the mic a bit first and then if nothing sounds right, then and only then adjust the EQ as little as possible to correct the issues. If, as you suggest, the sound man has tin ears, then your mic placement is all the more critical - carefully place the mic and tell him to leave the EQ of your guitar channel alone.

I have to admit that I often cringe at live sound in small clubs, including sometimes when I'm playing. Unless the audience really likes or is indifferent to obnoxious, shrill noise - and some audiences do or are - I think bad sound is as influential as bad playing in driving audience members away from a gig, and if it persists, a band in general.

My take.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Where to position a mic on an amp

Where to position a mic on an amp

The best mike I have ever used for a live situation