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Topic: frequently used Ext E9th tuning? good examples of Ext E? |
Al Moss
From:
Kent,OH,USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 5:47 pm |
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-been thinking about trying an Extended E and I've looked through a number of posts in the "search" of pedal steel topics and have to admit that I've got a bit of confusion as to what's a more common or, more frequently used set of pedal and lever changes with the Extended E9th tuning. Is there one set of changes that tends to be a more accepted version of where to start on an Extended E copedent?
Also-- could anyone point out some good recorded examples of Ext E in action, ones say in which the Extended E tuning really informs the spirit of the piece of music?
Last edited by Al Moss on 4 May 2009 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2009 6:14 pm
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Extended E9th adds an 11th string G# and a 12th string E (tuned the same as a guitar's low E). The B pedal raises the 11th string G# to A along with the other two G#'s.
Some people raise the 12th string E to F on their F lever. Others (myself included) lower the low E to C# on the F lever instead.
Other than that, it's just a regular E9th "extended" into the lower range with two extra strings.
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 3 May 2009 2:16 pm
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I'm with b0b on dropping the 12st E down to C# on the KL that raises the 4th/8th from E-F. It provides a low root note for the C#- A-ped/F-lever position. I have it on both my Ext E9th guitars.
JE:-)>
_________________
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Al Moss
From:
Kent,OH,USA
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Posted 4 May 2009 7:32 am
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| I've amended the topics of the post to inquire about good recorded examples of Ext-E9th playing. |
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Scott Appleton
From:
Ashland, Oregon
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Posted 4 May 2009 8:13 am ext
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| the PF 4 pedal in ist position and his " the Lever" are good additions to the standard Emmons tuning so it would be a 5 and 4 pedal set up .. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 4 May 2009 8:48 am
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Here is the setup I'm putting on a D12 I am about to sell. It is the most conventional Ext. E9 I could come up with.
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Carter E9 Extended
LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
P1 P2 P3 P4
1 F# G, G# +1
2 D# E -1 D, C# -1
3 G# A +1/2
4 E F +1/2 Eb -1/2 F# +1
5 B Bb -1/2 C# +1 C# +1 A -1
6 G# A +1/2 F# -1
7 F# G# +1
8 E F +1/2
9 D C# -1/2
10 B Bb -1/2 Eb -1/2 C# +1 A -1
11 G# A +1/2
12 E
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If I were going to keep it I would put the E lowers on RKL (like Paul Franklin), but it seems to be more popular to have that on LKR (like Buddy Emmons). Also, some people would put the Franklin pedal on the far left rather than the far right. The low C# on the F lever mentioned above seems like a good idea.
It will be interesting to see if anyone comes up with some recorded samples using the low strings. The problem is that the low strings are of little use in traditional country music. They get lost in the mud of the mix, and are just not part of the classic country pedal steel sound. They are useful in rock, blues, jazz, and classical music; but there are not a lot of examples of that. You might get more examples if you started a new thread specifically asking for Ext. E9 samples in the title. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 4 May 2009 9:02 am
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| Another interesting pedal would be one that raises string 1 F# to G#, raises string 2 D# to E, raises string 7 F# to G#, and raises string 9 D to E. This gives a Sacred Steel-like all-E-chord tuning for strumming, with no out-of-chord strings to skip. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 May 2009 10:57 am
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I play a U-12, and the E9 side is a slightly different extended E9. I don't have the open D string, but get the D note on a knee lever, and my strings 9 through 12 are B (raises to C# an the A pedal), G# (Raises to A on the B pedal), E (Lowers to C# on the E-F knee lever and again on a second knee lever so I have bass notes for both the C# major and minor chords), and Low B (Lowers to A on the A pedal so I have a bass note for the A Chord.)
This song on this rock and roll video is in the key of A, and shows how I use that low bass note on the 12th string.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 May 2009 1:25 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
A U-12 as demonstrated in Mike's clip goes lower than Extended E9th. Also, U-12 requires a knee lever to get the middle D note. You don't need that lever on Extended E9th.
They are two different tunings.
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Just to clarify, b0b's tuning is THE extended E9. This is the standard E9 with 2 extra strings.
What I would have if the B6 pedals were eliminated would be AN extended E9, a different version of the tuning with some similarities and some differences.
As both b0b and I pointed out, my tuning does not have the standard 9th string. I have to use a knee lever to get the note, and that means I can't get the sounds that one can get on a standard or extended E9 by using the 8th and 9th strings together. Instead I get that extra super low bass.
Like everything else, it's a trade off.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 4 May 2009 1:52 pm
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| Jeff Newman's "Once in a Lifetime". |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 May 2009 2:58 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
They are two different tunings.
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Just to clarify, b0b's tuning is THE extended E9. This is the standard E9 with 2 extra strings.
What I would have if the B6 pedals were eliminated would be AN extended E9, a different version of the tuning with some similarities and some differences. |
I don't think that you can call a tuning E9th if it doesn't have a 7th tone (D) in it. Just my opinion.
Extended E9th and U-12 are two different tunings. I've never played U-12 and I'm a fish out of water on E9th without the D string.
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 4 May 2009 6:20 pm
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Mike, that low, low A is killer. What guage string do you have to use for that?
Years ago, another steeler invited me to sit in for a few songs, and I didn't realize he tuned the 9th string to C#. Boy, did that mess me up!
I use strings 6 through 10 a lot for scale runs (without bendiing a note,) and using a pull to get the E or B to d or C# would mean losing the original note for the run. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 May 2009 6:44 pm
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Rich, my lowest string is a 68. Standard gauge for an E9/B6 uni.
b0b, just as you'd get in trouble without the 9th string, so too would I if I sat down at a guitar that had one. I agree that the D note is very important, and I use the knee lever that drops my 8th string down to it all the time. But since I never had that note on a separate string, I don't know what I'm missing.
But I must say, I like having those low notes. 
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 4 May 2009 7:22 pm
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Well, there you have it. I would say this is a great example of how the additional low strings of Ext. E9 help with doing C6 style Western Swing on E9.
I agree that Ext. E9 and E9/B6 12-string uni are completely different tunings. I tried Ext. E9, but quickly moved on to uni. On my CD with the Philadelphia Blues Messengers (see below) there are some examples of rhythm and solos on the low strings of a uni, but that is not particularly relevant to Ext. E9, so I didn't mention it before. I would still be very interested to hear how Ext. E9 players are using the low strings in various genres. There are a number of Ext. E9 players on the Forum. Earnest Bovine has some great stuff if he will post it. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 7:12 am
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And here is Extended E9th in a gospel context. It's double tracked, and both tracks extend down to the low strings at various points.
<center>
http://soundhost.net/b0b/gospel/It_Is_No_Secret.mp3
</center>
The main point of Extended E9th is that there isn't anything special, other than the extra range. You don't need to learn new pedals, and what you play on the low strings is very similar to the things that you already know on the 5th, 6th and 8th strings.
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 5 May 2009 8:40 am
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| David Doggett wrote: |
I agree that Ext. E9 and E9/B6 12-string uni are completely different tunings. |
Different, yes, I woudn;t call them COMPLETELY different. After all the top 8 strings are the same.
The points I wish to make are that bass strings on the E9 side of the uni and the regular extended E9 each have both possibilities and limitations not found on the other, and that even without the B6 pedals, the open tuning found on a uni is a viable alternative to the "real" extended E9.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 8:55 am
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Extended E9th adds two strings to include the lower range of a standard guitar. That's all.
U-12 includes most of the range of the electric bass, and requires an additional knee lever change to fully emulate E9th. It also includes most of the standard C6th pedal changes, moved down a half-step to B6th.
If you already play 10-string E9th, the 12-string Extended E9th is easier to play than U-12, in my opinion. You can keep your existing copedent, and just add one pull for the new low G# string, like David Doggett does in his chart above.
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 5 May 2009 10:30 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| U-12 includes most of the range of the electric bass, and requires an additional knee lever change to fully emulate E9th. |
This is true. I get the missing D note by lowering my 8th string. Other uni players get it be raising their 9th from B to D, and one person I know raises both the 9th and 10th, from B to D and G# to B respectively, so he can get the full standard E9 on strings 1 through 10.
But as the saying goes: "It's all good."
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 5 May 2009 10:41 am
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Okay, Mike, maybe "completely" different was an exageration. I certainly look on a uni as identical to 10-string E9 in the top and middle, and modified and extended on the bottom.
And b0b is right that with the 7th removed from the open strings, it is an E maj7 sus2 tuning. But it's always been called an E9/B6 tuning, although it really is neither of these without the action of a lever.
My experience is different from b0b's. When I moved from 10-string E9 to 12-string extended E9 I had great difficulty with the new low grips. But when I tried a 12-string E9/B6 uni, the absence of the D string cleared everything up and I found it much easier to play. That, plus the low root of the A-pedal minor chord, and all the B6 stuff just made it a no-brainer choice for me. But I had never made much use of the D string. Someone who uses the D string a lot will have a different experience. When I do use the lever to get the D, I enjoy the fact that when the lever is released the open string usually becomes part of the next chord and doesn't have to be blocked.
Mighty purty Gospel, b0b. 
BTW, b0b's solo Gospel tune well illustrates how beautiful the low strings sound on solo steel when harmonizing. Unfortunately, when you play with a group, the low strings are down in the bass and drum mud and don't work out nearly as well as they do for solo steel. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 2:32 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| Unfortunately, when you play with a group, the low strings are down in the bass and drum mud and don't work out nearly as well as they do for solo steel. |
Most of what I do on the low strings is accompaniment, not lead. When the guitarist is taking a ride, I drop down and fill the hole there with rhythmic chops or pads. It doesn't really sound like steel guitar, but it kept me working in quartets for many years when other steel players were only hired when there was money for a fifth wheel.
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 5 May 2009 4:22 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| Most of what I do on the low strings is accompaniment, not lead. When the guitarist is taking a ride, I drop down and fill the hole there with rhythmic chops or pads. |
Yeah, that's what I do. In my blues group I play a lot of rhythm power chords when I am not doing a lead. And sometimes I duplicate the bass line. It sounds low for steel, but is actually an octave above the bass. Almost all of my lead stuff is done on the high strings. On one song on our CD they insisted I take a ride on the low strings. It's a funk-jazz fusion number (Funk Meditation for Peace), and they thought the low strings sounded cool for that. But it was cut out of the short version that got played a few times on the local college station (WXPN, Johnny Meister's Blues Show). |
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