If YOU use "UPS" to ship with YOU need to read

Gary Arnold · Post by **Gary Arnold** » 1 May 2009 11:08 am

When you use "UPS" this is what happens to a brand new "Steel Guitar". I am including pictures of the flight case for you to see but what you can't see is the damage to the changer on the guitar, you can't tune all the pedals or knee levers and when you do get one in tune the open tuning of the string is detuned and it will not return to pitch with out pushing the pedal up & down or side to side untill they return and then they are not in tune. This is the "Ringer" UPS refuses to pay for the damage. It was inspected for shipping at the UPS shipper, insured for $4,000.00, and requested a signature at the time of delivery. It was damaged by UPS shippers somewhere along the way to my house and it was left on my front porch & where I live is out in the country and any one could have picked it up and no one would have known it had been delivered untill I called to try and find it, no one was there untill my wife came in and found it so that meant no signature and the hole in the side was in plane view but there was no one to tell about it because the UPS truck was long gone. I have already sold my other steel now I have nothing to play, ant that a "Horses A--"

.......gary

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 1 May 2009 11:18 am

sue them immediately and include mental anguish!

Gary Arnold · Post by **Gary Arnold** » 1 May 2009 11:34 am

chris ivey wrote:sue them immediately and include mental anguish!

That mental anguish part could cost'um

.......gary

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 1 May 2009 12:42 pm

I work for UPS and I can tell you that this is SOP ! UPS denies EVERY damage claim and you have to take them to court to get your money. They have a room full of Attorneys in Atlanta and 5 billion in the bank. If you were the one that paid for the shipping,then you have to take them to court. If the manufacturer is the one that paid for shipping, THEY have to be the ones to take them to court. You should not be out your money. I hate to say this,but,it might be a good idea for you to "lawyer up"

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 1 May 2009 3:20 pm

You have no claim at all with UPS. Whoever shipped to you - manufacturer, dealer, regular Joe - owes you every penny of your money back or an identical instrument delivered in good working order. The shipper has to make a claim with UPS, get the package back and decide whether it's worth it to take on the task of pursuing a claim (it's often not).
You shouldn't have to do anything except have the item and it's packaging ready for UPS to pick up. It's the shippers problem 100 percent.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 1 May 2009 3:54 pm

John,
Thank you for explaining that better than I did ! You are 100% correct.

Gary Arnold · Post by **Gary Arnold** » 1 May 2009 4:37 pm

You are right and I am not trying to file a claim,the manufacturer has filed the claim and I am not having any trouble with the maker

.......gary

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 May 2009 4:47 pm

John Allisn is correct - the seller has to file the claim, and if it was dropped with no signature I'll bet there will be little problem - as long as the paperwork really WAS filled out correctly at the shipping end.

UPS denies EVERY damage claim and you have to take them to court to get your money.

These comments serve no purpose. I hear these "I used to work for..." often and there's always more to the story.

FACT - the statement is wrong, as I've had 3 claims - none of which was denied. All were paid within 2 weeks.

It's always the shady claims I read about that are denied. some small detail was "missed" - and it's UPS...or FedEx...or whoever's...fault.

Gary Arnold · Post by **Gary Arnold** » 1 May 2009 5:47 pm

This thread was posted to show you what can happen to you, me or anybody when something shipped with any company can be damaged and how you can come out on the short end of the stick. I have never worked with UPS, I have never filed a claim with UPS, Fedex or USPS that has not been paid and this sure is not a shady claim and all I want is my Pedal Steel delivered to my house with out being damaged. If you can't look at the pictures and see the damage and know that the damage to the changer happened then you must be blind. The manufacture of this guitar has done and is doing every thing the right and above board way to get me what I want and UPS wants to turn a deaf ear and don't forget you could be the next damage report

.......gary

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 1 May 2009 6:12 pm

The only time I ever had a rotten experience, it was my own fault. I sent off a custom instrument in a hand-built custom case and shipped it through another company. The place on the computer-screen form for insured value didn't get filled in and wouldn't you know it...that was the one shipment that got damaged - pretty badly, too.
I had to bite the bullet and refund every penny I'd been paid. UPS was entirely at fault and entirely responsible, but after a couple of months of jumping through paperwork hoops, I gave up and wrote it off. I repaired the instrument and case and sold it at a loss. All in all I only lost a few hundred bucks and a lot of hours of extra work, but I learned a heck of a lesson.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 1 May 2009 10:43 pm

Gary, I too have had packages come through much like that. The only thing is: You showed pictures of the Box, the Case, but not any picture of the damage to the Steel?

That would be the important thing to have shown a picture of.. From what damage I seen there in reality, could have been very minimal damage to the actual steel itself?

But you are right, stuff happens at times. But as Jim said. I've never had any problems with them sending someone to inspect, and bingo. Problem solved without any lawsuits involved.

Remember, there ARE all kinds of people in this world, and many are capable of doing most anything.

Don

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 2 May 2009 5:36 am

I Had 2 Cases Completley Destroyed and 2 Guitars Damaged, Sorry Mr Gilliam The Driver Forgot To Shut The Back Door On The Truck and We are Not Responsible For The 18 Wheeler That Did a Hit and Run On Your Package,It Was Not Properly Packaged There Fore You Will Receive The Shaft Again, And By The Way Mr. Gilliam Have a Really Nice Day.! I Will Never Use UPS Again,Even If It Was Free,They SUCK.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 May 2009 9:57 am

To Randy I ask - what's the WHOLE story? Because automobile insurance covers that kind of accident, which has zero to do with packaging. There's a lot of information missing.

This is another case of a short, slamming post being made without any details. "They suck" is something I could say about several shippers...but I don't because in each problem there was usually a shipping-end error, and it's 99.9% sure the packer is the "suckee".

UPS "approving" of a packing job does NOT mean your package can't be damaged.

The rule of thumb of most of the shippers (based on warehouse procedures) is to pack everything to survive a 6-8' fall onto concrete. That's the high point of the conveyors, and if something is dropped it's usually because of a conveyor jam ( which have been caused by irregular-sized packages, exposed parts (like handles), access holes (if re-using a box put tape over them) string, loose tape or anything that can get caught.

Normally this type of protection is gained by using 6+ inches of hard foam in ALL corners, wrapping the item in 1/2" fanfold foam board (found at any building supply house - not Home Depot, Lowes or retail places) and air pillows as "loose fill". "Peanuts" are OK ONLY as loose-fill - NEVER, EVER as something to protect corners, as they shift (they're also a total pain for the buyer, so I only use them if I absolutely have to, and try to put them in bags).

All this doesn't eliminate *internal* damage, but it significantly reduces it. But sellers should know how to pack - for example, shipping an amp with a nice double-box, hard foam in the corners - but leaving the open area in the back unfilled - is negligent. I've had tubes fall out, incorrectly-mounted speakers tear loose and destroy speakers AND tubes; all the seller needed to do was pack the back tightly with bubble wrap or air pillows (I usually remove and wrap power and rectifiers, but leave covered preamp tubes in place). This will prevent things from busting loose and flying all over the open back, a common complaint posted about UPS, FedEx, whoever - when it has NOTHING to do with them.

Then there are cases where *real* accidents happen - a forklift through a box; a package run over by a truck; a small box sucked into conveyor machinery.

And what I have found (and heard the same from others) is that if the SHIPPING party files a claim right away when notified by the receiving party of damage UPS, FedEx, the USPS all get right on it. But wen the receiving party tries to file a claim ti screws things up - they are not the UPS (or whoever) customer! They DO need to report obvious package damage, but on a drop-of (no sig) shipment report it to the SHIPPER, not the carrier - but internal damage can only be reported to the shipper. You can call Fed Ex o UPS a hundred times and NOTHING will happen until THEIR customer - the shipper - files a claim.

I have shipped upwards of 5,000 packages via various services and received at least twice that. I've had 3 UPS damage claims on personal stuff, plus at least a dozen against shippers for bad packaging (which has nothing to do with UPS or whoever) (many more on business shipments - but again, never a glitch in the handling of a claim).

One of the UPS claims was intiated by UPS. They called to tell me a package was damaged and that they wanted to let me know it was being returned to the shipper - who ended up refunding my money. The others were concealed damage - I sent pics to UPS of the packing and damage, they called me every 2-3 days with updates on processing, and both were paid in full PLUS I was told to keep the item. No one had to come out and inspect anything. No runaround.

So my advice is this - READ the shipping agreement, even if you are the receiving party. KNOW how damage claims are handled. Because if you follow the rules, you'll have no problem. I have yet to hear of a denied claim where anyone could prove they did everything by the book (reminds of eBay, where few bidders read the entire listing and get pissed when their check is mailed back to them...and complain the eBay didn't help them).

It's all very easy if parties at both ends just do things right.

Jimmy Lewis · Post by **Jimmy Lewis** » 2 May 2009 10:49 am

Mr. Sliff if you don't believe UPS will not pay for damages try haveing something damaged by them and see what happens. I had a $3,000 ham radio damaged by them and they refused to pay even though it was packaged properly, they had sufficient evidence the package was damaged, and the paperwork was filled out properly filed. Before you make statements like you so commonly do check out the facts before you bash someone. If you won't like my opion then don't read it.

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 2 May 2009 11:10 am

Mr Siff Anybody Who would Take Up For Ups After Buying Insurance And Refuseing all Damage Claims,Well I Wont say You suck Like You Replied about Me ,But I cant wait Till It Happens Too You.Their Own Employees Said They Wont Play a claim, So On Second Thought.By The Way Mr Siffels Have a Really Great Day.

Jimmy Lewis · Post by **Jimmy Lewis** » 2 May 2009 11:59 am

Amen Randy I agree with you entirely.

Rich Gardner · Post by **Rich Gardner** » 2 May 2009 12:43 pm

I, too, have heard horror stories about UPS and guitars. I just bought a Rickenbacker 660/12 from some guy on Ebay and it was shipped from Tupelo, MS via UPS. It arrived yesterday in perfect condition. This is not the first guitar received via UPS. I have never had a problem.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 3 May 2009 2:22 am

To Jim Sliff, You should get your eyes checked or have read my post a little closer ! There is no USED to work for in my case. I DO WORK FOR UPS ! Your dismissing my statement is somewhat smug,then again...you're the expert,not me.

DSR

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 3 May 2009 5:35 am

I suppose the law of averages says the more you ship the more likely you are to have issues with a carrier. In my business (guitars) we ship as follows:

1. Parts and accessories under $500 (domestic/international) goes USPS Priority.
2. As above over $500 domestic goes UPS, International goes USPS Express.
3. Guitars domestic goes UPS insured for retail value.
4. Guitars international goes FedEx.

All guitars ship in our own standard packaging. An average insured value is $3,000. We probably average a single claim a year, some with visible exterior damage, some not. We've never been denied a claim by a carrier. As a business we have a local rep (with each carrier, including USPS) who is familiar with our packaging methods. As questions may arise, we save all packaging for inspection. Sometimes we arrange for inspection at the customer's site.

For customers returning instruments for restoration we instruct how to package their guitars and request they do not go to the UPS/FedEx/Kinko stores. The customer can do a far better job for far less money.

We've tried other carriers and methods with less satisfactory results.

As the shipper we are responsible for insuring a happy outcome. It's on us if anything goes haywire.

h

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 3 May 2009 10:53 am

Randy's guitar arrived damaged with smashed case (75 lb female driver delivering an 80# D-10)and the following week I got a banjo with a broken neck! They rot!

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 3 May 2009 5:34 pm

So Dave what's the problem

Gary Arnold · Post by **Gary Arnold** » 3 May 2009 6:46 pm

Hey guys lets not have a falling out over this UPS thing, all of us that uses any carrier knows when you ship there is a 50/50 chance it could get damaged, even though thats not the way it is suppose to be, we pay good money to ship our items and those employees of these carriers get paid really good money to throw our stuff around. For some good news: My steel will be on it's way back to Canada this week and yes it's a "FULAWKA", Mr. Ed called and assured me that every thing is covered even if UPS refuses to pay the claim. Good luck to those of you who have never had a claim turned down, I hope you never do on some thing that means a lot to you.

......gary

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 3 May 2009 9:11 pm

Stuart Thats a Good One, I Took care Of Dave No Problem. When a Steel Is in a Case There Is No Reason For UPS Workers To Let a 70 Or 80 Pound Steel Go Up The Coveyor Belt and Drop 8 Too 10 Feet On a Cement Floor And Then Deny Your Insurance Claim, I Paid Them To Shipp It Not Destroy it, And what Is Insurance For,So They Can Make More Money On You, Not all the UPS Workers Operate This way But a Few Do,The One I Use,So Like I said Before,They Got Their Last Pennie From me , When Fedex Starts Operating That Way I Will Quit Buying and selling,Sorry I Get a Little Hot Cause all I Have Ever Got Out Of Insurance Companys Is The Shaft.Hope You Boys have better Luck? Randy Gilliam

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 May 2009 7:16 am

Mr. Sliff if you don't believe UPS will not pay for damages try haveing something damaged by them and see what happens.

Perhaps you should read my post again....and the others who jumped on the bandwagon.

I HAVE had damages, and have had ZERO problems with claims. None. And one was INITIATED by UPS, who called ME to let me know there was a problem.

Well I Wont say You suck Like You Replied about Me ,But I cant wait Till It Happens Too You.

I didn't say "you suck" - but I will say "you can't read".

Before you make statements like you so commonly do check out the facts before you bash someone. If you won't like my opion then don't read it.

Errrr - but it's OK for you to read my FACTUAL statement - NOT an "opinion" - and bash it, right?

Let's see - someone voices an opinion without facts or detailed evidence to back it up...then another person posts facts about claims, but is told he shouldn't because...errrr, why was it again? Because the "opinion" sure doesn't carry much weight when there are facts that refute it.

To the current UPS employee who insists they never pay a claim - you must work in a location run by some renegade management, because your statement is factually incorrect, and if you would like tracking numbers on claims I've had handled I could probably dig them out of my files - but I'm not going to waste my time on it, as I have no vested interest so I don't really care if you are under the impression all claims are denied.

But exactly what department do you work in, and where? Do you have access to 100% of the company's records about claims? Do you manage the claims department? Are you a field inspector, cost accountant, cafeteria worker or janitor?

Too bad I just sold the TIVO that had a small part cracked during shipping - it was actually the one UPS called ME about, and the dent on the box was actually rather minor IMO....but they DID initiate the claim anyway, paid me the full amount of the selling price (I sold it on eBay) so I could refund the buyer...and let me KEEP it, so I actually sold it TWICE because UPS paid a claim.

Yeah, that's just terrible service -

I love these threads. Horror story after horror story.

Until you get down to the details - which, if actually revealed, show that denied claims are denied because of a valid reason - like the receiving party trying to file a claim and being told the shipper has to file it (correct); items damaged internally due to lousy packing (you can protect the *outside* of an item perfectly but screw up by not supporting internal components - speakers, tubes, etc; and claims denied because of flat, simple, lousy packing.

As Howard pointed out - do it right and you'll have few, if any, problems. I'm still waiting to read one of these "they deny all claims" statements to be backed up by anything except heated molecules that would otherwise fill a vacuum....

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 4 May 2009 10:02 am

Gary, I feel your pain! Last month I shipped a Gibson Les Paul Studio in it's hardshell case, packed in a Gibson carton which I retrieved from the dumpster behind Guitar Center to Southern California from Virginia. It was a birthday present for my 16 year old grandson. When it arrived, the carton had a crease across the front of it.

When my daughter opened it, the headstock was broken all the way around at the end of the neck! We contacted UPS and they said they'd pick it up to inspect it and then we'd go from there. Well they picked it up to inspect it and denied the claim saying it was "owner packed" and not sufficiently packed and some other crap.

While they had it, I contacted Steve Soest a guitar repairman who I'd know when I lived in SoCal to fix it for me and he was going to do it...... Guess what?

About a week later the guitar showed up back here in Virginia! Instead of sending it back to my daughter's house so we could repair it, they shipped the damn thing right back here. I've got it repaired and am going to ship it back to SoCal but you can rest assured, it won't go by UPS. Does anyone out there know another shipper who'd be better, will the post office take cartons the size of an electric guitar?.......thanks,....JH in Va.

The Steel Guitar Forum

If YOU use "UPS" to ship with YOU need to read

If YOU use "UPS" to ship with YOU need to read

welcome to my world !

Ups Sucksssssssssssass

Mr Siff

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