BULLET vs SNUB NOSE

[Doug Beaumier]

I think we're finally getting things worked out... and cooled down! As always, to each his own!

[AJ Azure]

I As always, to each his own!

that's all i am advocating. the more open we are in our thinking the more we have the potential to create and innovate

[Doug Beaumier]

That sounds good to me!

[basilh]

A.J. Are you saying that there's NO such thing as experts ?

Anyone who holds themselves up as an expert and an authority especially the ultimate final authority on any topic shows that they are narrow minded.

Did you mean to say "Especially" or is that intended to be "Specifically" ?

[Mike Neer]

Talk, it's only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
It's only talk

Talk, it's only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, it's only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
It's only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, it's only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a D this time
Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, it's all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations
It's all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

Anyway....

Bullet bars may be slightly more difficult to control for some, as you're not always really holding the bar, but mostly manipulating it and guiding it. Stevens-type bars give folks something to hold on to and also work very well for hammer-ons with open strings. I started first with a Stevens bar, but once I got into playing more and determined what I wanted to play, it was more easily achieved using a bullet bar, which is all I use now.

[AJ Azure]

A.J. Are you saying that there's NO such thing as experts ?

Anyone who holds themselves up as an expert and an authority especially the ultimate final authority on any topic shows that they are narrow minded.

Did you mean to say "Especially" or is that intended to be "Specifically" ?

I know this may sound radical but, yes I believe that there is no such thing as an expert. You can have someone who knows more even a lot more about a topic than another person but, to believe one's self to be or to be held up as an all knowing absolute authority on any topic is short sighted and egotistical. it's just not possible to know it all. We're human and thus fallible. even computers have gaps in their knowledge.
There's a great Eastern philosophy concept that applies well here. The first step to knowledge and understanding or enlightenment is admitting that you know (or I know) nothing. That doesn't mean you know literally nothing (even babies know something albeit rudimentary) but, more so that your knowledge base is one that is always growing, always fallible, always able to be contradicted or expanded upon. That's why even the most knowledgeable, wisest of teachers can be taught by their student.

I may have meant specifically or especially, or both

[AJ Azure]

Talk, it's only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
It's only talk

Talk, it's only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, it's only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
It's only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, it's only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a D this time
Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, it's all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations
It's all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

nice, who wrote that? that's probably THE best description for the internet and forums I've ever read!

[Doug Beaumier]

Bullet bars may be slightly more difficult to control for some, as you're not always really holding the bar, but mostly manipulating it and guiding it. Stevens-type bars give folks something to hold on to and also work very well for hammer-ons with open strings. I started first with a Stevens bar, but once I got into playing more and determined what I wanted to play, it was more easily achieved using a bullet bar, which is all I use now.

That's a very good description, Mike. As Jerry Byrd stated... dare I say ... you don't really "hold" the bar, you guide it along. Again, that's Jerry's style. Like you said, some players prefer the Stevens bar for their style of playing.

[AJ Azure]

Bullet bars may be slightly more difficult to control for some, as you're not always really holding the bar, but mostly manipulating it and guiding it. Stevens-type bars give folks something to hold on to and also work very well for hammer-ons with open strings. I started first with a Stevens bar, but once I got into playing more and determined what I wanted to play, it was more easily achieved using a bullet bar, which is all I use now.

That's a very good description, Mike. As Jerry Byrd stated... dare I say ... you don't really "hold" the bar, you guide it along. Again, that's Jerry's style. Like you said, some players prefer the Stevens bar for their style of playing.

ack you spoke the name ack lol ya know here i can throw a huge wrench in all this.. Rick Aiello for example, likes flatties! Those are another animal too.

I just thought about this;
Just imagine if Joseph Kekuku was told you shouldn't do that, it's not how you play guitar" we wouldn't even be having this conversation!

[Doug Beaumier]

I know this may sound radical but, yes I believe that there is no such thing as an expert. You can have someone who knows more even a lot more about a topic than another person but, to believe one's self to be or to be held up as an all knowing absolute authority on any topic is short sighted and egotistical.

Can't one be an Expert without being "an all knowing absolute authority"? Isn't there a middle ground somewhere? And shouldn't the advice of experts be valued? For example, Buddy Emmons is an expert steel guitarist who has done it all. But he is not an all-knowing absolute authority. I think his opinions and advice are valuable.

[Mike Neer]

Rick Aiello for example, likes flatties! Those are another animal too.

Rick liked flatties really because he could achieve the vibrato he wanted more easily, but ultimately his go-to bars are bullet bars because of the slanting.

You can't dismiss the wisdom of a Jerry Byrd or any other great player held in such high esteem. Their words are always worth considering, whether they are what you're looking for or not. Yes, you can carve your own path and innovate, but these players have done that and should be valued for whatever wisdom they were and are willing to share with us. What I would give to have 10 minutes to sit down with Jerry Byrd or Speedy West or Ralph Mooney or Joaquin, etc!

[Doug Beaumier]

What I would give to have 10 minutes to sit down with Jerry Byrd or Speedy West or Ralph Mooney or Joaquin, etc!

I took two days of lessons with Buddy Emmons in 1981 in Nashville. It was time well spent, with lots of expert advice!

[AJ Azure]

I know this may sound radical but, yes I believe that there is no such thing as an expert. You can have someone who knows more even a lot more about a topic than another person but, to believe one's self to be or to be held up as an all knowing absolute authority on any topic is short sighted and egotistical.

Can't one be an Expert without being "an all knowing absolute authority"? Isn't there a middle ground somewhere? And shouldn't the advice of experts be valued? For example, Buddy Emmons is an expert steel guitarist who has done it all. But he is not an all-knowing absolute authority. I think his opinions and advice are valuable.

maybe it's the word but, I think expert is too big of a statement. Often it's used as a way to dismiss anybody else's way of doing things. "Done it all is very figurative and not literal. He's done A LOT but, AL..? Has he doen flamenco lap steel with tube distortion as a duet with a tabla player?

Now i never dismissed JB's or other's opinion I just see this cult of absolutes on this and many forums and that's where I take issue with it. blind worship and respect are two different things. It's also whether it's delivered as advice or or if it's used to demean someone else's concept. One's creative and musical entity s better served when it si like a woven tapestry and that's the only way to really have variety in one's experience. What about Jerry Byrd in comparison to Debashish..there's bound to be a conflict in technique. That's perfectly fine but, when one is held up as a way to demean or lessen the value or validity of the other is when it's wrong.

[AJ Azure]

Rick Aiello for example, likes flatties! Those are another animal too.

Rick liked flatties really because he could achieve the vibrato he wanted more easily, but ultimately his go-to bars are bullet bars because of the slanting.

You can't dismiss the wisdom of a Jerry Byrd or any other great player held in such high esteem. Their words are always worth considering, whether they are what you're looking for or not. Yes, you can carve your own path and innovate, but these players have done that and should be valued for whatever wisdom they were and are willing to share with us. What I would give to have 10 minutes to sit down with Jerry Byrd or Speedy West or Ralph Mooney or Joaquin, etc!

Now I didn't dismiss them but, i do take issue with the cult level esteem some people hold normal human beings up to. Wisdom is also a matter of perception. Someone could come around 10 years from now and they could set up a new level that invalidates the old thought process and of course the old guard would say they're doing it all wrong. This is all subjective perception. Realizing that means that we allow ourselves to learn from all sources.

[Mike Neer]

Now I didn't dismiss them but, i do take issue with the cult level esteem some people hold normal human beings up to.

But really, what does that have to do with music and, frankly, why should the level of respect they get have that effect on you? You can take issue with it all you like, but in the end aren't you just doing the very thing you're always railing against: being negative?

It's one thing to sit around and talk about innovation; doing it is another matter.

Anyway, severe topic drift. This is getting to be ri-goddamn-diculous.

[Chris Drew]

OK, lets see about ri-goddamn-diculous...

What we have here is BAR-WARS!!!

A Long Time Ago,
In A Galaxy Far Far Away...

The rebel Stevens Alliance are under attack from the Imperial Bullet Forces.

Who can say who will eventually emerge victoriuos from this eternal struggle?
The ones who's choice of bar is styled and named after a tool crafted for the purposes of ending life, or those who favour a bar which is named after a Muslim Pacifist or the Law which states that the magnitude of a subjective sensation increases proportional to a power of the stimulus intensity...???

Stay tuned for the next even more ridiculous installment...

[AJ Azure]

Now I didn't dismiss them but, i do take issue with the cult level esteem some people hold normal human beings up to.

But really, what does that have to do with music and, frankly, why should the level of respect they get have that effect on you? You can take issue with it all you like, but in the end aren't you just doing the very thing you're always railing against: being negative?

It's one thing to sit around and talk about innovation; doing it is another matter.

Anyway, severe topic drift. This is getting to be ri-goddamn-diculous.

I believe I answered that Mike by saying that I have an issue with it when people use it to demean someone else's experience. There's the irony being forced to be negative to defend against negativity. I definitively see it. As for being ridiculous..that's all a matter of perception and opinion.

I do my part in effort evey day towards innovation but, that's an elusive objective and one that is of course subjective.

Anyway, since i's apparent people here find my opinions and the expression of them too radical and upseting to their status quod, I shall, not atrmept to express them any longer in the hopes of possibly offering some contribution to people's musical and life experience. It seems that people just prefer to perpetuate the same behavior rather than try something different and honestly I just don't have the need or patience for the negativity that these threads always take whether I get invovled or not..

[Ulric Utsi-Åhlin]

I might have considered watching BAR WARS,had Stanley
Kubrick been the producer.McUtsi

[Chris Drew]

I might have considered watching BAR WARS,had Stanley
Kubrick been the producer.McUtsi

I think it was Paul Verhoeven.

[Ulric Utsi-Åhlin]

Hey Chris,think we´re drifting off-topic..?..McUtsi

[Twayn Williams]

Talk, it's only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
It's only talk

Talk, it's only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, it's only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
It's only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, it's only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a D this time
Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, it's all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations
It's all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

nice, who wrote that? that's probably THE best description for the internet and forums I've ever read!

Adrian Belew back in the early 80's. It's one of my all time favorite songs.

Elephant Talk live on British TV

[seldomfed]

Dang you guys! You say To-may-to, I say bullet bar

Actually, I saw a Dobro instruction video the other day by Pete Huttlinger, and (of course) he said you need a Stevens bar cause you can't pick up a bullet etc. yada yada. He coached people to rest your left pinky on the strings all the time, and his picks sure were not bent like I do them. Pretty much 180deg. out from how I play Hawaiian style lap steel. But when he was showing slants, he did a good job, he still had to bend his wrist a might - but it works for him. And he ain't too shabby a player right? I can learn from this guy. I think he's an expert.

what's that old saying? "if the only tool you have is a hammer, then you see every problem as a nail".

Re: experts? This is just to juicy...

it's just not possible to know it all.

True you may never know it ALL (until you do), you only need to know more than the other person. Anybody a 'consultant' out there? Probably more these days than last year The first rule is "always be one chapter ahead of your client", and then " just say yes" and work your ass off.

Actually in the book 'Outliers' by Gladwell, he defines an 'expert' as someone with 10,000 hours under their belt. There are folks like that - and he lists many in his book. I'd bet Buddy Emmons has 10,000 hours. I gotta say - there are indeed experts everywhere, and I'm glad we have them, and I hope to be able to learn from them.

chris

[Doug Beaumier]

I'd bet Buddy Emmons has 10,000 hours

Try 100,000 hours!

Any serious full time pro musician plays at least 30 or 40 hours a week... probably More considering practice time and gigs.

Buddy has a 50+ year career in steel guitar. He started playing steel at age 11, professionally at age 17, moved to Nashville and played on the Opry at 18...

50 years at 35 hours a week would be 91,000 hours. I'll bet Buddy played a lot more than 35 hours a week in his younger days. He probably had days woodshedding 24 hours solid! Remember "Four Wheel Drive"? Buddy recorded that when he was only 20 years old, and it's still the hottest C6 tune I ever heard.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

A wise man once said: "The more I learn the more I realize I don't know..."

[seldomfed]

Ya 100,000 at least! He should have been highlighted in Gladwells' book! Jerry Byrd, Herbie Wallace, and many other pro players prob. have logged similar flight time.

Young kids can devote much more time than adults to this sort of thing - no work, no mortgage, no family, homework perhaps, but they can devote hours and hours a week towards their passion before the details of life start to intrude. Starting young is a huge advantage!

Wish I could get in 30 hours a week on the steel! But I enjoy the journey, and learning what I can.

c