BULLET vs SNUB NOSE

[John Drury]

it defeats the purpose of a steel guitar bar by making split slants impossible or very difficult at best

I've read this claim many times and it makes no sense to me - perhaps a square nosed Stevens makes split slants hard/impossible, but in my experience split slants with the 'curved' nose of the Shubb SP2 are no more difficult to execute properly than with a round nose. With my lap steels, which has a 25" scale length and relatively wide string spacing, split slants are actually easier with an SP2 than with a smaller round nose bar, possibly because of the SP2s flatter radius(?).

The only real disadvantage, IMO, is the difficulty of reverse slants, but there's been videos posted here of a dobro player executing ligthning fast reverse slants - even while simultaneously pulling strings behind the bar - so nothing's "impossible" (wish I remembered the name of that player, he's a member here...), some stuff just feels more natural with different types of bars.

Steinar,

Cindy Cashdollar, Jerry Douglas, and Phil Leadbetter don't seem to have a problem with slants in any form, Of course the laws of physics don't seem to apply to those people! LOL!

[Michael Papenburg]

I personally prefer the Schubb SP-2. I own a number of bullet bars and frankly don't like them. For now, it works well for my style of playing but that may change over time.YMMV.

[Rick Abbott]

I like the feel of a tapered bar. I have this old "E.R. Watson" Kona Bar from Escondido Ca. It's lead filled bakelite. 3 1/2 inches long tapers from 3/4 to 1". I had a replica made from stainless steel. It works for 12 string too.

[Doug Beaumier]

it defeats the purpose of a steel guitar bar by making split slants impossible or very difficult at best

I've read this claim many times and it makes no sense to me - perhaps a square nosed Stevens makes split slants hard/impossible, but in my experience split slants with the 'curved' nose of the Shubb SP2 are no more difficult to execute properly than with a round nose.

I was referring to the STEVENS bar, not the Shubb. I said... and I still say, Split Slants are nearly impossible with a flat end Stevens bar.

In other words.... how'ya gonna do this with a flat nose bar?
[tab]
Split Slant
---------
-----8---
-----8---
---------
-----7---
---------
[/tab]

Why do people keep talking about Reso, Dobro, and Jerry Douglas? Those are irrelevant to this post. This post... the original question... is about BULLET OR SNUB NOSE bar for LAP STEEL, Not acoustic reso. There's a difference. Acoustic Resonator guitar is a different animal than electric lap steel and the requirements are different.

[Lynn Oliver]

Why do people keep talking about Reso, Dobro, and Jerry Douglas? Those are irrelevant to this post. This post... the original question... is about BULLET OR SNUB NOSE bar for LAP STEEL, Not acoustic reso. There's a difference. Acoustic Resonator guitar is a different animal than electric lap steel and the requirements are different.

I won't rehash the earlier comments about technique vs. instrument, but I've always considered the dobro to be a member of the lap steel family. I probably got that crazy idea from Andy Volk's excellent book Lap Steel Guitar.

[Doug Beaumier]

I've always considered the dobro to be a member of the lap steel family.

Not me. I consider acoustic and electric to be in different families. Different in tone, sustain, volume. Slightly different techniques in playing and in the tools used to play each.

Vintage Guitar Magazine lists electric lap steels in the "Lap Steel" section. Dobros are listed with the acoustic guitars.

George Gruhn does the same thing in his Guide to Vintage Guitars: National lap steels are listed under the heading "Steels", and National dobros and resos are listed under "National Acoustics"

Acoustics and electrics are played differently. The tools and the techniques are not exactly the same on each type of instrument. What works well on acoustic may not work well on electric. For more detail see above... I can't type it out a fourth time.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

So when Jerry Douglas is playing one of his Lap King lap steels or David Lindley is playing his National Dynamic they're playing a.........?

[Fred Kinbom]

To each their own!

Well said!

[Chris Drew]

In other words.... how'ya gonna do this with a flat nose bar?
[tab]
Split Slant
---------
-----8---
-----8---
---------
-----7---
---------
[/tab]

Er... behind-the-bar string-pull.

I'll second Fred's seconding of Twayn's comment.


Just out of interest, where are hollownecks listed in the Vintage Guitar Magazine? Under acoustic or lap-steel?
I'm hoping that this is one type of guitar which one is allowed to play with either style of bar, without the bar-police waving their angry finger at you!

[John Bushouse]

So when Jerry Douglas is playing one of his Lap King lap steels or David Lindley is playing his National Dynamic they're playing a.........?

Guitar!

[AJ Azure]

So when Jerry Douglas is playing one of his Lap King lap steels or David Lindley is playing his National Dynamic they're playing a.........?

Guitar!

yeah lap steel guitar. the only reason you see dobro listed with acoustics is because they come in round and square. it's just for simplicity of categorization. everything else in this that thread anti-square bar s all part of the jerry byrd is god cult and that's the only way to do it mentality. fanaticism in any kind is pretty much the death of original thought and creativity. jerry byrd was just another musician who had an opinion on how to do something.

[Stephen Abruzzo]

Well, my question sure did stir up a hornet's nest, didn't it?
Anyway, I have just ordered a Charlie O Signature lead crystal/bullet nose tone bar from Diamond Bottlenecks. That should be great for ELECTRIC lap steel blues.
I also have an "M" style Tribo-tone bar too.
Many thanks to all who responded.

[Doug Beaumier]

jerry byrd was just another musician who had an opinion on how to do something.

Yeah, Jerry Byrd... no credibility at all. What does he know about lap steel guitar? Besides, you know what they say about opinions. John Ely, Speedy West, Buddy Emmons... just more musicians with opinions.

[Doug Beaumier]

...I have just ordered a Charlie O Signature lead crystal/bullet nose tone bar from Diamond Bottlenecks. That should be great for ELECTRIC lap steel blues.

Good move, Stephan! Congratulations, and enjoy your new BULLET NOSE bar for your ELECTRIC LAP STEEL GUITAR!

I guess we can close this post now that everything's settled.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

BULLET NOSE bar for your ELECTRIC LAP STEEL GUITAR!

Is it okay if I use my favorite bar, a Tribotone bullet, on my acoustic "non lap steel" steel, the Weissenborn?

[Doug Beaumier]

Is it okay if I use my favorite bar, a Tribotone bullet, on my acoustic "non lap steel" steel, the Weissenborn?

Steinar, you're going to sound good no matter what you use! Right now this thread has me so confused, I think I need to go play my steel guitar for a while.

[AJ Azure]

jerry byrd was just another musician who had an opinion on how to do something.

Yeah, Jerry Byrd... no credibility at all. What does he know about lap steel guitar? Besides, you know what they say about opinions. John Ely, Speedy West, Buddy Emmons... just more musicians with opinions.

Doug come on you can't be this naive and a stuck in the box thinker. First of all the only credibility those people have is to their own experience. That experience may be applicable to other people's or it may not but, it is by no means the only way to do something. Anyone who holds themselves up as an expert and an authority especially the ultimate final authority on any topic shows that they are narrow minded.

Maybe it's because, I've played most styles of music and techniques and have studied many different topics that makes me realize that there is no absolute way to do something. i know there are always multiple totally feasible ways to achieve a goal especially in a creative field. Opening your mind is a much happier state to live life in. When it comes to creativity it allows you to create new unique things. if you anchor yourself in absolutes you're not going to do something new or fresh and that's where ruts happen. You do what you want for yourself but, if you're going to offer someone advice especially someone new to this, do them the favor of not being so militant and absolute in your opinions.

[Doug Beaumier]

Doug come on you can't be this naive and a stuck in the box thinker.

Yes A.J., I guess 40 years of playing steel and over 4500 gigs has me stuck in a box and naive. I apologize for being so "militant". I'll try to improve and expand my horizons. Thank you for your sage advice. By the way... could you post some audio clips of your playing? I'm interested hear your steel guitar sound.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

I have to ask, Doug,- would you tell David Lindley, Ben Harper, Darick Campbell, or Jerry Douglas - at one of their 'electric' gigs - that they're using the "wrong" bar?

[AJ Azure]

Doug come on you can't be this naive and a stuck in the box thinker.

Yes A.J., I guess 40 years of playing steel and over 4500 gigs has me stuck in a box and naive. I apologize for being so "militant". I'll try to improve and expand my horizons. Thank you for your sage advice. By the way... could you post some audio clips of your playing? I'd be interested hear your steel guitar sound.

4000 years and 5 million gigs don't makeany difference to one's of thinkg. that aspect nor my playing have no weight on my core point. in fact your statement proves the point that you're closed off to anything but, your dogma. As for my playing a.) you wouldn't like it because, it doesn't meet your standard way of thinking and b.) i don't do the best i could because, i have physical limitations but, that has nothing to do with my musical knowledge, comprehension and ability. so since it's irrelevant to the main point which you seem to be missing, I'm not going to play the who's is bigger game. Suffice it to say I have not only played steel, i have also arranged and performed with full orchestra, composed for film, played multiple styles and instruments, been involved in mutiple arts fields and business areas, experienced varied cultures among other endeavors in my professional and personal life. That means I don't follow one dogma and realize that there are many ways to crack a coconut. I guess the concept of a renaissance thinker is foreign to many.

[Doug Beaumier]

Steinar, I don't know what kind of bars they use for playing electric lap steel... but they may not Need a round nose bar for the Style they play. Go back and read what I posted earlier in this thread. The bar a player uses depends on the style he wants to play. Many players don't care about the JB style, splint slats, rolling vibrato... fine, then use whatever bar you want.

[Doug Beaumier]

AJ, read my post above.

Still waiting to hear that clip of your playing...

[AJ Azure]

Steinar, I don't know what kind of bars they use for playing electric lap steel... but they may not Need a round nose bar for the Style they play. Go back and read what I posted earlier in this thread. The bar a player uses depends on the style he wants to play. Many players don't care about the JB style, splint slats, rolling vibrato... fine, then use whatever bar you want.

that's the most constructive thing you've said. thanks for being more open minded

[AJ Azure]

AJ, read my post above.

Still waiting to hear that clip of your playing...

read my post above re my playing and not engaging in that game

[Steinar Gregertsen]

The bar a player uses depends on the style he wants to play.

Yup, exactly! Sorry if you've mentioned that before and I've missed it...
So that's why I respond like I do when people claim that you have to use one type of bar for electric, another for dobro (Pete Grant uses a huge pedal steel bar when playing dobro) and so on... It's a matter of what best serves the needs of your chosen style of playing, not the instrument itself.

Personally, I had no need for a bullet bar as long as I played mostly instrumentals using single note lines and very little harmonized lines. But when I started playing weissenborn in an acoustic band I found that I needed to do a lot of 3-note reverse slants to get the harmonies I wanted in that context, and that's when I got the Tribotone and 'converted' to bullet bars. Forward slants, split slants and 'shimmering chords' ("rolling vibrato"?) was never a problem with the SP2, but those reverse slants killed me, so I decided it was time to 'bite the bullet' (harr.. harr... ).