BULLET vs SNUB NOSE

Tom Wolverton · Post by **Tom Wolverton** » 16 Apr 2009 6:18 am

Wow, the lead crystal bars look wild. Reminds me of something I saw in the window of a store in San Francisco. : )

Stephen Abruzzo · Post by **Stephen Abruzzo** » 16 Apr 2009 6:23 am

Many thanks to all who responded. Lots of info for me to sift through.

I have a Tribo-tone "M" bar (3/4" x 3") and a Shubb GS Steel to experiment with and I plan on ordering a lead crystal bar from Diamond Bottlenecks and possibly a Burden stell bar in the near future.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 16 Apr 2009 10:22 am

I once showed Jerry Byrd my new custom-made 3/4” Polished~Stainless Tone-Bar. I handed it to him and immediately he said it was a nice bar, but; just a little too long! It was only 3/4”x2 7/8” long, but; he could tell that extra 1/8” right away. His Dunlop-Bar was only 2 3/4” and he used it on everything! When I use my Burden Bullet~Bar, on my 10-str. guitar, it is only 3 1/8” long! Works great!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 16 Apr 2009 12:10 pm

I'm confused by Dunlop's web site...

For many years I've been using Dunlop's "Jerry Byrd" bar, made to Jerry's specs. It's Dunlop #918, as shown below, 3/4" x 2 15/16" long. 5.5 oz.

But on the Dunlop web site... model #918 is listed as 3 1/16" long...? So the site info is wrong... right? Or maybe there has been a change in the bar size? ...I'm confused.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 16 Apr 2009 5:06 pm

It appears that all the bars were supposedly designed by Jerry Byrd, but; his personal choice was the short ¾”x2ŽŽŽŽŽŽŽŽŽ¾” size! (Red Insert) Model 919

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 16 Apr 2009 6:14 pm

...(Jerry's) personal choice was the short ¾”x2ŽŽŽŽŽŽŽŽŽ¾” size! (Red Insert) Model 919

...but Model 919 does not say "Jerry Byrd Model" on the tube (container). Only Model 918 is labeled "Jerry Byrd Model".

I tried #919... and it's so tiny, I thought it was a child's size! And I have fairly small hands. Anyway, my favorite is #918, 2 15/16" long (in spite of what is posted on the Dunlop web site. That info is incorrect).

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 16 Apr 2009 6:23 pm

I have had a Mod. 919 for years, but; I never used it! I don't play 6-str. steel, or I might try it for that. For 8-str. I prefer the John Pearse Hawaiian Bar (3/4”x2 7/8”) For 10-str. I use from 3 1/8” to 3 5/16” Long, either 3/4” or 7/8” dia. I like to be able to cover all the strings at least up to fret #15 or so!

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 16 Apr 2009 6:33 pm

If I were you, just out of curiosity, I'd take the bar to your local Post Office and ask them to weigh it. They will gladly do that at no charge. I wonder how close a 2 15/16” bar would come to 5.5 oz., compared to my 2 3/4” bar at 4.5 oz. [If you weigh yours, I'll weigh mine!] ha~ha!

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 17 Apr 2009 7:42 am

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin wrote:Rick´s drawer o´ bars is one of the most impressive
sights in...a long time...I may have asked this before,but where can I buy these psychedelically
coloured,alternative material/shape,glass,plastic,
lead-filled etc bars..?..remember,they will have to
slide all the way to the old world.McUtsi

Boyett Lead Filled Glass Bars
Burden Bullet Bars
Chuck Brattain Powder Coated Bars - chuckguitar@msn.com
Tribotone Bars

Eric Gearhart · Post by **Eric Gearhart** » 17 Apr 2009 9:45 am

The Brozophonic bar, whose dimensions per Elderly Instruments are exactly the same as on the Dunlop 918 plastic tube (3/4 x 2 15/16 ), is slightly longer than the JB.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Apr 2009 7:06 pm

For me the Bullet bar is the one.
As for bar collections: these are Richard Shatz's few.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 18 Apr 2009 7:55 pm

Andy Volk wrote:Anyone telling you there are absolutes when it comes to the steel guitar is just plain wrong. The nature of the instrument invites tinkering ... with string gauges, tunings, bars, pickups, and every other aspect of playing the instrument. Everyone has their own prefererences and only the musical result is important.

Mike Auldridge and Aubrey Ghent have no difficulties playing amazing music with a rail-type bar. Cindy Cashdollar uses bullets for electric and rails for acoustic. Whatever works!

Personally, I feel bullet bars have many advantages over rail-type bars except for crisp, Jerry Douglas-style flurries of notes via hammers & pulls. I like to use the bullet nose vertically to get chords using open strings. I bought a Gary Swallows but felt hemmed-in by the finger rail so I know what Byrd meant. Bottom line" there's no getting around the fact that buying multiple bars is the best way to learn your own preferences.

I have been told that Auldridge even does split slants with a stevens type bar. Anything CAN be done with any bar. It really is true that you need to experiment to find out what works best for you.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Apr 2009 10:18 am

As Basil and Rick have pointed out, most steel players have accumulated a big collection of tone bars. You have to decide for yourself. I think the maxim is "suck it and see".

I use a Tribo-tone bar most of the time, even on resonator. On resonator I use a Stevens bar only when I'm playing a lot of open notes and single strings.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 19 Apr 2009 10:19 pm

most steel players have accumulated a big collection of tone bars.

Not me. I've never owned more than four bars at one time. Right now I have two bars for lap steel and two bars for pedal steel. That's all I need, and I don't like having a lot of stuff around that I don't use

John Drury · Post by **John Drury** » 20 Apr 2009 4:25 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:
when would you use a snub nose bar and when would you use a bullet bar for lap steel playing?
Bullet nose only for me. I've never used a snub nose bar for steel or dobro in 40 years of playing. I've tried, but a flat nose bar makes no sense to me. The round tip is essential for "split slants" on lap steel IMO... much easier and smoother for all slants, vibrato, hammer-ons and other steel guitar techniques. I know that some forum members may not agree, but that's my take on it.

Jerry Byrd, the greatest steel guitarist who ever lived, hated flat nosed bars and bars with a slot for the finger... and Jerry made no bones about it!

Jerry Byrd:

The Stevens bar is an absolute piece of junk.... Players who use them lay their index finger on the trough on top of the bar and all that does is immediately put your hand in a position that if you want to make a quick slant you have got to turn your whole hand and that finger and by then it’s too late and you can’t do it fast enough and you can’t do it accurately.

The Chubb-Pearse bar is much the same. They are trying to make a Stevens bar into a bullet nose but the trough and finger laying in it is still the problem.... it immobilizes the whole operation going into slants....

You don’t hold the bar anyway... the bar (should lay) on the strings and you caress your hand around it. You just cover it up and you DON”T hold it as such – you just move it around and guide it with your fingers. The only time you would hold it is when you pick it up off of the strings... Stevens Bar NO!

Doug,

No disrespect meant to you or the great Jerry Byrd but a Stevens bar is not junk, its just a bar theat you nor Jerry had much use for.

Some of the prettiest non pedal I've heard was done by my freind Don Helms on the "Red Guitar", Don used a Stevens bar as long as I knew him.

I don't use them for lap steel personally, but I am finding out that they are a must on the resos. I have had an awful time getting used to one, an S-P 1 seems to be the ticket for me as of now, after going through a raft of stevens type steels.

I started into Dobro last fall studying under Cindy Cashdollar. She has some excellent course material at "HomeSpun".

Cindy is my all time favorite Dobro player, steel player too for that matter, she uses a Stevens type steel exclusively for reso.

And of course, anyone that would even think of taking Jerry Douglas on with less than a Stevens type Steel is out of touch with reality, it cannot be done.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 20 Apr 2009 7:06 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:...I don't like having a lot of stuff around that I don't use

Doug, has my wife been talking to you ?

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 20 Apr 2009 8:11 pm

Doug,

No disrespect meant to you or the great Jerry Byrd but a Stevens bar is not junk

No problem, John.

Those were Jerry Byrd's words, not mine. I like posting that quote every once in a while because it stirs up so much "emotion".

Jerry was not shy about stating his opinion. In that same interview Jerry says he tells his students to drill a hole in their Stevens bars and use them as sinkers for fishing! As for my opinion, like I said earlier, the Stevens bar makes no sense to me at all. I agree with JB and Ray M. that it defeats the purpose of a steel guitar bar by making split slants impossible or very difficult at best, and inhibiting a smooth rolling sound, etc.

I agree that it's fine for RESO players... Jerry Douglas and others, but Reso guitar is irrelevant to this topic. This topic is about LAP STEEL bars. That was the original question. Reso playing and electric lap steel playing are different styles with different requirements in a bar. A flat nose slotted bar might be fine for acoustic playing, but it does not cut it for a smooth lap steel sound, in my opinion... if smooth is what you want.

This is my opinion, based on the style I like to play. I understand that other players may be be looking for something else, and a Stevens bar may suit their needs.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 21 Apr 2009 6:28 am

The Stevens bar has squared ends that dig into the palm of my hand. Does anyone make a longer one ?

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 21 Apr 2009 7:47 am

Alan Brookes wrote:The Stevens bar has squared ends that dig into the palm of my hand. Does anyone make a longer one ?

Shubb makes some with curved end(s)

Tom Wolverton · Post by **Tom Wolverton** » 21 Apr 2009 8:20 am

I agree with Doug. Also, the Scheerhorn and Lap Dawg bars don't have corners that dig into the hand. I like 'em for dobro.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 21 Apr 2009 8:53 am

Doug Beaumier wrote: I agree that it's fine for RESO players... Jerry Douglas and others, but Reso guitar is irrelevant to this topic. This topic is about LAP STEEL bars. That was the original question. Reso playing and electric lap steel playing are different styles with different requirements in a bar.

Sorry, this actually makes no sense. Seems like you're confusing instrument with style.

Yes, there are (obvious!) sonic differences between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar, but that really has nothing to do with the bar used to play them. That's like saying you can't use the same pick on an acoustic guitar vs an electric guitar.

Sacred steel players seem to prefer a sharp nosed bar instead of a round nose. Bobby Koefer used a flat bar on his electric. Sol Hoopii used a bullet bar on his Tricone.

I could never get along with a sharp nosed bar myself. I use the same bar on my lap steels, PSG and reso. To each their own!

Richard Terry · Post by **Richard Terry** » 21 Apr 2009 9:14 am

I got a bar from Dunlop labeled 920 Stainless Steel 7/8" Dia. x 2-7/8" Long, 7.5oz. The 2-7/8 is the length from the end to the start of the bullet curve. The bar from end to curved tip is 3.25".

The Dunlop list of bars that Doug posted says the 920 s 7/8 x 3-1/4. So some of the labeling differences may be due to a change in which length is being given.

I've just started using a Tribo-Tone I got yesterday and the bar is perfect for me. I had been very satisfied with the Dunlop 920 but the Tribo-Tone, not only because of its smooth action, but also because of the way its 7.5 oz. is distributed in a longer bar (7/8 dia. x 3.5625" length to the curved tip.) But it is also easier to hold when I lift it and I played straight for almost two hours without it fatiguing my hand. It just feels right for me and I think the right bar is very particular to the player and the instrument being played.

I am a newbie of sorts, not having played for thirty-five years until I took it up again a couple of years ago. The Forum is a treasure for me.

Richard

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 21 Apr 2009 9:58 am

Seems like you're confusing instrument with style.

I don't think so... Stevens for acoustic, round nose for electric. ...in my opinion

The Stevens bar is good for acoustic reso because the pull-offs sound more distinct and Louder with a flat end bar... But volume is not an issue with lap steel. Just turn up the amp. That's not to say that a Stevens bar won't work on lap steel, of course it will, but a lap steel player loses two things with a Stevens bar: split slants are next to impossible with a flat nose bar. And the smooth rolling motion of the bar is greatly diminished because of the groove in the bar. Those are two techniques I will not give up... for the style I play. Maybe other players don't care about those things, and that's fine. To each his own.

So it's a matter of style AND a matter of different instruments, acoustic and electric. In my opinion, a flat end bar enhances the sound and techniques on acoustic and it inhibits the sound and techniques on electric. Again, my opinion, based on the style I like to play.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 21 Apr 2009 11:13 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:it defeats the purpose of a steel guitar bar by making split slants impossible or very difficult at best

I've read this claim many times and it makes no sense to me - perhaps a square nosed Stevens makes split slants hard/impossible, but in my experience split slants with the 'curved' nose of the Shubb SP2 are no more difficult to execute properly than with a round nose. With my lap steels, which has a 25" scale length and relatively wide string spacing, split slants are actually easier with an SP2 than with a smaller round nose bar, possibly because of the SP2s flatter radius(?).

The only real disadvantage, IMO, is the difficulty of reverse slants, but there's been videos posted here of a dobro player executing ligthning fast reverse slants - even while simultaneously pulling strings behind the bar - so nothing's "impossible" (wish I remembered the name of that player, he's a member here...), some stuff just feels more natural with different types of bars.

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