BULLET vs SNUB NOSE
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Stephen Abruzzo
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BULLET vs SNUB NOSE
I've been looking thru the Search function......and so I'd like to ask: when would you use a snub nose bar and when would you use a bullet bar for lap steel playing? Briefly, what are the pros/cons of each for lap steel?
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Ray Montee
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Just asking?
WHEN would YOU.........choose to use a SNUB NOSE bar and please tell us why?....as opposed to a bullet nose.
IMHO, they defeat the entire purpose of what a steel bar is all about with the exception of those frequently used by open string Dobro players.
IMHO, they defeat the entire purpose of what a steel bar is all about with the exception of those frequently used by open string Dobro players.
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Stephen Abruzzo
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Rick Alexander
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Stephen, it's not a dumb question at all.
I don't believe Ray thinks it is either.
He was just offering his opinion. He's been playing for many years and he's one of the best - so his opinion should definitely be taken into consideration.
Everyone has their personal preferences when it comes to bars.
A good type of bar to use is a steel bullet bar with an indentation at the end for the thumb, such as a Burden hard chrome or stainless Bullet Bar.
Boyett lead filled glass bars are great, and so are the Tribotone bars made by Eric Ebner - and the powder coated bars made by Chuck Brattain.
Many players are using these fine bars.
With this type of bar you can accurately execute slants, hammerons, pulloffs, bar slams and all the other goodies that make steel playing fun.
Some people have difficulty holding on to a bullet bar and require a Stevens or Shubb or other type bar - or they just prefer them.
You have to try different kinds of bars and decide for yourself what best suits you.
I don't believe Ray thinks it is either.
He was just offering his opinion. He's been playing for many years and he's one of the best - so his opinion should definitely be taken into consideration.
Everyone has their personal preferences when it comes to bars.
A good type of bar to use is a steel bullet bar with an indentation at the end for the thumb, such as a Burden hard chrome or stainless Bullet Bar.
Boyett lead filled glass bars are great, and so are the Tribotone bars made by Eric Ebner - and the powder coated bars made by Chuck Brattain.
Many players are using these fine bars.
With this type of bar you can accurately execute slants, hammerons, pulloffs, bar slams and all the other goodies that make steel playing fun.
Some people have difficulty holding on to a bullet bar and require a Stevens or Shubb or other type bar - or they just prefer them.
You have to try different kinds of bars and decide for yourself what best suits you.
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Doug Beaumier
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Bullet nose only for me. I've never used a snub nose bar for steel or dobro in 40 years of playing. I've tried, but a flat nose bar makes no sense to me. The round tip is essential for "split slants" on lap steel IMO... much easier and smoother for all slants, vibrato, hammer-ons and other steel guitar techniques. I know that some forum members may not agree, but that's my take on it.when would you use a snub nose bar and when would you use a bullet bar for lap steel playing?
Jerry Byrd, the greatest steel guitarist who ever lived, hated flat nosed bars and bars with a slot for the finger... and Jerry made no bones about it!
Jerry Byrd:
The Stevens bar is an absolute piece of junk.... Players who use them lay their index finger on the trough on top of the bar and all that does is immediately put your hand in a position that if you want to make a quick slant you have got to turn your whole hand and that finger and by then it’s too late and you can’t do it fast enough and you can’t do it accurately.
The Chubb-Pearse bar is much the same. They are trying to make a Stevens bar into a bullet nose but the trough and finger laying in it is still the problem.... it immobilizes the whole operation going into slants....
You don’t hold the bar anyway... the bar (should lay) on the strings and you caress your hand around it. You just cover it up and you DON”T hold it as such – you just move it around and guide it with your fingers. The only time you would hold it is when you pick it up off of the strings... Stevens Bar NO!
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Lynn Oliver
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If you play dobro and do Sally Van Meter-style pulloffs you need a bar with an edge up front to "pick" the strings. Otherwise a bullet nose is fine.
I don't agree about the comment on slanting with a stevens-style bar; with proper technique you do not turn your whole hand: the end of the index finger is used to pivot the bar between the thumb and middle fingers. Accuracy and speed when slanting are not a problem.
FWIW, the best stevens-style bar is the Dunlop 925, which is brass with chrome plating and very nicely finished. The brand name Stevens is brass with nickel plating and can be a bit rough.
I really like the Tribo-Tone and the John Pearse bullet nose bars.
I don't agree about the comment on slanting with a stevens-style bar; with proper technique you do not turn your whole hand: the end of the index finger is used to pivot the bar between the thumb and middle fingers. Accuracy and speed when slanting are not a problem.
FWIW, the best stevens-style bar is the Dunlop 925, which is brass with chrome plating and very nicely finished. The brand name Stevens is brass with nickel plating and can be a bit rough.
I really like the Tribo-Tone and the John Pearse bullet nose bars.
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Keith Cordell
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No point going with one type of bar. I use a Lap Dawg, 2 different bullets, Elton flatties and a lead crystal doorhandle at various times when I play, for different sounds. I have heard of guys using pieces of broomhandle, knives, angle iron, and bottleneck slides. Any of these will give you a different sound. I agree, though, that bullet bars are best for traditional Hawaiian music, the whole technique revolves around it. Tough to do pull offs with one, though.
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Chris Drew
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Stephen, the question in your original post seems to have been ignored!
ie, "What are the pros & cons of each?"
I guess this is to be expected, as the "right or wrong"ness attitude will often rear it's ugly head when Our Beloved Forum sprouts debates such as this!
Some genres of music and/or playing styles will involve different techniques which will naturally tend to favour one bar or the other, however in reality it's personal preferance that determines bar choice.
To your question:
Any cons associated with either type of bar are able to be overcome by adaptation of technique.
( Please note that the following is all IMHO )
Vibrato: This is not affected by bar-type, though the diameter of a bullet-bar or radius of the playing surface of a grooved bar have an effect on the "rolling vibrato" technique.
Hammer-ons: How can bar-type affect this? Maybe in this case the bullet-bar is at a disadvantage, but only if you don't tailor your grip or choice of diameter to suit.
Pull-offs: Some use the edge of a shaped bar to "pluck" the string, but a bullet-bar is just as effective for pull-offs by employing a different technique.
Open Strings: A bullet-bar will slide more easily onto or off an open string whilst remaining in contact with the lower strings, as there's no "edge" to catch. A "Stevens"style bar requires a different technique to avoid involuntary pull-offs or snagging.
Single-strings: Either style is equally able to play cleanly on a single string without contacting adjacent strings. The same applies to double-stops.
"In & out" movement with a grooved bar requires muting of unwanted strings.
Slants: Many find that slants come easier with a bullet-bar. A grooved bar is only less suitable for slants if you rigidly apply the incorrect technique.
Slightly arching the index-finger to provide the fingertip as a fulcrum for bar rotation can be accomplished in a split-second without requiring any unnecessary rotation of the hand.
Some complex slants though are impossible without a rounded nose unless you employ a nifty string-pull whilst slanting.(:whoa:)
Lifting or not lifting the bar: Some say that lifting the bar is an absolute NO-NO... IMHO that it their HO which applies to specific genres of music, and should be taken as such. For some genres lifting the bar is essential.
Bar choice is largely down to personal preference and imVHo the factors involved are subjective, through adaptive techniques the cons of each can be overcome, as proved by the highly accomplished players out there who use the "wrong" bar.
ie: Dobro-players using a bullet for bluegrass & Stevens-bar-users playing traditional Hawaiian music with slants aplenty.
To each their own, I say!
It's unfortunate that there seems to be a tendancy for advocates of bullet-bars to come across as dogmatic!
For this reason alone I'd say that you must avoid bullet-bars entirely as they clearly induce some kind of delusional and/or phobic behaviour which manifests as the unpleasant symptoms of hatred and dogma.*
I've yet to find a quote of any grooved-bar user which goes anything like:
"The bullet bar is an absolute piece of junk", though one could just as easily come up with a similar diatribe bemoaning the shortcomings of bullet-bars when faced with the immovable conviction of personal opinion!
*Note to those without UKSOH:
I'm JOKING.
Seriously though, try both & use what you like.
ie, "What are the pros & cons of each?"
I guess this is to be expected, as the "right or wrong"ness attitude will often rear it's ugly head when Our Beloved Forum sprouts debates such as this!
Some genres of music and/or playing styles will involve different techniques which will naturally tend to favour one bar or the other, however in reality it's personal preferance that determines bar choice.
To your question:
Any cons associated with either type of bar are able to be overcome by adaptation of technique.
( Please note that the following is all IMHO )
Vibrato: This is not affected by bar-type, though the diameter of a bullet-bar or radius of the playing surface of a grooved bar have an effect on the "rolling vibrato" technique.
Hammer-ons: How can bar-type affect this? Maybe in this case the bullet-bar is at a disadvantage, but only if you don't tailor your grip or choice of diameter to suit.
Pull-offs: Some use the edge of a shaped bar to "pluck" the string, but a bullet-bar is just as effective for pull-offs by employing a different technique.
Open Strings: A bullet-bar will slide more easily onto or off an open string whilst remaining in contact with the lower strings, as there's no "edge" to catch. A "Stevens"style bar requires a different technique to avoid involuntary pull-offs or snagging.
Single-strings: Either style is equally able to play cleanly on a single string without contacting adjacent strings. The same applies to double-stops.
"In & out" movement with a grooved bar requires muting of unwanted strings.
Slants: Many find that slants come easier with a bullet-bar. A grooved bar is only less suitable for slants if you rigidly apply the incorrect technique.
Slightly arching the index-finger to provide the fingertip as a fulcrum for bar rotation can be accomplished in a split-second without requiring any unnecessary rotation of the hand.
Some complex slants though are impossible without a rounded nose unless you employ a nifty string-pull whilst slanting.(:whoa:)
Lifting or not lifting the bar: Some say that lifting the bar is an absolute NO-NO... IMHO that it their HO which applies to specific genres of music, and should be taken as such. For some genres lifting the bar is essential.
Bar choice is largely down to personal preference and imVHo the factors involved are subjective, through adaptive techniques the cons of each can be overcome, as proved by the highly accomplished players out there who use the "wrong" bar.
ie: Dobro-players using a bullet for bluegrass & Stevens-bar-users playing traditional Hawaiian music with slants aplenty.
To each their own, I say!
It's unfortunate that there seems to be a tendancy for advocates of bullet-bars to come across as dogmatic!
For this reason alone I'd say that you must avoid bullet-bars entirely as they clearly induce some kind of delusional and/or phobic behaviour which manifests as the unpleasant symptoms of hatred and dogma.*
I've yet to find a quote of any grooved-bar user which goes anything like:
"The bullet bar is an absolute piece of junk", though one could just as easily come up with a similar diatribe bemoaning the shortcomings of bullet-bars when faced with the immovable conviction of personal opinion!
*Note to those without UKSOH:
I'm JOKING. Seriously though, try both & use what you like.
Last edited by Chris Drew on 15 Apr 2009 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgan Scoggins
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Tone Bars
I use a BJS bullet nose bar because it is easier to slant, but most of all, it is the best wat to play single notes, especially when you have to move the bar "in and out".
THe Stevens bar will not work for single notes because it gets tripped up on the strings when you move the bar "in and out" on a single fret.
The Shubb SP 1 bar has a rounded tip which allows for single note playing, but the grip will not allow for much slanting, especially reverse slants.
I use both bars due to the fact that I have arthritus and sometimes the Shubb bar is all I can handle. I can really play those old country & Hank Williams songs. Practically no slants are used when I play like Don Helms. If I want to play a song like " I love You So Much" I have to use the BJS bullet nose bar to make all the slants for the augmented & diminished chords.
THe Stevens bar will not work for single notes because it gets tripped up on the strings when you move the bar "in and out" on a single fret.
The Shubb SP 1 bar has a rounded tip which allows for single note playing, but the grip will not allow for much slanting, especially reverse slants.
I use both bars due to the fact that I have arthritus and sometimes the Shubb bar is all I can handle. I can really play those old country & Hank Williams songs. Practically no slants are used when I play like Don Helms. If I want to play a song like " I love You So Much" I have to use the BJS bullet nose bar to make all the slants for the augmented & diminished chords.
"Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands"
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Tom Wolverton
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Not a stupid question, Stephen. You said Lap Steel playing - that can be a lot of styles. I think it comes down to what kind of music you want to play. Many consider David Lindley a great lap steel and Weissenborn player - I seem to recall that he likes the Tilton and Scheerhorn bars (angle nose). If you go over to one of the reso player forums, you'll find hard core "sharp-end" bar users who would "poo-poo" bullet bars. I've played them all - quite a bit and for me, the advantage of that sharp end bar (like Ray said) is mostly for Dobro players using the hard edge to snap pull offs. I do this a bit on the lap steel as well, so I use a Scheerhorn bar on the lap steel. But I also play 8-string and like that new Peter Grant bar with the rounded end. Find a bar that fits your hand and get comfortable with it and don't switch around - make the bar one with you. Sleep with it, hold it in your pocket all day. Take it out to the movies and to dinner....mold your hand to it. : )
It's a similar discussion that fiddlers have about holding the bow. Some folks hold their bows in strange ways, that (to a classical player) seem limiting - yet they rip. Ever see Byron Berline's bow grip?
It's a similar discussion that fiddlers have about holding the bow. Some folks hold their bows in strange ways, that (to a classical player) seem limiting - yet they rip. Ever see Byron Berline's bow grip?
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Rick Alexander
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Bill Hatcher
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I use the Shubb Pearse bar with the groove on top and sides and the hook end....the one that Jerry Byrd hates. I play the Leavitt tuning so what he said about slants has no bearing on what I do.
I also have several other bullet nose bars with cuts in the side and some with cuts in the side and top. Don't use them much, but who knows what the future may hold.
Get something you like and feels comfortable to you.
I also have several other bullet nose bars with cuts in the side and some with cuts in the side and top. Don't use them much, but who knows what the future may hold.
Get something you like and feels comfortable to you.
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Tom Wolverton
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Dave Mayes
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Twayn Williams
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Re: BULLET vs SNUB NOSE
My $0.02.Stephen Abruzzo wrote:I've been looking thru the Search function......and so I'd like to ask: when would you use a snub nose bar and when would you use a bullet bar for lap steel playing? Briefly, what are the pros/cons of each for lap steel?
For a beginner, the SP-2 is probably the easiest bar to start with. It's easy to hold because of the grooves and it has the bullet nose to keep from snagging when moving from string to string. When you need to lift the bar for nose-only playing it's much easier to keep a grip on. Slant technique with this kind of bar is different than with a bullet bar. The nose on a SP-2 is not quite as good as a bullet bar for split slants, but that's an advanced technique anyway. I've also found the curvature of an SP2 to be a bit wide and I get a certain amount of "sitaring" when doing 2-fret slants.
After you can get around with a SP2, it's time to get into bullet bars. An advantage of bullet bars is that there are so many different types to choose from. They come in a wide variety of weights, materials and sizes. You can usually find one that's just right for your general needs with a lot of alternates for different tones, etc. When you first start with a bullet bar you're likely to find yourself dropping it a lot, or having it slide out of control at inopportune moments
I find split slants and 2-fret slants much more in tune with a good bullet bar. I currently use a Diamond Necks Crystal Tone bar, which has a huge diameter for easy handling and weight and it has a really nice smooth tone.Primitive Utility Steel
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Tom Wolverton
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Doug Beaumier
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Tom Wolverton
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Anyone telling you there are absolutes when it comes to the steel guitar is just plain wrong. The nature of the instrument invites tinkering ... with string gauges, tunings, bars, pickups, and every other aspect of playing the instrument. Everyone has their own prefererences and only the musical result is important.
Mike Auldridge and Aubrey Ghent have no difficulties playing amazing music with a rail-type bar. Cindy Cashdollar uses bullets for electric and rails for acoustic. Whatever works!
Personally, I feel bullet bars have many advantages over rail-type bars except for crisp, Jerry Douglas-style flurries of notes via hammers & pulls. I like to use the bullet nose vertically to get chords using open strings. I bought a Gary Swallows but felt hemmed-in by the finger rail so I know what Byrd meant. Bottom line" there's no getting around the fact that buying multiple bars is the best way to learn your own preferences.
Mike Auldridge and Aubrey Ghent have no difficulties playing amazing music with a rail-type bar. Cindy Cashdollar uses bullets for electric and rails for acoustic. Whatever works!
Personally, I feel bullet bars have many advantages over rail-type bars except for crisp, Jerry Douglas-style flurries of notes via hammers & pulls. I like to use the bullet nose vertically to get chords using open strings. I bought a Gary Swallows but felt hemmed-in by the finger rail so I know what Byrd meant. Bottom line" there's no getting around the fact that buying multiple bars is the best way to learn your own preferences.
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Doug Beaumier
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Chris Scruggs
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Fred Kinbom
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Great lead crystal bars hand made in the UK:Ulric Utsi-Åhlin wrote:Rick´s drawer o´ bars is one of the most impressive
sights in...a long time...I may have asked this before,but where can I buy these psychedelically
coloured,alternative material/shape,glass,plastic,
lead-filled etc bars..?..remember,they will have to
slide all the way to the old world.McUtsi
www.diamondbottlenecks.com
Fred
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium
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Steinar Gregertsen
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Amen.Andy Volk wrote:Anyone telling you there are absolutes when it comes to the steel guitar is just plain wrong.
Check out the lead crystal bars fromDiamond Bottlenecks:I may have asked this before,but where can I buy these psychedelically
coloured,alternative material/shape,glass,plastic,
lead-filled etc bars..?
As to the original question (hope you're still around Stephen): For a beginner a 'snub nose' bar will be easier to hold, and it's also easier to use if you lift the bar and 'jump around' with it a lot. Forward slant are just as easy/hard with both types of bars, in my experience, while reverse slants are quite a bit trickier with a snub nose.
I used a Shubb SP2 bars my first 2-3 years playing lap steel, but finally converted to a regular bullet bar when I got a Tribotone bar. These days I find the bullet bar just as easy to use as my old SP2s and don't really feel I gain anything by using a snub nose bar since I don't do a lot of very fast and 'sharp' pull offs ala Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes, and the other dobro masters.
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