Intonation issue

Ed Owen · Post by **Ed Owen** » 5 Apr 2009 3:01 pm

The intonation on the lowest string is off on three of my 6 string lap steels: BR-4, Magnatone, and B6. The strings gauges are .058 to .015 for open D and E. The barred note at the 12th fret on the lowest string is sharp (almost half a fret) compared to the harmonic. To compensate at the 12th and other frets, you have to slant the bar back toward the nut about half a fret on the lowest string. The other strings are fine.

Wouldn’t lap steels benefit by having compensated adjustable intonation saddles? This doesn’t seem to be an issue for players, as most steels I see have a straight bar saddle.

Ed Owen · Post by **Ed Owen** » 5 Apr 2009 3:20 pm

I noticed that Ko’olau offers an intonation bridge on their lap steel models KLS-1 and KLS-2.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 6 Apr 2009 11:15 am

I had this problem with a Gibson Console steel. The
tall chromed knife edge nut has two locating pins
which go into the wood. Over the years the holes in the wood wallowed out, allowing the bridge to tilt
forward (toward the fretboard). This made the top of the nut be out of scale by almost 1/4". I filled the holes and redrilled them, also shimming the small space between the nut and the end of the
fretboard, correcting the problem. No matter what
brand, make sure the nut is not tilted inward (or outward, for that matter).

Ed Owen · Post by **Ed Owen** » 7 Apr 2009 12:20 pm

Hey Clyde, thanks for the tip. I’ll keep an eye out for that. It may be I’m going with too heavy a gauge on the low string.

Tell ‘Shorty’ (steel player and welder) from Kinston Ed said hello.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Apr 2009 4:53 pm

A search on the forum brought up 48 matches re intonation on a lap steel.
Some interesting reading..

A compensated bridge is for FRETTED instruments and compensates for the differing amounts of string deflection in pressing the varied gauge strings to the frets. No such problem occurs with a steel guitar. A staggered or adjustable bridge is to all intents and purposes, of no advantage.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=141937

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 7 Apr 2009 5:15 pm

I had similar problems. Because the lowest string on an open D tuning is so large (.065), and the push down pressure/tension it takes to make the string sing properly, you do get an out of toneation note unless you compensate. Some of the worlds best hollowneck builders like Paddy and Rance have compensated saddles and they seem to be accepted by professional working musicians.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Apr 2009 5:30 pm

The bottom string on an 8 string B11th tuning is usually a 0.072" tuned to a low B, I've NEVER heard a professional steel player say that it requires a compensated bridge for that single string.

Furthermore you (Gary) say "push down pressure/tension it takes to make the string sing properly"
Well how can anyone make a compensated bridge that compensates for pressures that can vary so much, depending on the player's touch "On the Day"..

No.. sorry it's a "Red Herring" possibly used and perpetrated by upmarket CUSTOM builders as a marketing ploy to the lesser initiated.

Research the forum a little more and see the consensus of the experts.

Steve Wilson · Post by **Steve Wilson** » 7 Apr 2009 5:31 pm

Ed-
You didn't mention what type of nut your guitar has, but if it has a wide Spanish guitar type nut (as opposed to a round nut) my guess is that the low string may not be contacting (or taking off) from the nut at the very edge of the nut slot nearest the fretboard. If the string is taking off further back on the nut (toward the peghead) that could cause the problem you describe. Especially since it is the only string having issues. This could also be caused by the the nut slot being smaller than the string you are using causing the string not to be nested in the slot properly. If you have a small nut file the size of the string in question try slightly ramping the nut slot downward toward the peghead to assure it is taking off from the very edge. On wound strings you can sometimes use a small (1 inch or so) piece of the same gauge string superglued onto a small (3 inch long) dowel and use the windings as a file. As Basil noted, a compensated bridge is of no need on a steel since there is no or very little string deflection to compensate for. If the problem is at the nut, a compensated bridge would not correct it anyway. You could likely adjust the harmonic at the 12th fret, but all the other frets would be off. Likewise it should not make a difference as what gauge string you use provided the speaking length of the string takes of at the end of the nut (or center of a round nut)and is in the proper place on the saddle to give you the correct scale length. Hope this helps.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Apr 2009 5:44 pm

Garry, maybe if you asked who you term "Some of the worlds best hollowneck builders like Paddy and Rance" as to explain the reasons why they have compensated "Saddles" you MAY get a speculative rather than an informed answer.
The mechanics of a freely vibrating string between to fixed points being stopped, by a touch as in an artificial harmonic, or by a steel/glass etc bar, doesn't equate to different points. UNLESS bad technique is a factor. QED

Not for one moment am I decrying their workmanship or capabilities as luthiers, but I DO question their motives for the ploy of a compensated bridge on an instrument that for the past hundred and twenty years hasn't needed one.
Regarding Steel guitars be they electric or acoustic, versus the fretted instruments :-

Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi. (St. Ambrose 387 A.D.)

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 7 Apr 2009 7:26 pm

I have a .080 on my 30 inch baritone. Rance says the Peterson strobe shows the compensated saddle works great.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 7 Apr 2009 7:36 pm

"Research the forum a little more and see the consensus of the experts."

I have emailed Rance and Paddy on this. Since they build for working professionals, let us see what luthiers like themselves who are reasonable for the pros gear have to say. It will indeed be interesting.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 7 Apr 2009 7:57 pm

Check the saddles out.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 Apr 2009 1:51 am

Better to ask them are the saddles self constructed OR an "Of the Shelf" item. Methinks the latter.

Was the electric one a "Special Order" as I see the tone and volume controls are far from the optimum position, their placement is negating the possibility of the "Violining and Bo Wah" effects..

Surely a "Pro" player wouldn't want the controls there, Unless it's a special order for someone who hasn't any use for those tools in his armoury ! Which in reflection would probably eliminate MOST "Pro" players from the equation.

Pick-up placement is also a little strange unless the player is going to use the instrument for blues and such like semi overdriven applications. I would also question the machine heads orientation, facing up would be a "Pro's" choice in most instances, facilitating quick fine tuning adjustments.

Paddy Burgin · Post by **Paddy Burgin** » 8 Apr 2009 2:21 am

Intonation is a hot issue on any stringed instrument.
The sloped bone shop made saddle is just something I do because my background is in steel string acoustics etc. I am merely transfering the "technology" but I don't intonate the individual strings as I used to. This is not a highlighted feature of our instruments and if people want a straight saddle I'm happy to do it.
In the past on the forum I have read of people altering the tuning slightly (for example lowering the second string by a couple of cents) to ensure a sweeter sound up the neck.
We are always keen to try new ideas on our guitars. At the moment our saddles are slanted because as a player it works for me. But it's not set in concrete.

Regarding the discussion about the electric slide. It was made for a blues player who does like the overdrive sound. He also designed the layout of the peghead and volume/tone controls for his playing technque.

We make no claims that our instruments are better than those produced by anyone else.

As far as we are concerned, preferences around music and instruments are entirely subjective. Everyone has their own take on it.

cheers
Paddy Burgin

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 Apr 2009 2:48 am

Thanks Paddy for your confirmation of my speculations.
As I stated above, my comments are not meant in any way to be derogative or indeed critical of the obvious high stand of lutherie of you and your peers.

The minutia of intonation adjustments made by bridge inserts etc. pale into insignificance when the left hand accuracy of even the most experienced players is probably not within +/- 10 cents of the frets. (and that's not even taking the variations of pressure into account) We all know what happens when the natural elevation of music gets us excited

As far as we are concerned, preferences around music and instruments are entirely subjective. Everyone has their own take on it.

Don't completely rule out the accepted "Norm" and the opinion of the "Aficionados"

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 8 Apr 2009 7:52 am

A few from master builder Bill Asher, who builds for Ben Harper. Seems there must be something to it.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 8 Apr 2009 8:07 am

"My Asher gets such a mad tone. Finally I could get solid-body volume and sustain, control feedback, and still have some hollow resonance that filters up through the pickups instead of through the open [sound] hole."

-Ben Harper

"I was blown away when I first heard an Asher lap steel….I knew I had to get one!"

-Cindy Cashdollar

"A beautifully crafted instrument that looks as good as it sounds and feels like home. The Asher Ultratone is my primary electric guitar on the road and in the studio."

-Eric Mcfadden

"My Asher steel (#034) is incredibly musical and inspiring to play. Coming from the Weissenborn, my touch, feel and technique translate so naturally. I bring it to every gig!"

-Chris Haugen (San Francisco, California)

and so on........all happy campers

Fred Kinbom · Post by **Fred Kinbom** » 8 Apr 2009 8:46 am

I am not sure about the exact scientific explanations, but I have often found I have had to compensate slighly with the bar on the 6th string on acoustic lap steels to avoid it sounding slightly sharp where it "should" sound in tune (i.e. with the bar straight in line with the other strings). I should add that I am using quite heavy 6th string gauges compared to higher pitch tunings on electric lap steels, and using tunings where the octave interval between the 4th and 6th strings is an important feauture (open D and G tunings) - also, I probably have a bit slacker string tension than one would have on an electric steel (my first acoustic lap steel was an old oahu 24" scale guitar that I tuned to C or lower in D-shape tuning with .014-.056 strings - very slack and a "3 dimensional feat" to play in tune).

I don't know if heavier strung acoustic steels in D and G tunings could be slightly "different animals" than electric steels in higher tunings? It is very obvious when the 4th and 6th strings are not in a perfect octave pitch. On my slacked-strung Oahu, if I am fretting these two strings, I definitely have to slant the bar towards the nut on the 6th string to get an in-tune octave.

This is just my experience. And I have one of Paddy's beautiful instruments (a baritone Weissenborn with a .072 6th string) which has a slightly compensated saddle, and it plays extremely nicely up the neck on the lower strings. I can hold the bar straight (and it sounds more defined and projects more than other guitars in this register - but that is due to Paddy's way of building rather than the saddle

).

Just my 2 cents.

Fred

Roger Palmer · Post by **Roger Palmer** » 8 Apr 2009 9:05 am

I have this problem on my BR-9 when it is tuned to open E. It's only a problem with the 6th string which is .054. I tried a .056 but it didn't make much difference. As a consequence I have tuned it to Dobro G tuning. I don't get the problem when I put C6th strings on it.
I think if I used a .058 or heavier it should fix the problem but I haven't tried this yet

Or maybe try a .050 or .052....I'll see what spare strings Ive got and mess about tonight

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 8 Apr 2009 9:38 am

basilh wrote: Surely a "Pro" player wouldn't want the controls there, Unless it's a special order for someone who hasn't any use for those tools in his armoury ! Which in reflection would probably eliminate MOST "Pro" players from the equation.

No offense Basil, but that's one of the silliest things I've read in a long time. I don't think it's up to you, me, or anybody else to judge other players professionality by the choices they make regarding their instruments.

As for the compensated saddle stuff,- I've played both and have never had anybody complain about my pitch. I guess I adjust to whatever I'm playing.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 8 Apr 2009 10:06 am

I have a similar problem on my 12-string E9/B6 universal pedal steels. If I tune the lowest couple of strings open at the nut, they are a little sharp when I play with the bar straight up the neck. I attribute that to the very thick cores of these heavy gauge strings (0.058 and 0.070) being a little more sensitive to bar pressure than the smaller gauge strings. To compensate, I tune the strings roughly with a meter open at the nut, then place the bar near the center of my playing area (8th fret) and tweak the tuning slightly by ear. If I check the open strings at the nut with the meter again, they are a little flat. A slanted bridge would almost certainly help with this.

Of course bar pressure bends the strings less that fretting with fingers against the fret board. So this is not as much a problem with steel guitar as with fretted guitars. But it still can be a slight problem, especially with very heavy gauge strings. This seems supported by the fact that the slant of the saddles in the above pictures is less than usually seen on fretted guitars.

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 8 Apr 2009 10:09 am

"...I've got two Weissenborn guitars made by Paddy Burgin in New Zealand, which are mind blowing! The quality is incredible."

-David Lindley, in Modern Guitar Magazine

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 Apr 2009 11:37 am

Steinar Gregertsen wrote:
No offense Basil, but that's one of the silliest things I've read in a long time. I don't think it's up to you, me, or anybody else to judge other players professionality by the choices they make regarding their instruments.

I wasn't..Maybe the inuendo's have fallen on stony ground.
I used the word "Probably" (Conjecture) and as it was an Electric Lap steel I was referring to, Violining and Boo Wah effects WOULD be in the arsenal of MOST players.

I was generalising and averaging the possibilities. Nowhere was my statement Definitively phrased.

The controls ARE placed incorrectly for that use, AND the maker confirmed my assertion that the customer for this particular guitar was probably a "Blues" orientated player.
Whilst I pretty sure you don't need instruction in steel guitar playing, I'm not so sure about reading interpretation and social skills.

What I said was "Speculative Conjecture" with no attempt to impose a "Set in Stone" slant to the analysis.

So please explain to me what I said that warranted the "Silly" remark ?

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 8 Apr 2009 12:16 pm

Just my $0.02

basilh wrote:Was the electric one a "Special Order" as I see the tone and volume controls are far from the optimum position, their placement is negating the possibility of the "Violining and Bo Wah" effects..

Surely a "Pro" player wouldn't want the controls there, Unless it's a special order for someone who hasn't any use for those tools in his armoury ! Which in reflection would probably eliminate MOST "Pro" players from the equation.

If the placement of volume/tone controls was a requirement for a "pro" instrument, then what about all them pedal steels?

Anyway, the controls are not really placed in such a way as I couldn't use them, though it's true I wouldn't find the placement optimal.

Pick-up placement is also a little strange unless the player is going to use the instrument for blues and such like semi overdriven applications.

The pickup looks to me to be in the same place as a Strat middle pickup, with is one of my absolute favorite clean tones. Nothing weird there.

I would also question the machine heads orientation, facing up would be a "Pro's" choice in most instances, facilitating quick fine tuning adjustments.

Many lap steels and resonators I see (including models costing multi-thousands of dollars) have the tuning keys mounted exactly the same way (pointing out to the sides.) Once again, nothing to do with "Pro".

The actual fact of the matter is that many "Pros" simply don't care about such things and can pull their sound out of almost anything.

Oh yes, and to make an on-topic point, I also find I have intonation problems with really heavy wound strings. I figure it's the nature of the beast, and I don't know if an intonatable bridge would make a difference or not.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 Apr 2009 12:25 pm

The actual fact of the matter is that many "Pros" simply don't care about such things and can pull their sound out of almost anything.

Twayne would that be an actual fact based on your own experience, or just your own opinion as a protagonist on this Anti-Basil Day ?

You see, where I say "Probably", you say "The Actual Fact etc." : isn't that rather presumptuous ?

Also you say

what about all them pedal steels?

Now THAT would be questioning, except, If you PLEASE read my post again, do I not state "Lap Steel" ?