Tabs vs Learning by ear!

[Kenny Martin]

Well, this started because of having a conversation with an awesome steel player in the up-state of SC.

We were talking about learning without tabs so i thought i would post my opinion with this clip to see what the forum players think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovdg0nX-GwM

Thanks!
Kenny

[Don Drummer]

I agree that ear training must come first. Tab comes second. I learned to play "Los Golandrinas", the Emmons version, by ear off of a Star Day compilation album but I felt commpelled to to write it out in tab too. This was my way of seeing what was going on and to ensure that I didn't forget it if I stopped playing it for some time. In the last year or so I've only listened to one steel guitar CD, Randy Beavers "My favorite Things", the degree of complexity of his playing requires me to listen to a phrase over and over and over and try to play what he is playing. Now a little help using tab would be welcomed at this point. Don D.

[Kenny Martin]

Yep, i agree the tab can set you straight! I guess what i was trying to communicate was you can get to mechanical if you only work with tabs!

Phrasing, style and personality in your left hand as Buck Reid told me, comes from having to feel it, hear it and work own way of playing first.

Thanks for the comment man!!

kenny

[Don Drummer]

Folks, Kenny is right about that. For all you newbies it is important to know the basics and use that knowledge as a reference for futher learning. And above all remember music is a language. Language is both written and spoken and emotion is the key to getting your point across. IMHO Don D.

[Bo Borland]

I think ear training is of the highest importance right along with the physical techniques required to play properly (left & right hand and body positioning), and some basic music theory will take you farther than tab only.

Most every one I hear who plays tab only or learned to play only by tab sound kind of souless to me.

It's like learning to play by only reading the standard music notation, take it away and your left with someone who can't improvise and create.

As an example,
While there is no "one right way" to hold the bar, wear picks, create vibrato, sit behind a steel, or hold and play a six string.. there is the "preferred" way used by the top dogs. I think it would serve a player well to note these techniques and use them.

Beyond all of that, I am still not sure if having a musical "ear" is something that can be taught.

[Kenny Martin]

What Bo Said!!

Yep, i'm with ya on the "Ear" thing being taught!
I think it comes natural as you learn to play if you have it.

I like sitting in and have someone in the band turn and say, grab a G and hang on!! If i hear it coming i'll play it!

Just my way on things!
Thanks Bo!!

Kenny

[John McGlothlin]

I agree that the learning by ear is much better...it was 3 years ago that I first learned how and when to use the second string drop on the E9 tuning by listening to a Hank Thompson LP. The song is "Ages And Ages Ago" and the steel player is Curly Chalker and the ride he is doing is on the second verse of the song and it is a beautiful move with palm blocking and using that knee lever that drops the second string down to D. I used a recorder that let me slow a song down and I clipped that one section out and slowed it down and ran though it about a thousand and a half times til I got the hang of it. That opened up a new road for me with grabbing hold of some of the good classic sounds of the pedal steel guitar.

[Kenny Martin]

Thanks John!

I just got a program to slow a song down and you are right it makes it easier to hear the notes especially on fast stuff.

Keep on a pickin man!

kenny

[Joseph Barcus]

I agree that Tab will get you how it should be played if it was tabbed out right to begin with. however I have found over the years that if you just read the tab and try to remember it (that dont happen) how I use tab is again if its the right tab play it then write my own tab without looking at the first tab, seems like it goes into a different part of my little brain and helps me remember better. another thing I will do is listen to a break try to tab it out then compare it to other tab people has done.
I got hired for a job once for a play only to find out when I got there they handed me sheet music and said your parts are highlighted. I said to them I dont know a thing about reading music. they let me play once then let me go. in the practice for the first time I said to a few of the guys doing a break lets play this song for the heck of it, they said (do you have the sheet music to it?) I said no I dont I play it by ear. they said they could not play by ear. so this tells me that learning only tab or sheet music can also have its downs as well.

[Don Drummer]

Joe, I know how you feel. I got the "Always Patsy Cline" gig knowing very little in terms of reading the score. I can read some and what little skill I had helped. What really helped was wwatching a video of the play. APC allows for a certain amount of ad lib playing. The most important skill for this production is following the score measure by measure. The first one I did here in Lewisburg the Piano Drums and Bass were all excelent sight readers and the cast were all full time pros. We rehearsed two times as the band and three times as a full cast. The next time we got together was opening night and it was not comfortable for me and the guitar player. Over time things got easier and we did a run the next year. A year later I got involved with a non professional crew for this play and I became the musical director by default. It took us three months of nearly constant practice to pull it off. It would of been so much easier if the non readers could of at least been able to follow a simple chord chart. But instead everybody had their own notes and sraps of paper. It is not always about sight reading individual notes for this show. But it is about being on the same page. I'm sure with your skills and the proper amount of preparation you would have done a fine job. PS. What finnally came together with the non pro cast was a piano player who could read. She came in five days before opening night. What a relief! Don D.

[John De Maille]

Having a good musical ear is essential for playing a fretless instrument Tabs, to me, are like a roadmap. They'll get you started, continue you on the path and hopefully get you to the end. But, if you can't actually hear what's going on, you're going to get lost. Usually, there's no timing on a tab, so, one has to know the tune to begin with. That's a major roadblock. And, of course, expression is not written on a tab sheet, so, feeling is left out. I have only used tab in limited situations. I play mainly by ear and figure things out for myself. I am lucky to have good ears. But, I think that, a novice needs a tab sheet to show them the way. A novice won't have the experience to know what pedal or knee lever to use to play a phrase. That's where tab becomes important. I do think, that, after the rookie phase is over and knowledge of the fretboard and the mechanics is understood, a player should be able to play without a tab sheet. I'm teaching a student, who, is figuring things out for himself. He's quite gifted that way and I think it's great. He shows real promise without tab. He records his lessons with a mini digital recorder and then goes home and practises. Back on topic- Tabs definately have a place in learning, but, a good ear is definately needed to play this instrument well.

[Joseph Barcus]

Don
Thanks for your input, yes thats a weird position to be in. dont think I would go down that road again. it only made a fool of me. by the way did you ever ask Wendy if she remembered me. Joe

[Kenny Martin]

Great stuff guys!

I agree that tabs puts everyone on the same page and also sheet music can piece it all together!

I think what i'm saying is that new players can spend too much time on paper! Study is an absolute but playing what you also feel is as well.

I'm teaching my 12 year old how to play which is a challenge because he wants to be Buddy Emmons in a day but watching him try to figure out what he hears is pretty cool. I'm teaching tabs but i also let him sit and play along with the record, which is always Brad Paisley "Mr. Police man!!

Personality, phrasing and for me, a little attitude in the left hand needs to be a new players part of practice!

Anyways i'm ramblin again but thanks for the comments!!
Kenny

[Don Drummer]

Joe, I hate that feeling too! Wendy sends her regards and does remember that recording session from way back. Google Taylor Made Band and go to the PPK press kit site. There are lots of pictures. Tell me if yiu recignise her. DonD.

[Don Drummer]

Joe, make that Taylor made country band when typing your search. Don D.

[Joseph Barcus]

Don
she has changed alot since ive seen her last. tell her I was not one that played guitar but the bass at that time. I think my brother was on the chase lol dont want her to think I was that one out of the twins. Joe

[Ron !]

If you want to sound like everybody else then learn the tabs.If you want to stand out and have your own sound that separates you from the rest then put your ears to work.

Ron

[Kenny Martin]

Thanks Ron! That's what i was tryin to say! You put it in plain english!!


kenny

[David Wright]

Kenny,
I agree with you 100%, great videos also, I think we started at the same time
I like your comment on JD, and Misty, I have sat next to him so many times while he played it, He is truly a Great Player,and has his "OWN" sound..))he is a hand full to copy playing from

I think it's great to play others licks, but "I" fell making it "Your" own is just as important...enjoy your playing, wish I had some of that speed

[Dick Sexton]

Great thread Kenny. I think you are going to have forumites come down on both ends of this issue and everywhere in between. None of which is wrong in my opinion. Of course others may disagree. I have done a lot of tabbing for myself and others. Some of my material and some of other players material. I started tabbing almost as soon as I started playing. It helped solidify what I was hearing and trying to learn. I first listened, then tabbed out what I was hearing. I also tabbed out what I was creating of my own. Over time I built up a record of my learning experience, years worth. If ever I had a problem remembering what I had played, I had a written record of the way I had once done it. Oh, and I almost never played the same thing, the same way twice. Mainly because I almost never feel the same way on any given two days. When I started offering tab under "Beginners Notes", I was asked to put up videos of the tab. I have not done that, mainly because I don't want anyone to be locked into the way I might do something(Right or Wrong). In my mind, tab is nothing more then a road map or diagram of a mechanical process or operation. Put the bar here, push this pedal, pick this string, etc. To me it's not music. I don't think it was ever meant to be. I think the masters of years gone buy, on whatever instrument, wrote tab to reach a larger audience of students. A master could hand tab to ten students and say, learn to play this. Ten students would come back with ten different ways to play what the master had offered. One or two, of what came back, may have even been genius. My point I guess is, tab has its place, it is a tool, just as your recorder or CD player is as far as learning steel guitar goes(any instrument really). I think all tools should be used to move you along in your musical experience. After I stopped playing for over 10 years, the tabbed record of what I'd done before quitting was invaluable. I'm very glad now that I tabbed what I had learned. Of course, it may not be for everyone, and in itself will not get you there.

[Mike Neer]

Kenny, I agree 100%. I've always done it by ear. If my ear fails me, then it probably wasn't meant to be, that's the way I look at it. Having perfect pitch (or close to it) has been invaluable. Also, internalizing the music through listening just seems to make it stick to the ribs a little better, although I'm sure there are some folks who have a better internalization through visualization. I'm not one of them.

[Kenny Martin]

Hey Dick!!

I agree with you in short that tabs are as important when you are learning and continue to learn as i do!

I use tabs after i have learned it to see if i'm close as well as to get a little help in a part that is hard to hear.

So yes, it is needed and i thank you so much for what you do.

I have had a large number of emails asking for tabs on what i do so this kind of started the conversation.

I think that's why i like doing a clip and explain visually what i do. I am no where near at doing this as good Mickey Adams or really anybody but its how i do it.

I want everyone who reads this to understand i am not saying to not use tabs. Just the opposite but i am saying to also take the time to feel, hear and present what you play by listening as well!! From the heart!!!

Hey, i'm a nobody and the SGF has been a good place for me to learn and hear what you guys think of how i play. Don't have anybody near me to bounce things off!!

Thanks for the comments from everybody, good and bad!

Kenny

[Dick Sexton]

Kenny, you'll always have me and my #1 bud, Greg to bounce your stuff off of. We may never be able to play it, but we sure do like to listen to you play it.

I think we are in tune on the tab and learning by listening. I've never met two people that learned exactly alike. Each person has their own triggers that allow learning to happen (likewise things that stop the learning process). It is a lucky person that finds what those triggers are early in life. Some never do.

Again, I'm glad you started this thread. Great food for thought.

[Kenny Martin]

Thanks Dick! Yea you and the Wisecup have been very nice to me and i appreciate it!

Even though old Wisecup was kickin this old redneck around about S.C.!!!

I realized after watching myself play and thinking through my clips that i pretty much play everything by ear. The band i work with said i don't play a lead the same way all the time.
Now if there is a signature run in it i try to copy it but i always spin it off with what i feel.

Tabs can get you straight when you can't figure out what you hear! The AJ tune "You don't even know my name" was one that really wore me out. I finally had it sounding the same as Paul Franklin did it but when i saw the tab i was way off! Now that i know where he played it my other run became a new lick!!! I have since expanded that one into another fast tune!

So there ya go! That's how sometimes hearing it helps and getting the tab improves what you've learned!

I would find it interesting to hear Paul's or Tommy White's opinion on this!!!

Thanks again guys!!
kenny

[Jeff Colson]

I have Paul Franklin instruction from the early 80's and as recent as this year. The one thing that always impressed me about his teaching is it's always explained on a Tape or a CD no tab. It's hard for me to get the phrasing from tab especially if there is some point where you really drag something in while engaging or letting off pedal or knee lever combination that is always better explained than to try to figure out from paper. Of course there is no substitute for experience, it's a lot easier now than it was 30 years ago !

Jeff