Spade Cooley soundie, 1945; isn't this Joaquin Murphey??

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 15 Mar 2009 4:03 pm

Here is a 1945 Spade Cooley soundie with Patricia McMahon doing the vocal on Shame On You. This video was posted only a month ago by McMahon's niece. I had never seen it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgzeLlBjD6Q

Isn't this Joaquin? I have seen so few pictures of him from 1944-45 that I can't be positive. It looks like the same guitar he played in "Rockin' In The Rockies", the Three Stooges movie with Spade on "Miss Molly", also from 1945.

Here is a series of 4 screen caps. The top 2 are from Rockin' In The Rockies. The bottom two are from the Shame On You soundie and show Johnny Weis on standard guitar as well.

You can see the same discoloration on the front edge of the guitar in all 4 pictures. I assume this is his 1945 Bigsby in all cases?

The hairline, hair color, player's stature, and the guitar look alike in all 4 pictures.

But I don't have any info on pre-Murphey steel players for Spade and I suppose someone else may have been standing in for Joaquin in Shame On You. There aren't any hot licks that would immediately identify him.

Lee Jeffriess · Post by **Lee Jeffriess** » 15 Mar 2009 4:51 pm

Mitch, looks like JM to me.
The last pic, has caught his face with an unfamiliar expression, but I would say its definetly him.
I believe Dick Roberts? was the original steel player in Cooley's band.
I remember Joaquin telling me at one point, they both played steel.
I think Roberts played another instrument, and when JM came on board, he basically said let the kid play all the steel.
Joaquin told me he wasn't very comfortable with the decision, but Roberts really wasn't a serious steel player, and told Joaquin he was OK.
I wish I could remember what his 1st instrument was I want to say he was really a trombone player?.
I wonder how they sounded in the war years?
Lee

Todd Clinesmith · Post by **Todd Clinesmith** » 15 Mar 2009 5:19 pm

Thats a tough one. I watched the soundie and I imagine doing a "video" they did not give JM the loose reign he normally gets, so I don't think judging his licks are viable here. Being hunched up in that seat has something to do with the odd facial expression I'm sure. One thing that stands out is he has JM's ears. That is a feature that always stands out to me on Murph. The steel is his Bigsby, and his steel could even be as early as a 44 ??

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 15 Mar 2009 6:46 pm

Sorry, guys -- but there is no way I could ever agree that the steel player even looks a little bit like Joaquin.

Did you notice that Tex Williams was one of the singers?

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 15 Mar 2009 7:14 pm

Roy:

Do you think any of the above 4 screen captures are Joaquin?

I found a 1942 picture of Spade's band, with Dick Roberts, Spade's earlier steel player. Here is a blow-up of Roberts from that picture; it's not too clear.

Here is a high quality pic of Joaquin from when he was with the Plainsmen, no later than 1947--only two years after the Three Stooges film and the Spade Cooley soundie:

His face appears fuller than in any 1945 era picture I have ever seen.

When I first saw the Stooges film, I didn't think it was Joaquin because I was used to the fuller face.

Is that a Bigsby guitar in the video clip or not?? It certainly appears to be the same guitar as in the Stooges film, which supposedly is Murphey for sure.

Was Dick Roberts ever known to play a Bigsby?

Lee Jeffriess · Post by **Lee Jeffriess** » 15 Mar 2009 8:26 pm

Its definitely JM, as Todd points out the ears are a give away, he was a wing nut.
Roy, I think whats throwing it for you, is that he so skinny.
Mitch, I don't know what brand of steel DR played?.
Im pretty sure I have seen a pic of him in some kind of late 40's Merle Travis aggregation.
I wish I had been aware of Tommy Sargent's presence in the 90s.
I imagine,he would have been a wealth of info about this time period.
Btw, I bet Billy T would know Roberts?
Lee

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 15 Mar 2009 9:21 pm

Lee:

I took a look at the Hank Penny/Deuce Spriggens/Carolina Cotton video of "Missouri" from I think 1946. It's supposed to be either Roberts or Ralph Miele on steel, but the quality is mediocre. Whoever it is looks rail thin, with what appears to be a longer face than Roberts above--so it may in fact be Miele not Roberts.

Yeah, that last of the 4 vid caps above gives the guy a completely different look, nothing like what I would expect Murphey to look like. I wanted a shot where he looked at the camera.

Is Sargent deceased? I had an audio cassette recording of Doug McGinnis and Joaquin from the early 90s in which Joaquin states that he had not seen Sargent in a very long time. I think he said the last time he saw Tommy was when Sargent was working in a Hawaiian club in SoCal--maybe the Seven Seas?

That is Bigsby instrument number 1 in the film then? Looks like a double 6?

If you weren't aware of it, "Rockin' In The Rockies" is on DVD and it is a superb print, but our hero doesn't get any closeups.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 15 Mar 2009 9:56 pm

I vote it's Dick Roberts on Joaquin's guitar.Maybe Joaquin was sick that day?? ......bb

Lee Jeffriess · Post by **Lee Jeffriess** » 15 Mar 2009 10:09 pm

Mitch, Now you got me wondering, Ralph Mieli?.
That name rings a bell.
Im pretty sure JM told me Dick Roberts, but I could be wrong.
Believe me I kick myself for not recording some of the chats I have had with Various people.
I wish sometimes I had thought of those occasions, more in terms of an interview.
The guitar in the film is, as far as I know JM's first Bigsby, and its a D8.
If you look on the end of the headstock you can see the two extra tuners.
I had heard it was originally made as a D6, but Murphy wanted it modded??.
Mitch, do you not think the guy in all the pics is JM?.
Or just the first two.
I believe TS passed in 2002 in SoCal, from what I have been told, he was an early influence on JM.
Like Merle Travis's great steel playing skills, most people don't know that Joaquin was apparently a good standard guitar player.
I have often wondered if that, was Sargents true influence on Joaquin, I don't here any of his steel phrases in JM.
Lee

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 15 Mar 2009 10:37 pm

Lee:

If the guy in the soundie had been playing a Rickenbacker or National, etc, I would have not thought it was Joaquin.

But I knew the guitar pointed to Joaquin, considering "Rockin' In The Rockies". So I am really just wondering. The 3rd and 4th vidcaps don't look completely unlike him and I have been fooled before--Rockin' In The Rockies doesn't look like he did even 2 or 3 years later as he put on weight in his mid and late 20s.

So---I don't know. We need a high quality pic of Miele, Roberts, etc and we need Billy Tonnessen, Herb Steiner, etc to look at this. I think Herb said he has a good pic of either Roberts or Miele. The steel guy in the Hank Penny "Missouri" really looks skinny and probably at least 6 feet tall. He doesn't look particulary like Roberts, but it's tough to tell.

Here is another shot from Rockin' In The Rockies that doesn't look like Joaquin either--really thin face:

Lee Jeffriess · Post by **Lee Jeffriess** » 15 Mar 2009 10:54 pm

Thats, JM alright,he is about 21 in this pic.
Lee

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 16 Mar 2009 12:09 am

It's Murph! That guitar is the first D8 Bigsby built for him, the headstocks have six tuners on sides and two on the top, that's why it looks like it was a six string guitar, but it really is a D8.

Todd Clinesmith · Post by **Todd Clinesmith** » 16 Mar 2009 7:10 am

The Rockin in the Rockies is Joaquin.
The soundies is his guitar. It does not look like what I picture Joaquin to look like even tho all the features are there.... hairline,nose ears ect.
The second and third photos Mitch posted from both shows, has a similar facial expression .
Todd

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 16 Mar 2009 8:00 am

Agree that it's almost certainly Joaquin with his first Bigsby however I don't see his bar hand making the same runs I hear happening in the later part of the solo which is overall, not exactly how I'm used to hearing Joaquin phrase in relation to the beat. Any chance this was JM on camera with the whole thing being a fake performance to a pre-recorded track with someone else playing steel?

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 16 Mar 2009 1:01 pm

I have an old picture of Spade's band before Joaquin and Dick was holding a Banjo. Dick played an Multichord Steel with Spade. I saw him in person when my parents took me to see Spade at the County Barndance, Venice P:er Ballroom, Ca. I requested Dick to play "Little Coquette", and he did. When Dick left Spade he went to work and recorded with Happy Perryman. If you listen close, Dick was using his pedals to create some melody lines.

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 17 Mar 2009 11:48 am

Anyone notice the "Harp" to Joaquin's left. This was an integral part of the Band, played by Spike Featherstone.

I am working on posting some pictures of Spade's band in 1942. Iv'e got a new scanner and haven't been able to connect it to the Forum yet !

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 18 Mar 2009 3:27 pm

Billy:

Here is the only pic I can find of the 1942 era Cooley band. This is the pic from which I got the Dick Roberts blowup shown higher up in this thread. Roberts is second from right, with the banjo.

If you have any other pix of Roberts, Ralph Miele, or early Joaquin, I would hope you can post them to this thread.

To avoid any confusion: how confident are you that the steel player in the soundie I linked to ("Shame On You") is in fact Joaquin Murphey?? Roy Ayres appears to be adamant that it is NOT Joaquin.

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 18 Mar 2009 8:18 pm

Mitch:.
I beleive that it is Joaquin in the picture. By the time Roy Ayers met him in 1950 Joaquin probably put on some weight. I can't think of any other steel player that even resembled Joaquin. I also sort of remember seeing Joaquin at the Rancho playing the two neck lap steel guitar.

I do have some other circa 1942 pictures of the band which I am trying to post. They were sent to me in 2004 by Keith Titterington from Calgary, Alberta, Ca.
I called him the other night and he said go ahead and post them on the Forum. There are also pictures of other So. Calif. Bands in the late 30's and early 40's which I will also try to get posted ASAP. In the picture you posted Eddie Bennett is holding an Accordian but he actually played Piano. Spade did not have twin Accordians playing in the Band.

Lee Jeffriess · Post by **Lee Jeffriess** » 18 Mar 2009 8:22 pm

Mitch, Im so confident its JM in those pics, I would stake your reputation.
Lee

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 18 Mar 2009 8:39 pm

Lee:

My reputation? Hmmmmmmm. Wasn't aware I had one, but I may have been misinformed.

Do you have the "Western Swing" issue of Tom Bradshaw's Steel Guitar mag from 20 plus years ago? I have it stored away somewhere. There were a lot of pictures of SoCal bands from the 40s in that issue and there may be something identifiable of Miele or Roberts among them??

Billy:

Post that stuff in this thread when you can. It's a pity and a puzzle that no one has a high quality still of Joaquin from l945 or earlier.

Has Michael Johnstone, Chas Smith, or Herb Steiner seen this thread?

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 25 Mar 2009 6:31 pm

How anyone could even question this, is bizzare.

It's also obvious that the band is lip syncing to pre-recorded music, and that the director had JM put his steel up on the chair arms because they probably didn't like the way it looked when played normally, on his lap, and having to sit way forward in a chair like that.
No doubt Murph was ticked about the whole scene, thus the odd and strained face he makes as he's made to look the fool. He's stated that he really hated live recordings, for all the pressure of getting it perfect the one time.

Overall tho, a rare opportunity to see him 'play', and pretty cool to see Joaquin in a wierd situation like this. I'd like to see some of the scenes where he was riding a horse in a posse shoot, especially the time his horse turned on camera and hauled him back to the corral!

Anybody got the Three Stooges 'Rockin' In The Rockies' clip showing Murph's hands playing 'Miss Molly' w/Spade?

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Spade Cooley soundie, 1945; isn't this Joaquin Murphey??

Spade Cooley soundie, 1945; isn't this Joaquin Murphey??

Dick Roberts

It's Murph. End of story.