That confused me a little bOb.
Can you tell me where these positons would be for A minor? i think that would help me understand better since the song I'm working out parts for is in the key of A minor. no wait....
let me as a mental excercise try and transpose these positions myself. I might learn better that way also. Please correct me if needed. or give me a gold star if warranted
Okay transposing from E minor to A minor:
1. the first position you describe would appear on fret...8?
2. second position on fret 1 and 13?
3. 3rd position on fret 3 and 15?
just curious why you used E minor? perhaps because the song examples you gave were in E minor?
geez, again... sorry you guys have to hold my hand on the theory stuff, but thanks much for doing so..I know when I sit down to the guitar tonight good things are gonna happen
edit: oops we had a page break...heres what I am refering to so no one has to backtrack.
b0b wrote:I mostly use 3 positions for those pentatonic "shredding" solos in E minor (or E7th):
3rd fret: 2nd & 9th strings lowered to C#, bouncing on the first pedal. Root E is on the 5th and 10th strings with pedal down, and on the 2nd and 9th strings with the lever engaged.
8th fret: 4th & 8th strings lowered to D#, 2nd & 9th strings lowered to C#, bouncing on the first pedal. Root E is on the 3rd and 6th strings.
10th fret: 9th string lowered to C#, use B+C pedals. Root E is on the 1st and 7th strings, and on the 4th string with the C pedal down.
I’m in the process of putting together instructional material which is geared towards knowing what scales to practice and how to practice them and apply them to the music you’re playing. It will be focusing primarily on my new Expanded Minor Scales Chart, which is almost complete, but not ready for distribution yet. As always, the charts will be free of charge, and they’ll also be other material available that I’ll charge money for. Some of my focus will be on songs that are “outside” of country, because there are already so many good instructional materials available for country on pedal steel.
The charts, once they're available, will make it a lot easier to understand and play then the long-winded explanation I attempted below.
The bottom line: If you’re in practice with the scales I’ve diagrammed on the charts, you only have to determine the “safe” notes of the particular song, and you’ll have an excellent starting point as to what scale you should be playing. Experimenting and listening will tell you which of the scales works best.
I realize this is a lot of information, and you were probably under the impression there would be no math or music theory quiz at this time, so I hope you’re able to get something out of it.
Feel free to contact me for clarification if you’d like.
-- Marc
Minor Scale Explanation
What notes to play or what scale is appropriate if the chord is Am?
A very good and valid question, unfortunately there is not a simple straight-forward answer to it because there are so many options available.
There’s not just 1 Minor scale. There are actually many Minor scales and variations of Minor scales. They have different names and there are even different modes and variations of these scales. You may not know the names of all of them, but even if you know how to play all these scales, the next logical question is “How do I know when I should be playing one Minor scale as compared to another or how and when to combine them?”
The answer is -- you don’t know which scale to play!
Some times it will seem obvious, and other times it won’t.
You will need to experiment with an open mind and particularly open ears, and decide for yourself which scale or scale segment sounds best within the context of the musical piece you’re playing.
With enough hands-on playing and experimentation, you’ll eventually recognize some clues within the music, and then the process of figuring out which scale to use will become quicker and easier.
The 3 notes in an Am chord are A, C & E.
Obviously these 3 notes are “safe” and can be played when the chord is Am.
Are there any other “safe” notes?
Yes, I believe the notes B & D appear in so many different Minor scale mode variations, particularly when applied to modern pop, country, rock music, etc, that these notes are also “safe” most of the time.
OK, now we have 5 “safe” notes in an Am scale, A, B, C, D, & E, and for the sake of some simplicity, I’m considering these to be the only “safe” notes at this time to play over an Am.
It’s the next step that gets complicated, figuring out which notes between E & the higher octave A to use, if any, in your Am scale. The reason this gets confusing is because depending on the “flavor” of the song, all of those notes can be found, F, F#, G, & G#, and even within the same song some times! Also, some of these notes might only be found in the underlying chords or harmony structure, and not the melody of the lead vocal itself. Many times one or more of these notes may be only used sparingly as a turn-around or passing chord, so again, you can’t really categorize them as “safe” notes.
Here are some choices for note variations used between the E & A, to add to the ABCDE.
“G” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, G, & A.
“F” & “G” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, & A.
“F#” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F#, & A.
“F#” & “G” the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, & A.
“F” & “G#” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, & A.
“Walk Don’t Run” uses “G & “G#” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, G#, & A.
“Eleanor Rigby” uses “F” “F#” & “G” / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F, F#, G, & A.
“Tales from the crypt” TV theme song uses the notes: A, B, C, D, Eb, E, F, G#, & A.
Stairway to Heaven uses F, F#, G, & G#, / the scale is: A, B, C, D, E, F, F#, G, G#, & A
So does House of the Rising Sun, 25 or 6 to 4, Moondance, and plenty of others.
Obviously not country tunes, but surely not obscure songs.
George Harrison’s “Something” by the Beatles actually uses EVERY note there is, but it changes keys between C Major and A Major within the song and also uses a variation of an Am mode, and adding some passing-chords as well, so while it’s pleasing to the ear, it’s certainly not a typical song in regards to keys and scales.
“Safe” disclaimer
Even though we’ have defined certain notes as “safe, you still have to use discretion as to when you play those notes. Not every “safe” note will sound pleasing when played at the same time another “safe” note is being sung or played.
The E9 tuning by design is Major scale friendly and therefore Mode friendly.
Modes are our friends so I usually say stick to the Minor scales that are within the modes.
Example in the key of Am and if I decide on the Dorian Mode for my minor scale, I simply play as if I were in the key of G major. This lets me use all the pedals and knees just as if I were playing in G.
As you can visualize this is the old two frets back from the no pedal position A for the Am which in this case the 3rd fret which is also G and most don’t recognize this and don’t venture on to A & B down position for G which is at the 10th fret which is just as good a position to play Am as the 3rd fret position.
You can even play that old amazing three string 1 pedal thing in G for Am.
Here are my minors and the theory behind this.
G major scale...G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
A minor (Dorian)...A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A
C major scale................C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
A minor (Aeolian)..A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
F major...........F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F
A minor(Phrygian)....A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A
And my favorite Dark Mode
Bb major....................Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb
A minor (Locrian)...A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A,
I take the same approach when I play 7th chords. For an A7 chord I play in the D major scale and etc. I guess you might say when I’m on PSG I play in nothing but major scales.
This is alot to digest and honestly I havent had much time to attempt to do so.
bOb , I am having trouble working your positions.
Could you (or anyone else) give me an example , maybe a simple lick for the third fret position?
Bo- Im gonna have to re-read that a couple times, seems like there is some good stuff for me n there, maybe what Im looking for.
But for Am, why does G major work? I thought it would be C major because Am is the relative minor for C.
Marc-Im gonna re-read what you wrote a couple times today and hopefully this weekend I'll ge to put in some time applying it to the guitar.
Thanks again everyone. This forum is the best and so are all of you.
Ken-will do. Ive already learned alot from Mickeys vids and cant wait for his dvd to come out.
Ben Jones wrote:
bOb , I am having trouble working your positions.
Could you (or anyone else) give me an example , maybe a simple lick for the third fret position?
[tab]
1 ___3_________________________________
2 _____________________________________
3 _3___________________________________
4 _____3_______________________________
5 ________3A--3________________________
6 _______________3_____________________
7 __________________3__________________
8 _____________________3_______________
9 ________________________3D___________
10 __________________________ 3--3A____
[/tab]
Noodle aimlessly on these notes against an Em chord rhythm track for a while, and you'll see how it fits.
b0b wrote:I think the biggest "trick" in minor keys is when you realize that the scale changes on the V7 chord. For example when you're in A minor you play pretty much in the C, D and G positions over most of the chords. But when it goes to the E7, you want to temporarily "switch keys", almost as though you were in A major on the V7 chord.
The V7 chord in minor keys switches to a different set of positions. That's what makes minor progressions sound so cool.
What Bob refers to is called the "harmonic minor scale", where the sixth degree is minor and the seventh is major, so that the V chord is a major triad or dominant 7th. The "natural minor" scale is the Aeolian mode (b3, b6, b7), while the "melodic minor" scale uses the flat 6 and 7 in descending passages and the major ones in ascending passages.
So, for Em, the scale is the same a G major, except on the dominant it's E major.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Uh, no, the harmonic minor scale was not what I was referring to. I was explaining how in A minor you can use the same notes as a G major scale, except when you're on the V7 chord.
Following that same theory, in Em you would use the same notes as a D major scale. This is all assuming that the IV chord is major, not minor. There are two different minor modes in popular music.
Also, the "ascending/descending" rule is a lie. It makes no difference whether the melody is ascending or descending. Forget about that.
Or you could try getting away from your instrument. Then sing some parts that sound right with the song. Then go back to your ax and carefully find the notes that you sang. (works with major chords too)
Great to see you still on the Forum, dude. Best wishes to Erik!
Okay, go back to what y'all are talking about.
I think one thing Ben should do is learn the harmonized chords to the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales. Therein lies the positions and the melodies needed.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
The way I remember what major scale is the same as the minor modes for any Minor key is move up one fret from the major up or down position and then follow the cycle of 5ths for the four different minor modes and pick the one that fits best.
Example for A minor I would go one fret up from the A major up or down position and then follow the cycle of 5ths which in this case would be One fret up from A major which would be Bb and the cycle would be Bb, F, C, G. Choose one. The Dorian usually fits most minor keys. So as not to make this too long I just show the G major scale up and down position for (A minor Dorian).
Herb Steiner wrote:
I think one thing Ben should do is learn the harmonized chords to the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales. Therein lies the positions and the melodies needed.
Herb, whats a "melodic" minor scale?
Honestly, Im having a real hard time even understanding the answers to my question. This is MY shortcoming not any of yours. I know some of you are instructors. How do you deal with students who cant or wont learn theory? do you somehow get them to learn theory (if so any tips as to how?)? or do you somehow work without the theory? I just dont seem to be able to get myself to learn theory and its proving to be a real obstacle. I cannot even communicate with or understand other musicians.
I havent had much time to work on it this week. Maybe with some serious effort and time some of this stuff will click for me. Thus far none of it is coming easily.
Earnest your suggestion is in fact what I do quite a bit and how Ive arrived at the few blues patterns i know. The parts I am "singing" are guitar parts tho, and those arent always easily done on steel or if they are , theres often ten differnt ways to do em, and 9 out of ten will be more efficient and better sounding than the one i chose...so i was looking to see what others were doing. Unfortunately its hard for me to understand their answers because I am not fluent in their language(theory)
Just play "key of G" positions for your Am song, and be mindful of the chord progression. If one note sounds wrong with that approach, switch to "key of C" positions.
You don't have to memorize all that theory. I don't know harmonic vs melodic or dorian vs aolian - the names always confuse me. All you really need to know is the chords on your guitar.
Start with the major key position that's a step lower than your minor key (G for Am, D for Em, etc). If that doesn't quite work, go to the relative major key position (C for Am, G for Em, etc.). Learn the chord progression because the V chord will probably step out of your key positions temporarily, like the III or VI chords do in major key songs.
Thanks bOb. That G position is whats working for me now but I feel like Im stuck there and in my blues boxes and am repeating myself way too much. Luckily the band likes what I'm play in this song thus far. I'm just wishing I could bring a little more variety to it.
Ive got a lesson next tuesday, that should help as we'll be discussing this in depth.
Thanks again everyone for the very thoughtful responses. Its helped and hopefully I can delve a little further into it and understand a lil better .
Natural minor is simple to play on steel. For example, A natural minor (aolean mode) is the same as C major -- it is the minor scale "naturally" found inside a major scale. (Also known as the relative minor.) The notes are A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, same as in the key of C major, and the seven triads are the same as in C major also -- Am, B dim, C, Dm, E, F, and G.
Dorian mode is simple also. D dorian (the notes D, E, F, G, A, B, and C, and the same seven triads as above) is also the same as C major. In terms of sound, dorian is like natural minor except the sixth note of the scale is raised one fret. (A natural minor scale is A, B, C, D, E, F, and G; A dorian is A, B, C, D, E, F#, and G.)
But harmonic minor is complicated! There are still just seven notes in the scale (A harmonic minor has the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, and G#, like natural minor but with the seventh note of the scale raised one fret) but harmonic minor has TWELVE triads, not seven, and at least fourteen seventh chords. That's why they call it harmonic minor, because it has such complex harmonies!)
Many songs that are in natural minor switch to harmonic minor, and vice versa, and when it goes into harmonic minor, suddenly the chords get complicated. This is what has most of the previous entries so confused/wrong.
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
Sorry -- typo on that last entry. The chords in A natural minor are Am, B dim, C, Dm, Em, F, and G.
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
Earnest Bovine wrote:Or you could try getting away from your instrument. Then sing some parts that sound right with the song. Then go back to your ax and carefully find the notes that you sang. (works with major chords too)
In classical music, there is a minor scale that is different ascending and descending, called the melodic minor scale. Traditionally the composer would use a minor scale with a raised sixth and a raised seventh when the melody line is ascending (in A melodic minor, that would be the notes A, B, C, D, E, F#, and G#) and normal sixth and seventh notes when the melody line is descending (A, B, C, D, E, F, and G). But nobody ever EVER does this in country or rock or any other type of American popular music. So it is not a "lie" that melodic minor exists, but it is certainly not true that pedal steel players would ever be expected to know how to play it.
What is common, and what steel players do have to deal with all the time, is the transition from natural minor to harmonic minor that I mentioned in my previous posting. Thousands of songs do this, like when you've been in the key of A minor with C and G chords (natural minor), and suddenly there is a E or E7 chord (harmonic minor). Fun, fun, fun...
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
It's actually not true in classical music either, Barry. For every example you find where it's true, you can find another where it's not. The difference is not in the direction that the melody is moving. It's whether the underlying progression is moving towards the V7 or resolving from the V7.
Some music teacher long ago decided that it would be easier to explain as ascending/descending melody, to avoid the more complex questions that arise from chord theory in minor keys. It's just not true. The old master composers never switched scales based on whether a melody was ascending or descending. They adjusted the notes between b6 and 7 based on the underlying chordal context, just as pop composers do today.
I agree with b0b. The ascending and descending convention just applies when you are practicing scales. It just gives the student the idea of the two different sounds. In real music the composer chooses whatever fits for his melody and harmony.
Gosh I feel like a complete idiot after reading this thread. Guess this is why I work on intonation and tone, because I have no idea what you all just said.
