'' Session Players ''

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 24 Feb 2009 4:15 pm

This may be a dumb question but who knows ? I was wondering when you play sessions does the producer of the session ask you to not use your own personal effect devices ? I know some players use their own amps . I only do a few once and a while and quite frankly i do not like what i hear with the studio effect devices and that makes me unhappy ! I know some don't like the devices that you use for many reasons but i like mine better than theirs . They say they will make me happy in the final mix but i don't hear it ! I already know when you record for someone else its their deal but most of the time they really don't know what they are hearing ! Yeah i know steel players are strange people but it is what it is !

I really don't think some of the producers know the sound that makes steel players happy ! Who knows maybe i'm not making any sense at all ,if thats the case someone please educate me

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 24 Feb 2009 5:04 pm

When I participated in the session work for the three Hawaiian CD's.....with the exception of some 3 or 4 tunes, I was mixed down so low, I almost didn't
register within the 'hearing level'.
The host dubbed in a keyboard that rattled on and on throughout the recordings. I have nothing to say against the pianist but the decision to use it on the CD IMHO, is questionable. Likewise, the snare drum that was dubbed in IMHO distracted from the authenticity of the music.
JERRY BYRD advised me many years ago, to NEVER ALLOW anyone to put you thro' the board direct. He explained and warned that what they do to YOUR SOUND is unfathonable.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 24 Feb 2009 5:37 pm

For the little amount of work that I actually get, these days, I expect to be recorded dry. If they are going to use effects, those will be added later.

If they hired me because they wanted non-traditional steel, then I would use my own rack. They probably don't have anything that is better than what I have, and all my stuff has already been programmed for the sound that they were hiring me for, in the first place.

Fred Thompson · Post by **Fred Thompson** » 24 Feb 2009 5:48 pm

When I first started doing session work, because of my inexperience, I left it up to the producer/engineer to decide. I found that if the engineer was also a musician, and he let me have some say, my sound was fine, but otherwise, I would use my equipment, profex, or small amp with delay.
I've been very fortunate to record with experienced people at the controls who also WANTED steel on the project.
Hang in there

Fred

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 24 Feb 2009 5:57 pm

The basic common sense principle here is of course that effects can always be added later, but once recorded can't be removed or "tweaked", so you want to always err on the side of too little rather than too much (which sometimes isn't noticed until too late). For that reason almost all producers and engineers in my experience want minimal or no reverb from the player; they will frequently use very specific reverbs later to "place" the depth of an instrument in the final mix and they can't do that if it's already got much reverb. I record with an amp when I can (which is most of the time these days) and will sometimes use just a little reverb with no complaints.

More extreme effects such as distortion or wah-wah (on lap steels usually for me) can completely affect how you play the part and it can be best to record with them as long as everyone is in agreement that they are what the song or part calls for. A lot of times delays will fall in that category too if they're set for the tempo of the tune...

Just my two cents of course...

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Feb 2009 6:34 pm

What Pete said. If the steel part goes to tape with an effect, it's there forever.

I did quite a lot of studio work back in London, and, while pedal-steel was a relatively unknown quantity with producers and engineers years ago, I soon learned that only a minimal effect was the best policy.

I've just heard (coincidentally) an album I did in 1980 (the artist sent me a CD last week!) and that ZB sounded pretty great, I thought! It was virtually 'dry', too, but the mix was good.

(Only problem with that D-10 ZB? The undercarriage was pretty noisy - if I was sitting anywhere near my amp and mic, there'd be some interesting background noises on the record!)

Joshua Grange · Post by **Joshua Grange** » 24 Feb 2009 7:00 pm

I think Pete is right on the money here too.
There might be a few times when someone wants a decidedly atmospheric track in which case there won't be any complaints about the player using delay and reverb etc., but in most cases the 'effects' are best done minimally. There are some artists and producers who really want to hear the steel bone dry, NO verb at all. (When was the last time you played TOTALLY dry? It's a little weird to me but fun!) Usually a little amp verb is all it takes to satisfy both player and client.

The only real problems I've ever encountered are with engineers who insist on putting a DI between the steel and amp, tapping the dry signal and printing it on a separate track, for 'safety' or 'clarity'. Bad news for your tone!
Some engineers are more concerned with the technical aspect of sound capture instead of with tone and try to avoid the 'problems' of amp miking such as the amount of verb, hiss or any buzz.
That's had happened a few times before, and now I won't hesitate to have a frank talk with the engineer if that situation arises, whether on a TV show or in the studio. I think it's that important.
I had one guy on the set of a late night talk show actually yell at me in front of the whole union crew, stage hands, producers and directors, saying "Well why don't you just go work the damn console yourself!" as he stormed off the set. Well, so what. We did not use a DI that day.

As a side note, interestingly, I've started to use software for at home overdubs.
A company called Waves makes a program called GTR which uses a simple black box interface (or one can use their own mic-pre) to get proper level into ProTools. I didn't want to like it, but man it sounds terrific and the great thing is that after you record a track you can tweak the controls if you want to try out different (virtual) mics, cabs, speakers effects etc. I am REALLY impressed with it. I will still use an amp for certain things, but I'm using the GTR software more and more.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 24 Feb 2009 7:29 pm

Most of the studios I work in take my steel "dry", but will let me have reverb to my taste in my headphones, so I can play with the feel that I want.
If they let me use an amp (which I prefer), I add a little bit of reverb (and don't tell them).

It is aggrivating when they take you dry and tell you they'll add reverb in the mix, but they overlook it. Sometimes you'll record nice and crisp and when they send you a CD, you'll be buried or muddied up,
but it's out of your hands. Just give them the best you can under the conditions and don't worry about it.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Feb 2009 8:08 pm

Most all the stuff I've done was right into the board, no effects, and no amp. A good studio wants to use their own ($3000) reverb processor - not your $100 stomp box.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 24 Feb 2009 8:10 pm

Ray Montee wrote: JERRY BYRD advised me many years ago, to NEVER ALLOW anyone to put you thro' the board direct. He explained and warned that what they do to YOUR SOUND is unfathomable.

That was Jerry Byrd speaking as a solo artist with a recognisable sound, as far as the regular session musician goes it's NOT YOUR sound they want it's THEIR perception of what a steel SHOULD sound like in that particular instance, it's YOUR job to fulfil that wish.
If you intend to keep on working that is..

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Feb 2009 1:05 am

I usually refuse to record direct unless its for a jingle session. These days I mostly get hired to sound like I sound rather than because they just wanted pedalsteel on the track. So I end up working with the engineer to get the sound right. I always learn something new when I do sessions at good studios. For some reason nobody has bothered me about the DI thing for a while. When they do I just get my stuff all set up and ready to go and have them check my sound on a track. It hasn't been a problem yet.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Feb 2009 3:51 am

I am not a session player but do sessions, make sense ?

I carry my Steel and an amp and that's it. I did a bunch of sessions last year, the amp was placed in a small room off the main studio, mic'd and recorded dry. The feed in my phones had whatever I wanted in it, I opted for just a tad of reverb. I was asked about general effects with Steel and told them what I thought and that's what they used in the final mix, some reverb and a very slight slap delay, ever so slight so it would not interfere with other Instruments or vocals.

We are a strange breed here, we go to gigs, bring half the planet with us, set up with our rigs and effects and play away. The one thing that we are not able to take notice of is if some of our effects are actually clashing with the overall sound out front. Two amps, stereo delay, there is no way possible that at some point in the "evening" we are interfering with another instrument or voice, Live, that may be ok. On tape, it's not.

Don't worry though, I do it too !

just my take

tp

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 25 Feb 2009 6:00 am

Brother Pete is right on as usual. The only thing I could add is that when you print reverb with the track, if you need to punch in it can be a problem because a lot of times you end up cutting off the decay of the reverb unnaturally when you make the punch.....

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 25 Feb 2009 6:20 am

All the sessions I have done, was not on steel. But they let the steel player do his thing. Including Lloyd. I don't think they wanted to tell Lloyd how to play, and what sound they wanted. This was many years ago, and times have changed, and what they do in the control room is a crime. It never sounds the same, as what was played live. All of the time, we all tried different sounds, and created ideas, then took the best ones for the final cut. A new world is out there today.

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 25 Feb 2009 6:53 am

I really don't think some of the producers know the sound that makes steel players happy !

Gary, generally speaking, I don't think they care. The steel is just a small part of some bigger vision

(Unless you're lucky enough to be working with somebody like Tommy D. or some other steel-playing engineer/producer)

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 25 Feb 2009 7:23 am

If they don't like my efx (amp reverb and stompbox delay) then I have them "monitor" some efx for me.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 25 Feb 2009 7:25 am

Gary Preston wrote:I really don't think some of the producers know the sound that makes steel players happy !

That's probably true. However, producers do think they know the sound that sells and since they are paying you, they get to have it their way.

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 25 Feb 2009 7:36 am

Pete Finney wrote:...almost all producers and engineers in my experience want minimal or no reverb from the player; they will frequently use very specific reverbs later to "place" the depth of an instrument in the final mix and they can't do that if it's already got much reverb.

That's right. Stereo imaging not only allows for imaging from left to right, but also front to back, by way of dry or "wet" with reverb or delay. We need to keep an engineer's options open, IMO.

It's easy to get overly invested in our sound, I know. I tell myself, "it's just music, it's just music"...

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 25 Feb 2009 9:00 am

I never record with reverb, and I never record direct (not even a direct line in addition to the amp). The no reverb thing is fine for me, because I never use it anyway.

Recording direct isn't an option for me, because a lot of the tone comes from the interaction of steel and amp. It's obvious for rock and roll stuff (the engineer gets that usually) but even for clean steel tracks, the amp is key. If they want a generic steel track on the session, then can just get some tracks off the internet...

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 25 Feb 2009 11:06 am

Live I use a Walker Stereo Steel through Peavey 15's. My studio rack has a Transtubefex and a rarely used Roland GP-100. Nine times out of ten I just run the TTFex direct, or through a high-end comp or preamp.

I would roughly divide the producer/engineer crowd into those who want me to get my own sound, and perhaps educate them a bit about recording steel, and those who have a pre-conceived idea of what steel should sound like and how they want it recorded.
The few times I've run into someone wanting to record me direct, I quietly ask them to let me demo the TTFex sound direct, and they prefer it every time. The speed of getting different tones and effects (Chorus, EQ, sometimes ambiance) is always a plus. Another big plus for me is tracking in the control room, no phones, better communication with the producer.
Although I agree with the philosophy of recording dry, I've found more producers lately who want me to find an ambiance that blends with the track and record with that. Internet sessions are also more frequently asking for several tracks with verb/delay and one dry.
The "pre-conceived" guys often have an idea that some certain amp in their cabinet will yield the perfect steel sound, and I'll try anything they suggest. Sometimes it seems the right sound/feel for the track, and I'm happy. But often again I'll ask them to let me lay a track down through my rig, and frequently everyone prefers that.
The bottom line, as far as I can tell, is that everyone appears to love the steel sound before I leave.
I love the rack processor thing.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 25 Feb 2009 11:15 am

I'm hired to please the producer with the sounds and music I'm able to produce.
Because he pays, he gets the sound the way he wants it.
Normally I record dry, and if they like the wet sound, I give them a list with the effects and parameters I use. Mostly they are very pleased with that list, and will try to get that sound, after all editing is done

Johan

Jon Graboff · Post by **Jon Graboff** » 25 Feb 2009 11:19 am

I'd like to add something to this discussion. One thing I always try to keep in mind is that if you end up on a recording and your tone sucks, no one ever blames the producer or engineer! Listeners will say that this guy's tone is horrible!

So here's my rule of thumb: don't be inflexible, work with folks because no one's really interested in making you sound bad… they just may not know any better. If you're working with experienced and talented people, talk about your "vision" for the sound you think would be best for the track and you can usually agree on the appropriate sound. but if you're working with someone who insists on recording bone dry because they read somewhere that the pros do that… protect yourself and your reputation!

If they want you to record dry, I'll politely ask for some verb for "vibe". You hear it but it doesn't get recorded. And guess what? More often than not, they're reproduce pretty closely the sound you had while tracking because it sounded good!

It can all be a bit of a dance but it's very uncomfortable to ask later to keep your name out of the credits because they made you sound bad and you don't want to be associated with the project!

Dave Harmonson · Post by **Dave Harmonson** » 25 Feb 2009 11:55 am

Lately the sessions I've done the engineer told me to go ahead and use the effects I normally use. As a rule I play through a Fender Vibrosonic with a Boss digital reverb. Not put on thick, but enough to hear. At times they do want a dry signal and I try to get them to send me some reverb in the headphones because I'm a wimp and need it to play right. Really though I'm willing to record it however the person hiring me wants it. I figure it's their nickle and they have the right of control. If it's my project then I have the say. As mentioned before if you're using an overdriven or distortion part you need that when recorded because it changes the way you would play the part. The bottom line though is to do what you can to please the boss and then maybe you get more sessions.

Ben Strano · Post by **Ben Strano** » 25 Feb 2009 3:09 pm

As 99% recording engineer and 1% steel player I gotta give the big thumbs up to Pete. He nailed it.

If it is a full tracking session you can't believe how many things I have to worry about. So when the steel player asks me if I want verb (and most do ask) I tell them "use it if you have to, I would prefer it bone dry and I give it to you in the cans. This way I can add it on later and get it right. If it is going to change the way you play, do whatever you have to do and I will do the same".

Sometimes I will notice that there is too much verb and ask the player to turn it down or off... but most of the time I am chasing a bad cable, making sure my levels are good, making sure the producer isn't freaking out, making sure all of players are getting punched in where they need, making sure that the headphones sound right... etc... etc.

Now when I am mixing generally my thought process goes...

Everything sound good?
Vocal really good?
Can I hear the words?
Is the mix too quiet?
Drums good?
Kick and snare... are they really good?
Guitars good?
Backgrounds good?
Fiddle good?
Steel good?
How many cups of coffee have I really had?
Should I step away from it and come back?
Ok... everything working together?

Honestly... I rarely think about the perfect steel reverb... I put verb on it (usually an emt 140 plate) when I am getting the sound... unless it bugs me later on I don't think about it again. Is it the verb that every steel player would pick? I don't know... it is very low on my list of prioritys. My job is to make the artist, the producer, and the label happy. Trust me... that is hard enough as it is. It does mean a lot to me when a player says that they like how they sound on a recording... it really does. Unfortunately they are paying me and aren't gonna hire me next time.

I guarantee you 99.999% of the record buying public have never said "that steel reverb isn't quite right".

It would be nice if every player got the precise sound they were looking for... but trust me you can't. How are the drums gonna be louder than the guitar, which is louder than the singer, which is louder than the bass, which is louder than the tambourine, which is louder than the background vocals, which are louder than... the drums.

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 25 Feb 2009 3:37 pm

Thanks Ben...

But I gotta say if you've been working with Dan Baird it might be a minor miracle if you can still hear at all...!

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