Has anybody seen these strings?

[David Mason]

There's a bass player named Garry Goodman who is making custom strings for extended-range instruments - he is selling .007s that can get up to A4 on a 24" to 30" instrument, and he is going to be making extra big, +0.175" bass strings. I'll bet he could make a third string for you E9th sufferers that wouldn't pop.... his strings cost $5.25 a piece, but hey they don't break?

http://www.octave4plus.com/

[Donny Hinson]

I tried .008's and .009's decades ago.

Bad sound - way too thin and whiny for my tastes.

[Richard Sinkler]

Even a .010 is too thin. I'll bet that if you use one of his .011 strings, after a while it will pop. Or, go dead. $5.00 per string is robbery.

[Bill Ford]

S12= $63...I don't think so, not as long as I can get Geo Ls !!!

[Garry Goodman]

Hello,
I logged in to clarify some things, since this thread is about Octave4Plus strings. It seems my strings have been taken out of context here.

I only make one string for Steel guitars, and it was a request.

If you are going to trash my company, at least know what it is all about first.

First of all,I have been a working AFM musician since 1970. I have an extensive resume. I conceived of and had the first 7-string bass guitar built in 1987.
I started this string company for several reasons. When I conceived of a guitar with the range of the Bösendorfer 290 grand piano, there was no Ab4 string available for the 32" scale side of the single course 12-string, tuned:
C#0 F#0 B0 E1 A1 D2 G2 C3 F3 Bb3 Eb4 Ab4

This lead me to to work with a steel wire company to develop a string that would tune that high at that scale length. After hundreds of custom draws over a six year span, and countless hours of stringing up and testing the wire, I found that I had wire that would tune to A440 Hz up to the 30" scale. The wire is very special and cannot be compared to the "off the shelf" wire sold to most string companies. Octave4Plus strings are not for most musicians. I make strings no one else CAN or WILL make. I have taken the time to push carbon steel wire to it's manufacturing limits.

I took my wire to a major string company and they had trouble ball ending my wire. in addition,they had too many regular string orders to bother with me. I went to a smaller string company and had to wait months to get strings made.
I finally designed and built my own winder so I could wind or ball end any string up to the 60" scale.

I was contacted by guitarists who wanted A4 at 28", another wanted B4 at 25.5" ,so the b strings on a 2x6 12-string guitar could be in octaves . That is the 12th fret on a guitar's b string b,but as an open string. I have tried every plain steel string made, and they just won't tune that high. One fellow wanted F#4 at 34". We have the only string that can tune to that note at F#4 and bend.

The Octave4Plus G4 .006 for the 34" scale makes a 3 octave tuning possible for the 4x3 12-string basses and the .005 makes A4 at 30" scale guitars possible.
The .005 is stronger than, and will outlast most .007 plain steel strings.

A string costs $5 for two reasons. 1)The custom drawn wire is not like any wire made and it is in limited supply. 2) The ball end machines can't ball end .006,.005,.004 or .003 successfully. This forced me to design,manufacture and patent a new ball ending system. The ball ends cost ME $3.50 each. After costs and labor and overhead, I make about $.018 per string. It may take me months to get just the right wire drawn that sounds good and has the right tension.

Most of the strings on the Octave4Plus order page originated as custom orders and are there so these guitarists can reorder. The 7,8,9,10,11 string guitars and basses between 25.5" and 30" can have a high A440 or B 493.88Hz open string that won't snap. I make bass strings that are .262 and tune to G#00,12.98 Hz. I make bass strings for basses that are 37"+ plus scale instruments. You won't find these specialty strings anywhere else.

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing.
I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing. The string employs an optional protective wind that extends over the changer. He tried the string and reported 80+ hours of playing and then put the string on another guitar. I sent some more strings to him months ago, but have yet to hear back.

This .012 is there for anyone interested in trying the string. The same .012 lasts and sounds like new for 8 months or so at 32" on my single course 12-string bass.

None of you gentleman have tried my .008,.009 or .010 so how can you say they are "way to thin sounding"?

"'ll bet that if you use one of his .011 strings, after a while it will pop. Or, go dead. $5.00 per string is robbery."
Really? How can you say this?

This .011 is the ONLY .011 that can tune to and maintain A 440 at the 26" scale. I have Jazz guitarists using this string and they report the strings have lasted for over a year. The .011 E4 string will do the same and it costs $2.30.
If you think low tensile wire made into 1300 strings per minute on an automated machine somewhere in Asia that will go dead in a few weeks and NEVER can tune to these note is great, then robbery it is!

We make A440 strings with gauges from .004 to .015. No other company offers these strings. They don't break easily,unless abused and they won't pop or go dead in a few weeks.

If anyone here wants to know more, I will gladly answer any questions you have.
Thanks

[Gordy Hall]

Thanks, Garry. That's all great information. Sounds like you have spent lots of time studying and experimenting with the different string thicknesses.

Can you tell us how to order your strings?

Thanks,

[Wiz Feinberg]

Hello,
I logged in to clarify some things, since this thread is about Octave4Plus strings. It seems my strings have been taken out of context here.

I only make one string for Steel guitars, and it was a request.

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing. I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing. The string employs an optional protective wind that extends over the changer. He tried the string and reported 80+ hours of playing and then put the string on another guitar. I sent some more strings to him months ago, but have yet to hear back.

This .012 is there for anyone interested in trying the string. The same .012 lasts and sounds like new for 8 months or so at 32" on my single course 12-string bass.

If anyone here wants to know more, I will gladly answer any questions you have.
Thanks

Garry;
I'd be interested in trying your .011 or .012 plain strings, provided they have a short twist after the ball end. By short twist I mean a twist extending no more than 1/2 beyond the ball. This is not just to prevent breakage, but to prevent scoring the top of the bridge "fingers" that pull and lower the strings.

My steel guitar is an Emmons brand, with a 24" scale. I require about 6" longer to install it, making about 30" to 31" total length.

You can contact me via the email link under this post.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Garry,
Thanks for the info. My issue with pedalsteel strings is not the breakage. I find that because of the constant changing tension on pedal steel strings that the overtones start to ring in an uneven way well before they break. I change them when the odd partials of the overtone series become as loud as the even partials. Do your strings keep there structural integrity under the extra stress pedal steels put on them ?

Is the tension per gauge on your strings the same as others ? Example, would a .011 plain of your strings feel more taut or springy than another string after being tuned to pitch ?

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain yourself.

[Donny Hinson]

None of you gentleman have tried my .008,.009 or .010 so how can you say they are "way to thin sounding"?

While I respect both you and your work, I must say I made that comment because I believe that the size of a string has more to do with it's sound than the particular steel alloy it's made of. Almost 50 years of playing (and a modicum of common sense) has taught me that the thinner a string gets, the thinner it's sound also becomes. Can you prove otherwise?

[basilh]

The string employs an optional protective wind that extends over the changer. He tried the string and reported 80+ hours of playing and then put the string on another guitar. I sent some more strings to him months ago, but have yet to hear back.

I would be surprised if you did hear back, a string that has windings extending over the changer will not only damage the guitar but the extended windings will create wolf tones within the string. The reverse HAS been tried by manufacturers with regard to wound strings where the winding starts AFTER the bridge, this has proven to be ONE method of extending the string tonality.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I found this website of Garry's

http://octave4plus.com/

He might be on to something well worth looking into.

Looking down at a dangling 5th st right before a solo at a concert hall is something to be avoided if possible !

[Dave Mudgett]

Garry, thanks for your explanation. You're discussing a paradigm shift in strings, so it's not surprising that these points are not obvious. The other thing is that many players are just fine with their current strings - so why change.

With the "usual" string gauges, my biggest problem is not string breakage, but rapid loss of tone, as Bob says. I can leave strings on most of my steels for anywhere from several weeks to several months without breakage, but they start to sound bad after a week or two - especially the plain strings.

Some of these guitars are also a real pain to change strings on - and my time is limited. There are plenty of days when I have to decide between taking time to play or to change my strings, but not both.

I also have not found a plain sixth string (.020 usually) for which I'm truly happy with the tone. I'm not sure how this process would affect that - I always assumed the problem was excess stiffness due to the high-diameter string, but I haven't studied it. Of course, the wound-sixth solution can be used, but getting the G#3=>F#3 drop that I use quite a bit is not always possible, I assume due to the thin core used. Garry - any comment on that?

Donny - the only way anybody can prove anything either way would be to try it for oneself. But I don't think he's recommending an .007 string for pedal steel - I assume that was for something quite different. Here's what he actually said:

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing. I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing.

I generally prefer the sound of a .012 string for G#4 - but they are not the "usual" gauge, and thus do tend to break early - and it is quite painful to my left hand when they do. If he really has a .012 string that can be tuned to G#4 and really last and maintain tonality for months, I think it's worth $5 a pop.

I'll be in touch.

[Garry Goodman]

Thanks, Garry. That's all great information. Sounds like you have spent lots of time studying and experimenting with the different string thicknesses.

Can you tell us how to order your strings?

Thanks,

Hi-the strings that have been tested and that are now available are at http://octave4plus.com.

I have been working with two players to make some different options for Steel Guitar available.Thanks

[Garry Goodman]

Hello,
I logged in to clarify some things, since this thread is about Octave4Plus strings. It seems my strings have been taken out of context here.

I only make one string for Steel guitars, and it was a request.

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing. I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing. The string employs an optional protective wind that extends over the changer. He tried the string and reported 80+ hours of playing and then put the string on another guitar. I sent some more strings to him months ago, but have yet to hear back.

This .012 is there for anyone interested in trying the string. The same .012 lasts and sounds like new for 8 months or so at 32" on my single course 12-string bass.

If anyone here wants to know more, I will gladly answer any questions you have.
Thanks

Garry;
I'd be interested in trying your .011 or .012 plain strings, provided they have a short twist after the ball end. By short twist I mean a twist extending no more than 1/2 beyond the ball. This is not just to prevent breakage, but to prevent scoring the top of the bridge "fingers" that pull and lower the strings.

My steel guitar is an Emmons brand, with a 24" scale. I require about 6" longer to install it, making about 30" to 31" total length.

You can contact me via the email link under this post.

hi, yes,I will contact you.

[Garry Goodman]

Garry,
Thanks for the info. My issue with pedalsteel strings is not the breakage. I find that because of the constant changing tension on pedal steel strings that the overtones start to ring in an uneven way well before they break. I change them when the odd partials of the overtone series become as loud as the even partials. Do your strings keep there structural integrity under the extra stress pedal steels put on them ?

Is the tension per gauge on your strings the same as others ? Example, would a .011 plain of your strings feel more taut or springy than another string after being tuned to pitch ?

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain yourself.

Bob,
The wire used on the octave4plus strings will react like any carbon steel wire as far as the pull tension and pitch relationship. A string tuned to a particular pitch at 26" for example, will show up on a force gauge at a similar lbf on several different brands of .007s . So the tension is similar.
The strings do keep their structural integrity, perhaps longer than other strings. Once the wire has had some "creep" time, the string will take repeated bending for longer periods of time than most other strings with the same gauge. The strings seem to keep that new sound longer than other plain steel strings.

The problem I am having with Steel Guitar is that nobody wants to set the string up. With the .012, if you tune it to e4 and can let the string sit for several hours or even overnight before tuning to g#4, the string will have had time to stretch. Then the wire will take the stress of being pulled and released by the changer better.
I have several different versions of each gauge, some with some stress relief that gives the string a looser tension.
I am asked "What if I break the string on stage? I can't wait over night".
The string can be tuned up in a hurry,but I find that when the string was "set up" properly ,the wire seems to last quite awhile, keep it's tone and remaining fairly consistent. I have had good reports from the two Steel players who have used the .012. I am open to developing a better string. Please feel free to contact me at octave4plus.com.

[Garry Goodman]

None of you gentleman have tried my .008,.009 or .010 so how can you say they are "way to thin sounding"?

While I respect both you and your work, I must say I made that comment because I believe that the size of a string has more to do with it's sound than the particular steel alloy it's made of. Almost 50 years of playing (and a modicum of common sense) has taught me that the thinner a string gets, the thinner it's sound also becomes. Can you prove otherwise?

Donny,you are right. Your experience has been with existing strings made a certain way. The octave4plus strings are the result of years of pushing carbon steel wire to it's limits. This type of .010 tuned to a440 sounds very full.
I have an .006 on the 34" scale 4x3 12-string bass and it is tuned to 3rd fret g4 on a guitars high e string. This allows me to have each course tuned to a different octave. The g2 bass string,the g3 open guitar g,and this g4,the 3rd fret e string g as the highest open string.
aside from the fact that no other string can tune this high, you can hear how warm this .006 string is,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... pr=goog-sl


Here is an . 005 string tuned as an open string to C5(8th fret high guitar e string) at the 25" scale. It is a 12-string tuned in 4ths b e a d g c, and each higher string is an octave above the root string.it has a warm,transparent sound, like at 1:56 on the clip. Sorry about the lack of intonation and bad playing:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1898&hl=en

I am not hearing these as tinny. Please try listening through some decent headphones. Just for contrast,here is the B00,15Hz string:http://garrygoodman.com/BassNote%20.wav
Thanks

[Garry Goodman]

The string employs an optional protective wind that extends over the changer. He tried the string and reported 80+ hours of playing and then put the string on another guitar. I sent some more strings to him months ago, but have yet to hear back.

I would be surprised if you did hear back, a string that has windings extending over the changer will not only damage the guitar but the extended windings will create wolf tones within the string. The reverse HAS been tried by manufacturers with regard to wound strings where the winding starts AFTER the bridge, this has proven to be ONE method of extending the string tonality.

Not al the strings had this wrap. I did hear back,and maybe this person will post here.I used a special .001 wrap now and it's very soft annealed wire .How will this damage the guitar? Thanks

[Garry Goodman]

Garry, thanks for your explanation. You're discussing a paradigm shift in strings, so it's not surprising that these points are not obvious. The other thing is that many players are just fine with their current strings - so why change.

With the "usual" string gauges, my biggest problem is not string breakage, but rapid loss of tone, as Bob says. I can leave strings on most of my steels for anywhere from several weeks to several months without breakage, but they start to sound bad after a week or two - especially the plain strings.

Some of these guitars are also a real pain to change strings on - and my time is limited. There are plenty of days when I have to decide between taking time to play or to change my strings, but not both.

I also have not found a plain sixth string (.020 usually) for which I'm truly happy with the tone. I'm not sure how this process would affect that - I always assumed the problem was excess stiffness due to the high-diameter string, but I haven't studied it. Of course, the wound-sixth solution can be used, but getting the G#3=>F#3 drop that I use quite a bit is not always possible, I assume due to the thin core used. Garry - any comment on that?

Donny - the only way anybody can prove anything either way would be to try it for oneself. But I don't think he's recommending an .007 string for pedal steel - I assume that was for something quite different. Here's what he actually said:

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing. I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing.

I generally prefer the sound of a .012 string for G#4 - but they are not the "usual" gauge, and thus do tend to break early - and it is quite painful to my left hand when they do. If he really has a .012 string that can be tuned to G#4 and really last and maintain tonality for months, I think it's worth $5 a pop.

I'll be in touch.

David,
I did not post here to sell strings or convince anyone to change brands.I don't play Steel but I have one on loan and I am open to trying to solve problems.
The octave4plus strings have solved many problems for guitarists who have hit dead ends looking for a string solution. I just posted here to say to those that think I overcharge to take a look at what we are doing before passing any judgement .
As you can see at octave4plus.com, I sell mostly electric guitar and electric bass strings that most of which can't be found anywhere else. Guys who want a c#0 ,17 Hz string for their 36" Chapman Stick etc.

The steel player requested the .012 and I had the wire custom drawn.
I have some plain steel .020.
The more I understand Steel player's string needs,the better I can make strings for those who have special string needs.
Hopefully the gentleman who tried the .012 will join in.
BTW the .012 for Steel Guitar is $3.95. The specialty strings standard electric guitars are more expensive.

[Garry Goodman]

Garry, thanks for your explanation. You're discussing a paradigm shift in strings, so it's not surprising that these points are not obvious. The other thing is that many players are just fine with their current strings - so why change.

With the "usual" string gauges, my biggest problem is not string breakage, but rapid loss of tone, as Bob says. I can leave strings on most of my steels for anywhere from several weeks to several months without breakage, but they start to sound bad after a week or two - especially the plain strings.

Some of these guitars are also a real pain to change strings on - and my time is limited. There are plenty of days when I have to decide between taking time to play or to change my strings, but not both.

I also have not found a plain sixth string (.020 usually) for which I'm truly happy with the tone. I'm not sure how this process would affect that - I always assumed the problem was excess stiffness due to the high-diameter string, but I haven't studied it. Of course, the wound-sixth solution can be used, but getting the G#3=>F#3 drop that I use quite a bit is not always possible, I assume due to the thin core used. Garry - any comment on that?

Donny - the only way anybody can prove anything either way would be to try it for oneself. But I don't think he's recommending an .007 string for pedal steel - I assume that was for something quite different. Here's what he actually said:

I was contacted by a Pedal Steel player because he wanted a G#4/A4 string that would last longer than 60 hours of playing. I had an .012 custom drawn that keeps it's tone for months and has lasted 80+ hours of playing.

I generally prefer the sound of a .012 string for G#4 - but they are not the "usual" gauge, and thus do tend to break early - and it is quite painful to my left hand when they do. If he really has a .012 string that can be tuned to G#4 and really last and maintain tonality for months, I think it's worth $5 a pop.

I'll be in touch.

David,
I did not post here to sell strings or convince anyone to change brands.I don't play Steel but I have one on loan and I am open to trying to solve problems.
The octave4plus strings have solved many problems for guitarists who have hit dead ends looking for a string solution. I just posted here to say to those that think I overcharge to take a look at what we are doing before passing any judgement .
As you can see at octave4plus.com, I sell mostly electric guitar and electric bass strings that most of which can't be found anywhere else. Guys who want a c#0 ,17 Hz string for their 36" Chapman Stick etc.

The steel player requested the .012 and I had the wire custom drawn.
I have some plain steel .020.
The more I understand Steel player's string needs,the better I can make strings for those who have special string needs.
Hopefully the gentleman who tried the .012 will join in.
BTW the .012 for Steel Guitar is $3.95. The specialty strings standard electric guitars are more expensive.

[Clyde Mattocks]

In addressing the concern of "What if I break a string on a gig? I don't have time to let the string sit overnight before pulling it up to pitch" (paraphrasing). It seems to me it would be a small inconvenience to have a regular .011 (GHS, Ernie Ball, or whatever) at the ready to finish out the gig, then change it out the next day. It would certainly be worth that to have a string that would be tonally stable and not break for months.

[Donny Hinson]

Gary, I'd like to hear one of your strings on a pedal steel. This is, after all, a steel guitar forum, and all these clips of 12 string guitars and bass guitars really don't tell me much. Pedal steel is a unique animal. It's a solid-bodied guitar with only one pickup that's quite close to the bridge. Add to that we use a solid steel bar as a slide, and most of us use metal finger picks, and you can see why it's real easy for a thin string to sound thin and whiney. Right now, most of us use an .011 or .0115 string for the G#, and they'll probably last at least a few weeks. If you think you have something better, something that will hold up longer and give a better sound in our particular application (which is subject to more pulling and bending than you'd ever experience on straight guitars, basses, and Chapman sticks) I'm all ears.

[Garry Goodman]

In addressing the concern of "What if I break a string on a gig? I don't have time to let the string sit overnight before pulling it up to pitch" (paraphrasing). It seems to me it would be a small inconvenience to have a regular .011 (GHS, Ernie Ball, or whatever) at the ready to finish out the gig, then change it out the next day. It would certainly be worth that to have a string that would be tonally stable and not break for months.

It sounds like it may be work winding some .011 string samples

[Garry Goodman]

Gary, I'd like to hear one of your strings on a pedal steel. This is, after all, a steel guitar forum, and all these clips of 12 string guitars and bass guitars really don't tell me much. Pedal steel is a unique animal. It's a solid-bodied guitar with only one pickup that's quite close to the bridge. Add to that we use a solid steel bar as a slide, and most of us use metal finger picks, and you can see why it's real easy for a thin string to sound thin and whiney. Right now, most of us use an .011 or .0115 string for the G#, and they'll probably last at least a few weeks. If you think you have something better, something that will hold up longer and give a better sound in our particular application (which is subject to more pulling and bending than you'd ever experience on straight guitars, basses, and Chapman sticks) I'm all ears.

Donny,
When I first read David's post:

Posted: 14 Feb 08 1:21pm Post subject: Has anybody seen these strings?
There's a bass player named Garry Goodman who is making custom strings for extended-range instruments - he is selling .007s that can get up to A4 on a 24" to 30" instrument, and he is going to be making extra big, +0.175" bass strings. I'll bet he could make a third string for you E9th sufferers that wouldn't pop.... his strings cost $5.25 a piece, but hey they don't break?

http://www.octave4plus.com/

It looked to me like the comments like string breaking and thin tone were general comments about octave4plus strings. I now see you were speaking in terms of Steel Guitar...

Now I see that your comments are in the context of Steel Guitar, and here I am trying to have you hear thin strings tuned to high notes on other instruments... So the comment about the .011 popping or going dead was in the context of Steel Guitars.

I was contacted by a Steel player about the 3rd string for E9th lasting through about 60 hours of playing, and so began R&D to improve the string life. As I mentioned before, he got 80 hours but wasn't always able to let the string sit overnight.
Even a 3-4 hour stretch period will increase string life. I have several different versions of any given gauge of wire. For example one .010 is great for the 26" scale, and another .010 for the 36" scale and so forth.So choosing the right string for this application is the first step.

The best I can offer at this point is to make some samples for anyone who posted here prior to this post to test and see if these string applied to Steel Guitar will help in any way.

[Garry Goodman]

Thanks to everyone for the opportunity to express my views.