The Confusion Of Tuning a non-pedal Steel Guitar

[Les Anderson]

Now for the rest of you guys; you are a riot! Already we have five different tunings.

So far Rick has the instructional material to back his tuning; however, is there any other instructional material out there that also uses Rick's tunings?

I suppose, if I really do think about it, my idea would be to start a category on the forum specifically dedicated for beginner, non-pedal steel players who are not plagued by a dozen or more different tunings. Something that will give them a clear and non-obstructed road for their first six months to a year in their learning curve. I feel that after they get all the basics of one tuning down pat and being able to chord along and play a few tunes with a standard tuning, switching to other tuning variations would be an easy task for most.

[b0b]

I like to use A C# E F# A C# (lo to hi) for A6 so it has the same intervals as C E G A C E (lo to hi) C6.

That's a pretty low tuning for lap steel, though. I don't see the advantage. The main point of the A6th is to have the 5th of the chord on top.

[Les Anderson]

b0b, have you ever played along with a vibe (vibeaphone). I had the pleasure of doing it last night. The steel guitar and the vibes sound absolutely beautiful together with their harmony because of the harmonics riffs and the steel guitar's intonation and tone.

I am going to have to learn how to do MP3s.

[Rick Alexander]

So far Rick has the instructional material to back his tuning; however, is there any other instructional material out there that also uses Rick's tunings?

Herb Remington also has a 2 video set of A6 instructional material that is a valuable resource.
http://remingtonsteelguitars.com/video.html
It's called "Non Pedal Steel Guitar" and is now available in DVD. The first one teaches basics and the second one teaches tips tricks and secrets of several of his signature tunes. Tab is included.
There is stuff in these 2 DVDs you won't find anywhere else.
Herb has been teaching for over 50 years, and he has a way of making casual remarks that start you thinking and open doors.
In other words he teaches you to teach yourself.
I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned and continue to learn from my association with him.

With The Steel Guitar Basics DVD, Pieces Of Steel and TUFF FUN TAB comes this guarantee: "If you don't love it, you get your money back".
No one has ever asked for a refund.

Also, don't forget that high C6 tuning (hi2lo - G E C A G E C A) is relatively the same as A6 (just moved up 1 1/2 steps), so all the cool stuff in Cindy Cashdollar's Western Swing DVDs can be easily adapted and applied to A6.

So there really is a lot of material available for A6 - enough to enable a beginner to become a viable player.


b0b, your C6 - A6 explanation really clarifies the relationship between the 2 tunings.
That should clear up any confusion.
Because really, there's nothing to be confused about - it all makes perfect sense once you get the picture.

The main point of the A6th is to have the 5th of the chord on top.

Exactly. The combinations, slants and pulls this affords open up a plethora of possibilities.

[Les Anderson]

Rick, what gauge of strings are you using with your A6 tuning?

Also, are you using A6 on the 22 1/2 neck or the 24 1/4" neck. The string gauges are usually not the same for both necks.


I got my friend started with a gauge that Cindy Cashdollar's tuning calls for. I use the same gauges of course because I started learning with Cindy's western swing course.

[Rick Alexander]

Les, these are the gauges I use for A6 tuning:
[tab]E .015
C# .018
A .022
F# .026
E .030
C# .034
A .042
F# .056[/tab]
Lately I've been tuning the bottom string to G, which makes it an A13.
My main guitars (The Steelmaster T-8, the Gibson Console Grande T-8 and the 57 Stringmaster T-8) are 22 1/2" scale.
The Stringmaster Quad is 26" scale and I use slightly lighter gauge strings for it.

[Andy Sandoval]

that's a pretty low tuning for lap steel, though. I don't see the advantage. The main point of the A6th is to have the 5th of the chord on top.

Bob, I hear what your sayin. Yep, it's definitely lower than C6 but the main advantage for me was havin the 3rd on top like C6 so I could play the same strings with the A6 tuning.

If you number the notes of the scale 1 through 7, these are how the two tunings compare: [tab] C6 (in C) A6 (in A)
E = 3 E = 5
C = 1 C# = 3
A = 6 A = 1
G = 5 F# = 6
E = 3 E = 5
C = 1 C# = 3
A = 6 A = 1
F = 4 F# = 6 [/tab] See how the numbers for the first 6 strings of C6th are the same as the numbers for string 2 through 7 of the A6th? If you can play C6th, you can play A6th - just move down a string.

Moving down a string to play the same pattern made less sense to me.

[Ray Langley]

Yes, the low A6 makes more sense to me too for someone who has studied (or is about to study) C6. I also like the idea for an overall lower tone. Thank goodness we have a thousand tunings to choose from. That last line was a joke.

The higher A6 tuning makes a lot of sense if you are planning to move up to 8 strings down the line. But, it's all good...... Whichever one we choose, we still have to come to grips with grips (and slants).

Like many others, I was hoping this whole process of moving from slide to steel would be much easier than it is turning out to be. It looks so easy when watching someone who knows how to play.

As for standard tuning, even for standard guitar, there ain't no such thing anymore. I have about 20 books, cds, and dvds that have NOTHING at all to do with "standard" tuning. Some of the new touchstyle instruments are tuned in all fourths or fifths or a combination of the two.

[b0b]

b0b, have you ever played along with a vibe (vibraphone). I had the pleasure of doing it last night. The steel guitar and the vibes sound absolutely beautiful together with their harmony because of the harmonics riffs and the steel guitar's intonation and tone.

I am going to have to learn how to do MP3s.

It's hard for me to play both instruments at once, Les. Seriously, I'm the only vibraphone player around here that I know of, and I'm a rank amateur. L.T. Zinn has vibes on some of his CDs. I agree that it's a beautiful sounding combination.

[Paul DiMaggio]

Oh dear!! This can't be good! It is starting to make sense to me!
b0b,your chart cleared up some of my confusion,especially the importance of knowing the intervals.Is it OK to copy that chart?
I intend to stay with C6 till I'm more comfortable with it.Having said that,I did take a baby step towards the edge of the tuning abyss early this morning by tuning my low C to C#.Nice fat 7th chords on the bottom.
Thanks to everyone for your input.

[Ray Shakeshaft]

Why not tune C6 eight string as ((Note - Intervals)

G - 5
E - 3
C - 1
A - 6
G - 5
E - 3
C - 1
A - 6

Which are exactly the same intervals as the A6 tuning that has been suggested, indeed the A6 tuning is simply a C6 at the ninth fret. The advantages of adding a top and bottom string to the common six string ECAGEC means that the student who started with a six string already has a flying start.

I agree with previous posters that there does need to be some discussion on beginners' problems because unlike many other instruments there is a shortage of free tuition on the net.

[Edward Meisse]

Cidny Cashdollar, among others, does tune her C6 that way. Her instructional videos are in that tuning. George Piburn (Georgeboards) also offers instructional material in this tuning. When you add Herb Remington's A6 instuctions to the mix, there seems to be quite a bit of material using this tuning. In the old days these intervals were known as, "Orchestra Tuning," no matter what key they were in. When you add the instructional material available for 6 string C6 which uses the middle 6 intervals of this tuning, there certainly cannot be said to be any shortage.

As for the Don Helms E6 that has been mentioned, it is in fact just the low C6 with the, "Fat F Major 7 chord on the bottom." But played up in the key of E instead of down in C. I believe that this E6 is Ms. Cashdollar's 2nd tuning. And again, I think she has a lot of company. In this case it is the top 6 strings that the 6 string C6 literature refers to. There is really NOT as much confusion and difference as is being made.

I was probably wrong to suggest the McAullife tuning as a basic tuning. It definitely falls under personalized tunings. It's not nearly as common as either Orchestra tuning, Helms tuning or the 6 string C6.

I think what we are doing her is discussing a confusion that exists in our minds but not necessarily in practice. But I guess that's what discussions are for. I know I've learned something.

[Ron Whitfield]

I agree, there is a shortage of free tuition on the net.

With all the info and freebie contributers on this forum alone, there is probably no serious need to buy any learning material or even find a teacher, at least for those in the beginning and intermediate stages. The main thing is to get the most bottom line/first day fundamentals down properly. Then start soaking up everything else.

Here's my take on explaning the basics - www.hwnsge.5u.com - See pg. 4, Tutorials.

[AJ Azure]

I agree, there is a shortage of free tuition on the net.

With all the info and freebie contributers on this forum alone, there is probably no serious need to buy any learning material or even find a teacher, at least for those in the beginning and intermediate stages. The main thing is to get the most bottom line/first day fundamentals down properly. Then start soaking up everything else.

Here's my take on explaning the basics - www.hwnsge.5u.com - See pg. 4, Tutorials.

eer no that's not true at all. Starting on your own is possible but. an uphill battle. Whereas having a teacher from day one guide you is irreplaceable. An online forum is in no way ever going to be a substitute for one on one lessons. A forum can answer some basic questions but, not look at your hands when you play, analyze your pitch or rhythma ability, etc.

Not to mention what you get online as 'expert info' is often flawed. DIY with help of the internet is potentially as flawed as learning to fly a plane with instructions off the back of a cereal box.

[Les Anderson]

DIY with help of the internet is potentially as flawed as learning to fly a plane with instructions off the back of a cereal box.

Hey, I just earned my Microsoft Flight Sim. license, are you trying to tell me that I wouldn't be safe to fly with?

************************************

I agree, technically speaking, that all these personal tuning variations are not that far off from each other; however, to a raw beginner, they are major variations. I know that when the beginner has a year or so under his/her belt of playing their steel, these personal variations will suddenly seem simple and an easy move and do have their place in different genres of music.

I got this E-mail last night about 8:30P;

Les, thank you tons for starting this thread. Last summer I posted a question about tuning my new eight string steel and ended up with no less than eleven different tunings. It seems that most of these guys in the forum have years under their belt of playing steel guitar and don't realize, or even consider, that for a beginner not having -one- common or standard starting point to tune to, without the personal variations, it is very discouraging. I gave up on asking for anything on this forum when it comes to tuning anything. I ended up buying Cindy Cashdollar's DVD's and will use her C6th tuning for at least a year and learn her techniques.

Thanks again Les and don't let this one stop until someone comes up with a tuning that everyone agrees is a good starting point for us newbies. It is important.

Frank

This mail sort of speaks about a beginners frustration with finding a common tuning.

[Rick Alexander]

don't let this one stop until someone comes up with a tuning that everyone agrees is a good starting point for us newbies.

That will never happen.

[Les Anderson]

I sort of realize that. Just the same, there should be some sort of base tuning that can get the beginner going instead of trying to work through the maze of personal tunings.

I am getting almost as many E-mails in regards to this topic as their are posts in this thread. Lot's of suggested tunings for both 6 & 8 string steels, so the problem still goes on. That tells me that one has to make the effort try something.

By the way Rick, I think I am going to give your tuning a shot, along with the string gauges you use.

As for my friend who has his shiny new Fender all set up, I am going to let him make his own choices to what tuning he wants to go with at this stage of the game. He feels he wants to give Cindy's C6th a go to get him started. He has been reading this thread as well and is still making up his mind as to whether he should join the forum at this point in time.

[AJ Azure]

DIY with help of the internet is potentially as flawed as learning to fly a plane with instructions off the back of a cereal box.

Hey, I just earned my Microsoft Flight Sim. license, are you trying to tell me that I wouldn't be safe to fly with?

************************************

I agree, technically speaking, that all these personal tuning variations are not that far off from each other; however, to a raw beginner, they are major variations. I know that when the beginner has a year or so under his/her belt of playing their steel, these personal variations will suddenly seem simple and an easy move and do have their place in different genres of music.

I got this E-mail last night about 8:30P;

Les, thank you tons for starting this thread. Last summer I posted a question about tuning my new eight string steel and ended up with no less than eleven different tunings. It seems that most of these guys in the forum have years under their belt of playing steel guitar and don't realize, or even consider, that for a beginner not having -one- common or standard starting point to tune to, without the personal variations, it is very discouraging. I gave up on asking for anything on this forum when it comes to tuning anything. I ended up buying Cindy Cashdollar's DVD's and will use her C6th tuning for at least a year and learn her techniques.

Thanks again Les and don't let this one stop until someone comes up with a tuning that everyone agrees is a good starting point for us newbies. It is important.

Frank

This mail sort of speaks about a beginners frustration with finding a common tuning.

Les just because, someone has years of experience playing that doesn't mean they are good teachers. A good teacher looks at what is best for the student not what works best for themselves. A player who can tezch their instrument is not necessarily the best teacher either. General music ability and understanding of education is the better combo WITH good instrument knowledge. asking the players with years of experience yields such confusing results for a beginner because, they receive answers from players based on player preferences not teachers with teaching as the first priority.

As for your flight sim certification..do i get frequent die-er miles if i fly with you? lol

[Ron Whitfield]

eer no that's not true at all. Starting on your own is possible but. an uphill battle. Whereas having a teacher from day one guide you is irreplaceable. An online forum is in no way ever going to be a substitute for one on one lessons. A forum can answer some basic questions but, not look at your hands when you play, analyze your pitch or rhythma ability, etc.
Not to mention what you get online as 'expert info' is often flawed. DIY with help of the internet is potentially as flawed as learning to fly a plane with instructions off the back of a cereal box.[/quote]

That's assuming the chosen teacher has it together to teach the best way's possible to the highest extent of the student's benefit. I can assure you that not all teachers are going to do it as well as others, and some are flat out bad. On-line gives the student multiple options/opportunities towards deciding their preferred avenues and corrections to bad info/habits. That said, having a top-notch teacher at your side is certainly the most direct and efficient route, but they are rare and not always available. I had the best and wouldn't trade it for the world, but I was lucky. Those that aren't as fortunate can still get going fast, correctly, and efficiantly, thanx to the net.

[AJ Azure]

eer no that's not true at all. Starting on your own is possible but. an uphill battle. Whereas having a teacher from day one guide you is irreplaceable. An online forum is in no way ever going to be a substitute for one on one lessons. A forum can answer some basic questions but, not look at your hands when you play, analyze your pitch or rhythma ability, etc.
Not to mention what you get online as 'expert info' is often flawed. DIY with help of the internet is potentially as flawed as learning to fly a plane with instructions off the back of a cereal box.

That's assuming the chosen teacher has it together to teach the best way's possible to the highest extent of the student's benefit. I can assure you that not all teachers are going to do it as well as others, and some are flat out bad. On-line gives the student multiple options/opportunities towards deciding their preferred avenues and corrections to bad info/habits. That said, having a top-notch teacher at your side is certainly the most direct and efficient route, but they are rare and not always available. I had the best and wouldn't trade it for the world, but I was lucky. Those that aren't as fortunate can still get going fast, correctly, and efficiantly, thanx to the net.[/quote]\


big prbloem. how does a beginner know who a good teacher is? "I don't want to learn how to read music" says the beginner, so a teacher who caters to that desire, is that a good teacher or is that a bad teacher? Catering to the beginner's narrow scope may seem like a gosd teacher to the beginner but, is it what's best for them??

That's the issue with online you really don't see anyone's REAL teaching ability and a beginner has no idea how to sift through all the info online. fast, correctly, and efficiently, thanks to the net is a VERY questionable statement.

[Les Anderson]

As for your flight sim certification..do i get frequent die-er miles if i fly with you? lol

UUhhh, you may not get frequent flier points but I can assure you that you won't be all that badly banged up when I land us on the face of a mountain cliff.

***

As for the teaching bit; I agree with you 100% AJ. The major problem we are facing is the availability of steel guitar teachers outside of a few major areas of our countries. This is precisely why I feel there is a desperate need for the experts in this forum to get together and come up with a standard for the steel guitar so that the raw beginners can have a base to work from or build on.

The way it stands now, personal tunings are connected with the personal teaching scenario. If you take your acoustic guitar to a guitar teacher for six months; then, have a tiff with that teacher, you can still take the basic knowledge of the basic open E tuning that the acoustic guitar is tuned to and continue on with a new teacher. This is not so with a steel guitar. (I know the transition from A6th to C6th is not a big deal for an experienced steeler; however, to a raw beginner, it's like starting over again)

Rick Alexandra says it won't happen, well my question has to be, "why not"?

A serious or dedicated steel guitar teacher could work with a prospective student on "Sightspeed" or "Skype". But, once again, the student is pretty much stuck with that one teacher because of the personal tuning choices.

[Ray Shakeshaft]

There is too much emphasis on teaching per se and too little on how people learn. Until that is understood then I cannot see much progress being made.

The role of a teacher is helping someone to learn and since we all learn in different ways and at different speeds etc. plus we all have different starting points, the GOOD live teacher can adapt their teaching methods to the needs of the student. The book/DVD offers ONE method which may or may not suit the student. The way around this with most instruments is to have lots of teaching material available so that the student can choose which suits them if they do not have access to a live teacher.

We are never going to standardise a tuning for the beginner (read this thread for proof of that) but it seems that the most popular is likely to be C6 six string. It might be a good starting point to find what students want to learn and I am pretty sure it is not a couple of tunes off a DVD. They want to have the basic skill to be able to play whatever they want in a fairly simple fashion at the start, they want to sit in with other musicians (I do not mean semi-pro jam sessions but perhaps other members of the family and friends). They want to know how to find chords on the neck so that they can work on some of the thousands of song/chord sheets that are on the net. There may be a book/DVD around that does this but I have not come across it.

My background is in adult education and it was my experience that with adults they need to be able to see some prgress fairly early on or they lose their self confidence and believe that it is beyond them. Get them playing three chorders etc. and they will soon want to learn the finer points and study a bit of theory.

[Ron Whitfield]

What you post sounds like a typical rookie hazard of jumping straight into the fire without doing one's homework enuf to know. Just because they get a physical teacher doesn't mean 'problem solved'. There are lot's of 'bad' teachers.
When I wanted to learn fretless bass, prior to home-based computers, I sought out as much info as was available, chased down the top local bassists, and got a clearer vision of what I wanted and what was available long before I bought my first bass.

When it came to steel, I was lucky in that I knew who I ultimately wanted as a teacher, he was able/willing/nearby, and that dream came true.
That ended when I couldn't comprehend theory, and my teacher was dead set on his students getting it asap. Had I been allowed to slide past that I would be much better off today, even tho I'll never know theory. But I certainly don't call him a bad teacher. He was the top pro and wanted his students to have more opportunities.
Many of the greats had no idea on theory. Joaquin Murphey, for one. So it's not essential to acheiving great success. Nor is learning all the bad habits a insurmountable wall against success.

We are in the computer age, and using it can lessen the strain of learning quick and in a most highly proffessional way. How many times do we hear on this/any forum that there are no teachers in a certain area? I've had fine success helping beginners via the net, never once meeting them during the process. Some now play better than me!

That's my take. We can agree to disagree if you don't buy into it.

[Dom Franco]

I have been teaching music since 1970...(38 years)
I have had dozens of students in guitar classes at the YMCA, and taught bass, piano, drums and of course steel guitar private lessons one on one, or in small groups.

I have found there are only two types of students...
One's who practice, and ones who don't.

No matter how old or young the student, If they are self-motivated, they learn very fast. Often all I have to do is keep challenging them with some new material, a few scales and licks and they get it.
These students are a joy to teach, and pretty soon I have to let them go, because they can learn everyting else on their own.

The other type of student, for one reason or another, does not practice. (kids with parents forcing lessons upon them, working adults, who want to learn, but are too busy, raising kids, earning a living etc)
These people show up without a clue, barely remember what I showed them last week, and make excuses why they couldn't practice the lesson. They will not progress, and after a while, I refuse to keep taking their money for this wasted time.

The first type of student, is the one who will greatly benefit from this forum and online lessons. They are self driven to excel, and will latch on to each bit of information and work on it until they can play it.

JMO
Dom

[Del Bonn]

OK, so now let's have a poll of first second and third choices of tunings on an 8-string lap steel.
I'll go with A6 first, C6 second, and an E13 as a third.

I find that the chordal tunings work best for me on Hawaiian, gospel, and country music. BUT for classical,jazz, and "big band era," the single-note tunigs are much more convenient.

As for instruction material, I see no advantage to using those number tabs for a lap steel. Lead notes with chord notations is still the best and shortest way to learn how to play music.

I prefer that my youngest pupils be at least age 8...
they can handle it, and learn at a surprising pace.
Growing up in this age of multi-tasking...guitar is duable.[/u]