The Confusion Of Tuning a non-pedal Steel Guitar

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 29 Dec 2008 5:49 am

A fairly new guitar enthusiast friend of mine, (mostly bass) found a shiny, rebuilt Fender D8 under their tree on Christmas morning and it turned his musical world into confusion and exasperation. His first question to me was, “what’s the tuning for this thing?” My response was “It’s normally a variation of C6th and another variation of E13th on the second neck.

“A variation of C6th and E13th?” came his confused reply. “Let’s start with a standard tuning first.”

I had no answer for him.

After a half hour on the phone with him and scouring through this forum, we both came to the conclusion that there is no standard tuning for a non-pedal steel guitar. A pedal steel has a set, E9th and C6th as its standard tuning; however, for the non-pedalers, it’s a myriad of variations.

Having some free time on Boxing Day, I spent two hours on this forum searching through thousands of posts for all the suggested tuning for 6 & 8 string steels. In all, I found 38 different tunings for 6 and 8 string steel guitars.

The more or less most commonly accepted tuning of C6th, I found 17, C6th variations but no set, standard C6th tuning. (The string gauges are another matter again.)

So, it was off to the archives to find tabs for 6 & 8 string steel guitars songs: again, a multitude of C6th tunings and/or the myriad of other tunings.

We in the world of steel guitar howl that “the steel guitar is dying in the eyes of new comers”…………..: “The steel guitar is no longer accepted”………….: “The young people are rejecting it”………. Is there any wonder why this is so? Ask five people how to tune their steel guitar and out comes five different answers.

How many other musical instruments have as many different tunings as the non-pedal steel guitar? When you pick up a music sheet for most other instruments they are scaled to a standard tuning. The tab sheets we buy for the non-pedal steel guitar have more tuning variations than we can shake a stick at.

In all, why can’t there be or, why can’t we create a standard tuning for the non-pedal steel guitar?

Mike Harris · Post by **Mike Harris** » 29 Dec 2008 7:56 am

You'll sooner get everyone to agree on a national beer or an international language--remember Esperanto?

I think more than with "fingered" or "Spanish" guitar there's a need to experiment with tunings to accommodate musical styles and individual tastes. That said, as a newbie to lap steel, I was under the impression that CEGACE (lo to hi) was the standard tuning except for blues/rock guitar crossovers who want something simpler to start with. It's what I started with (though at present I'm going with EGACEG).

Rocky Hill · Post by **Rocky Hill** » 29 Dec 2008 8:09 am

Mike Harris wrote:You'll sooner get everyone to agree on a national beer or an international language--remember Esperanto?

I think more than with "fingered" or "Spanish" guitar there's a need to experiment with tunings to accommodate musical styles and individual tastes. That said, as a newbie to lap steel, I was under the impression that CEGACE (lo to hi) was the standard tuning except for blues/rock guitar crossovers who want something simpler to start with. It's what I started with (though at present I'm going with EGACEG).

I use ACEGACEG because the instructional material for 8 string I had was in that tuning (Cindy Cashdollar) but I think what you show is probably the most accepted tunings for a 6 string. The Cindy Cashdollar DVD said if you have a 6 string to eleminate the bottom two strings and use what you posted,EGACEG.

Rocky

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 29 Dec 2008 10:15 am

Part of the problem here is that different tunings go for different musical styles. The first question I always ask someone who wants to know how to tune his guitar is, "What do you want to sound like?" A 6 string tuned to open E or G might be entirely appropriate to his needs. But your answer to your friend was entirely appropriate for anyone who would play a D8. The D8 presupposes in my mind a person with a sophisticated harmonic pallet who will want a wide range of possibilities. The some form of C6 and some form of E13 was exactly right. And those are for all intents and purposes correct. For beginners the thing to do is to use the tunings for which the most instructional material is available. Those would be the C6 tuning that used to be called, "Orchestra tuning." Since it is the same as the 8 string A6 tuning you can use it to play instructional material in that tuning as well. But it will sound in a different key. The intervals from bottom to top are 6-1-3-5-6-1-3-5. And there is alot of instructional material as well for 6 string C6 that utilizes the middle 6 strings of this tuning. I have found quite a bit of instructional material lately for the McAulliffe E13. And this would be the second standard tuning. From bottom to top it is 3-5-7-2-3-5-6-1. For beginners I think it is generally best to avoid all the specialized personal tunings that individuals have developed to suit their own personal proclivities. And while Leavitt tuning is currently making great strides, I would leave it

for later.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 29 Dec 2008 1:24 pm

I always thought that these were the "standard" tunings for a D-8:
[tab] E13th C6th
1. G# E
2. E C
3. C# A
4. B G
5. G# E
6. E C
7. D A
8. B F [/tab]
Knowledgeable people vary them quite a bit, but this is the standard starting point in my opinion. Most of the course material is for these two tunings, and it's easy to make the switch to pedal steel if you know these tunings.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 29 Dec 2008 1:29 pm

I realize and appreciate the many styles of music tend to push for modified or varied tunings if not for tone but for blending and sound.

The point is, I think we need to establish a standard tuning for the initial learning curve so the new player can grasp the feel and ear for his/her steel guitar. From there, the player can begin to modify the tuning from the standard tuning to the particular genre of music he or she will like to play.

b0b, you posted at almost the same time I did.

I use your tuning for the most part. However, Cindy Cashdollar uses a different C6 and E13.

C6TH

G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A

Cindy's E13th is also different than yours and Herb Remington's.

Herb Remington's supposed standard tuning is as follows.

[tab]C6 High C6 Low (or A6)
------- --------------
G .011 E .014 E
E .014 C .017 C#
C .018 A .022w A
A .022w G .024 F#
G .024 E .030 E
E .030 C .034 C#
C .036 A .042 A
A .042 G .046 F# [/tab]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 29 Dec 2008 1:45 pm

Herb's low C6th is also the right gauges for A6th (retune 4 strings) and it's basically what I posted above. The high E13th is what Don Helms and Little Roy Wiggins played. It's arguably the most popular sound of the decade before pedals became the norm.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 29 Dec 2008 2:42 pm

I use Don Helms tuning on the second neck of my steel and switch between Herb's and Cindy's C6th on the first neck. Those three tunings cover almost every thing I want to play. However, I don't think I would be apt to call them standard D8 tunings as far as what is being posted by the other steelers in the forum.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 29 Dec 2008 9:39 pm

Les; "I feel your pain" or in this case your buddies pain. And I agree that Tuning choices, string gauge delema, lack of standard notation and instruction material are all all factors that overwhelm newcomers.

Every student I have ever had, goes through this initial frustration. Sometimes after a lesson or two, they want to change tunings, so I gladly accomodate them.

But this has been the case for many years, even decades now, and C6 seems to be the winner of the popularity contest, but by no means is it the only accepted standard tuning.

I am glad for the freedom of choice in this matter, and it also helps to separate the "men from the boys" so to speak. If you can get through the tuning maze, then you are likely dedicated enough to conquer the basics of the instrument.

BTW, it's old school A6th for me for the better part of 35 years, with no regrets.

Dom

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 29 Dec 2008 11:33 pm

Dom, I think I can safely say that I have overcome the myriad of C6th and other tunings. As noted above, I have pretty much found my niche for where I want my tuning to be.

When I first started out, I went through the discouraging maze of instructional material that was/is available for non-pedal steels and all the various new tunings I had to work through. Eventually, and through frustration, I grabbed everything I could find that was close to Cindy Cashdollar's tuning and went with it. Maybe my way was old school but it got me on the write track to learning. (of course it also helped to have more than 50 years of playing music in my background.

I was just wondering why there can't be a standard tuning for a lap or D8 steel that has a considerable amount of learning material to go along with the tuning for the newer student. Once they get the basics mastered, they can then venture off into whatever music genre they choose, and of course the various tunings to suite that genre.

There are thousands of courses and materials available for any other instruments because they are all written for a standard tuning: the acoustic guitar for instance.

This forum could be, -or should be-, the starting gate to set this sort of thing in motion. Guys like "b0b", "Ray Montee", "Rick Alexandra", "Doug Beaumier" and "Basilh" would be an ideal team to set up such a standard tuning and encourage new materials and tabs to be written that tuning so the beginner can have a much broader choice of learning material to work with.

Just my thoughts of course.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 30 Dec 2008 3:07 am

Guys like "b0b", "Ray Montee", "Rick Alexandra", "Doug Beaumier" and "Basilh" would be an ideal team.....

Yes but would it be possible to get them all to endorse one standard tuning?
Dom

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 30 Dec 2008 6:21 am

You mentioned “A pedal steel has a set, E9th and C6th as its standard tuning; however, for the non-pedalers, it’s a myriad of variations”. The pedal steel assumes a number of different tunings when you engage the pedals. Pedals A and B together make an A6. Lowering strings 4 and 8 make a B6. The list goes on and on. The pedal steel becomes versatile in that it re-tunes itself to a different chord whenever any pedal or combination of pedals are engaged.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 30 Dec 2008 10:36 am

Guys like "b0b", "Ray Montee", "Rick Alexander", "Doug Beaumier" and "Basilh" would be an ideal team to set up such a standard tuning

We could be called the Steel Guit-stapo: "Ve haf vays to make you tune!"

Seriously though - for a D-8, you could start off with A6 (or low C6) and high E13.
Those are the tunings that have the most available material.
As b0b mentioned, the same string gauges can be used for A6 and C6.
This video deals with retuning from A6 to C6.
This page lists many tunings, and their relativity, and recommended gauges.
All part of the wonderful diversity of SWP . .

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Dec 2008 10:49 am

Low C6th (E on top) is pretty standard and, as Rick says, it's easily retuned to A6th. Same gauges, and half of the notes are the same.

I usually tune the 8th string of Low C6th to F because I also play pedal steel. Is that common, or is G more common for the 8th string? To be honest, I don't use that string very much.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 30 Dec 2008 11:16 am

b0b, I don't use C6 very much - but I get the impression that the low F is fairly common.
It has that big Maj7 chord from the bottom.

I use the high E13 more and more, sometimes retuning the low B to A (and the D to C#) - which is relatively the same as the C6 with low F.

Due to the higher register of the E13 and E6 tuning(s), chords and grips on the lower strings blend very well with those on the higher strings - dramatically adding to the harmonic and chordal possibilities.
At least to my ear . .

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 30 Dec 2008 2:03 pm

So herein lays the problem. The confusion of which tuning to use or which one is best. For those steelers who have been playing the instrument for five, ten + years, it's a blink of an eye thing to change tunings back and forth.

Speaking for myself when I first started and, taking from some of the e-mails I have been receiving about this thread; to a green horn beginner, retuning is like starting to learn all over again.

I will quote from an E-mail I received this morning.
Quote........all I want for the first four to six months is one neck with one tuning so I can learn the basics of two or three songs: nothing more. Ask if these guys in here can do that ........?//quote.

When I started four years ago, the above was exactly what I wanted. Further more, if one does not understand music theory all that well, written instructional material to a given tuning is paramount for that person.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 30 Dec 2008 2:18 pm

Larry Phleger wrote:You mentioned “A pedal steel has a set, E9th and C6th as its standard tuning; however, for the non-pedalers, it’s a myriad of variations”. The pedal steel assumes a number of different tunings when you engage the pedals. Pedals A and B together make an A6. Lowering strings 4 and 8 make a B6. The list goes on and on. The pedal steel becomes versatile in that it re-tunes itself to a different chord whenever any pedal or combination of pedals are engaged.

Larry, I understand that. The pedal steel is more or less structured to use the full chromatic scale; hence, the pedals. A non-pedal, steel guitar is not from the same planet. That's where learning bar slants is so vital. As soon as the tuning is changed, for the most part, so is the process of slanting the bar to pick up the proper notes.

Learning to spell is even harder than learning to play the steel guitar.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 30 Dec 2008 2:32 pm

Les, it doesn't need to be confusing at all.
In fact, it's fun at every skill level!
Tell them to start with this:
A6 tuning - hi2lo E C# A F# E C# A F#

Steel Guitar Basics
The Steel Guitar Basics DVD is aimed at beginners.
It explains and demonstrates the basic techniques and rudiments of A6 Non Pedal Steel Guitar in a way that anyone can understand.

Pieces Of Steel
Pieces Of Steel is a 12 song 4 DVD, 1 CD, chord chart booklet course that takes what you've learned from the Steel Guitar Basics DVD and shows step by step how to use it - to perform songs with a backup band.

TUFF FUN TAB
TUFF FUN TAB is Herb Remington's hand-written tab for 12 songs with a CD that has 2 versions of each song - one with Steel Guitar and one without.

These 3 tutorials have helped several hundred beginners become Steel Guitar Players.

Dean Gray · Post by **Dean Gray** » 30 Dec 2008 2:39 pm

I second Rick's Steel Guitar Basics DVD, then Pieces of Steel, and then a little later on, the Tuff Fun Tab book. Makes the learning curve a lot easier. Plus, you can get them right here on the forum!

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 30 Dec 2008 3:35 pm

Thanks Dean - much appreciated mate!

Les, on my eBay feedback page are about 200 testimonials for these materials, and that's not counting the units b0b has sold on the forum, or the units I've sold from my website, or the units that I've sold at the Steel Guitar Conventions in Dallas and St Louis etc. Many folks have told me that they were unable to get started playing Steel until they began working with these tutorials.
The main reason for this is that Steel Guitar Basics does not assume the student knows anything about Steel Guitar or about music theory - it starts from scratch, and the other two continue from there.

Also - Herb Remington has FUN TAB 1 and FUN TAB 2, two 20 song tab books of popular and traditional songs.

A6 is an excellent tuning to start with, it's symmetrical and easy for a beginner to conceptualize.
The top 3 strings form a major chord, and strings 2,3 & 4 form a minor chord etc.
It is also a tuning that will take you a long way - Herb Remington does quite well with it, and he has certainly never stopped growing musically!

I'm not saying that other tunings are bad, or that other learning methods are more confusing and difficult.
I'm just saying that A6 is a great tuning and these tutorials do enable beginners to understand and play Steel Guitar in a very short time - and most importantly to have FUN doing it.

I am now finished blowing my own horn, and I think I'll go in the studio and play some Steel.

Paul DiMaggio · Post by **Paul DiMaggio** » 30 Dec 2008 5:02 pm

I'm a newbie to steel guitar and this forum and confused is putting it mildly!
First off though, I would like to thank Dom Franco and John Burton for their help in getting my Morrell 6 string up and working properly.
I have it tuned to C6 currently,the most common C6.
I started reading this thread and it would seem that A6 is easier to learn on. I looked on both Brad's and Scotty's tunings lists and found no mention of A6 under 6 string tunings.Does that mean you can't tune a 6 string to A6?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Dec 2008 7:11 pm

Paul DiMaggio wrote:I looked on both Brad's and Scotty's tunings lists and found no mention of A6 under 6 string tunings.Does that mean you can't tune a 6 string to A6?

Sure you can. Raise the C's to C# and lower the G to F#: [tab] C6 A6
-- --
E E
C C#
A A
G F#
E E
C C# [/tab]
It's just not as common. Now here's the thing. When you're first learning to play, you really need to have the low root as a reference point. It's hard to visualize chords and scales without it. The 6-string A6th doesn't have that - the A would be on the 7th string.

If you learn 6 string C6th first, it's very easy to to transition to an 8 string C6th, and then to retune it for A6th tunes. The intervals of the first 6 strings of C6th are the same as the middle 6 strings of A6th.

If you number the notes of the scale 1 through 7, these are how the two tunings compare: [tab] C6 (in C) A6 (in A)
E = 3 E = 5
C = 1 C# = 3
A = 6 A = 1
G = 5 F# = 6
E = 3 E = 5
C = 1 C# = 3
A = 6 A = 1
F = 4 F# = 6 [/tab] See how the numbers for the first 6 strings of C6th are the same as the numbers for string 2 through 7 of the A6th? If you can play C6th, you can play A6th - just move down a string.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 30 Dec 2008 7:18 pm

Does that mean you can't tune a 6 string to A6?

Not at all.
A6 for 6 string - hi2lo E C# A F# E C#

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 30 Dec 2008 7:40 pm

I like to use A C# E F# A C# (lo to hi) for A6 so it has the same intervals as C E G A C E (lo to hi) C6.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 30 Dec 2008 9:21 pm

"Paul DiMaggio"; there is, or used to be, a fellow in Fort Nelson by the name of Cliff Ashdown who plays lap steel and dobro. He used to teach guitar at the high school in the evenings. He also used to live in the West Coast condos but may have moved out towards the golf course. Check your phone book to see if he still lives in Fort Nelson.

There is another fellow in Fort Nelson who used to own the music store. His name is Rick Laselle. He plays a Frypan 6 string steel. I played a lot of music with these guys before we moved south.

I hope this helps.