What is this and will it work?

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 19 Dec 2008 4:16 pm

A student at Berklee asked for lessons, I said what do you have for a steel? He pointed me to this...
Ebay page
Before I tell him he bought a useless axe, maybe someone can tell me it will actually play...or not.

Thanks

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Dec 2008 4:37 pm

There's useless and there's useless -- depends on the objectives. It's an 8-string. Lots of great music was played on 8 string guitars, just not much in the past 40 years. Jimmy Day recorded some of his best instrumental stuff (Steel & Strings comes to mind) on an 8-string, so an 8-string E9 tuning with no chromatic strings CAN make some good music. If emulating country music recorded since the industry standard became a 10 string is an objective, I'd advise him to buy a 10 string.

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 19 Dec 2008 4:42 pm

Would the first 3 pedals do regular E9 stuff and the 4th drop the E's? Can you tell if this set up is just for raises and not lowers?
If just raises, what would the standard set up be?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Dec 2008 7:40 pm

Well, there are only 4 bellcranks and 4 pull rods. A+B+C+Eb lever would require 8, so I'd say no. It is clearly a student model guitar. They don't show enough of it to know for sure but I suspect each string may be raised or lowered but not both. There is no standard setup and, from the pictures, no way to determine how it's currently set up.

Once again, I'd advise against it. If he can afford Berklee he can afford a Carter Starter which would be light years ahead of this one.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 19 Dec 2008 7:53 pm

I think useless is a good term in this case !

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 20 Dec 2008 9:54 am

Thanks guys, I figured it would be pretty much useless. This guy's a Cello major so he apparently had no idea what he was looking for. I'll write back and give him the bad news.

Thanks for your input.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Dec 2008 10:54 am

Yeah, with only 4 pulls, it could be discouraging (especially once he sees your guitar). If it were mine, I'd rig it up as a 2-pedal guitar with a straight "D" or "E" tuning (with chromatics).

You could play lotsa simple Bud Isaacs stuff, though!

Joshua Grange · Post by **Joshua Grange** » 20 Dec 2008 3:11 pm

Mike,
Did the student say specifically pedal steel? That would be difficult on that axe.
But it doesn't mean that it's useless.
That thing could be really useful in a lap steel context, using the pulls for some 3rd to 4th or 6th to b7th type action in a 6th tuning.
And if the student were more into jazz, I'll bet you could figure out how to make the best use of the pedals in a Leavitt context.
But for sure if the student is more into the modern conventional pedal steel sound, they bought the wrong steel.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 20 Dec 2008 3:34 pm

Useless, I have heard that word many times in here.

The truth of the matter is, if it has strings, is set up like a steel guitar, it holds its tuning for a reasonable time and the pedals work, there is no reason that it cannot be used for a beginner model.

What is the point of going out and spending $2,000.00 on something that you will drop within a year or so.

My first guitar was a little $3.00 ukulele. I think I was about 9 years old. I could play that thing like all get out. (I had to re-tune about every third song but that didn't slow me down one bit)

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 20 Dec 2008 3:44 pm

Les please understand that the term useless is coming from guys that have been playing for many years and they see this guitar as useless to them . I also know that if you buy an instrument that wont do what you think it should it can discourage you from trying . You can buy a older pro steel that doesn't have the reputation such as the Emmons /Sho~Buds has for a reasonable price . All they may need is some oil and adjusting to get you on the right track . Any student needs a guitar that will raise and lower the ''E's'' to keep them busy for a long time . This is my point and nothing more .

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 20 Dec 2008 4:03 pm

I'd say it's of limited use, rather than totally useless. It could work well as a temporary student guitar, helping the guy get used to moving the bar, and the basic pedal changes and how they work. Soon he'll want something better, but for the time being, this can help him get started.

Plus, the guy got this for only $320. That's not a bad price for an entry level steel.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Dec 2008 5:38 pm

It looks useless as a pedalsteel to me. Every few months I get somebody coming over with there Ebay guitar. Its kinda tragic having to tell guys that the deal they found on the internet or at some regular music store is unplayable junk. I have them try out a couple real ones so they can see what they are getting into and let them decide if its worth it to get a playable steel.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 20 Dec 2008 6:16 pm

I'd say it's far from useless.

I'd tune it low to high...

D,F,A,C,E,G,A,C

The raises I'd put on it are

String 1 C to D (pedal 4)
String2 A to B (pedal 3)
String 5 C to C# (pedal 2)
String 7 F to F# (pedal 1)

This would give you a Dm (7)(9)(11) tuning

Pedal 1 would give you D (7)(9)(11)
Pedal 2 would give you A7 (#9)
Pedal 3 would give you Am9 and Cmaj7 and Em
Pedal 4 would give you Am7,C6/9

You also have an Am7/D or D11
If you played pedals 3 and 4 together you'd get Em7/A bass or A11 and a G

BTW, you'd have inversions of your major and minor chords at 5 fret and 7 fret intervals without slants.

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 20 Dec 2008 6:25 pm

I wonder about the pickup? Any idea of the tone? I'd be more interested in the tone prior to ditching it. But... it does look like good fire wood as long as it sounds like it looks. I've never seen anything like it before... but wouldn't it be something if it had a unique cool tone. Also... how old is it? It may be a student model by todays standards, but, if its old, it may have been the real deal back then. Just my curious input.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Dec 2008 8:47 pm

think useless is a good term in this case

Why?

It's a question that can't be answered based on the given info in the initial post.

As Josh said, if he wants to play conventional country steel it's the wrong thing, sure - but it's FAR from useless.

I don't know if it's a decent guitar or not, but the setup is like the basic Fender 400 - and can be tuned to Fender's standard A6, a version of C6, or even an abbreviated version of Sneaky Pete's B6, which gives you a low-voiced (in 6-string range) guitar with somewhat "normal" A&B pedals and a couple of different ways of using the other two. Works great for country-rock, blues and basic county.

So i simply depends on where he wants to go - and whether the teacher can teach outside the "E9 lock-box". I never found a teacher like that, and learned on my own.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Dec 2008 9:08 pm

Jim Sliff wrote:
think useless is a good term in this case
Why?

It's a question that can't be answered based on the given info in the initial post.

I agree. Shucks, I'm looking for an 8-string Multi-Kord myself! Fact is, many players here would be totally lost without 5 or more knee levers, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lotta music in a simple axe like that. It's an early-to-mid '60s model, and looks to be substantially made, and easily upgraded.

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 21 Dec 2008 2:58 am

Hi Mike, on the latter part of 1969 just before I started on pedal steel, I saw that very same make guitar in a music shop in London's "Tin Pan Alley" The salesman who was an experienced steel player (Pete Willsher) advised me against it because of it's limitations on the pulls and the fact it was 8 strings. Good of him as he could have earned the commision on the sale. I'd suggest go for a 10 with 3 pedals and 4 knees.

Micky Byrne United Kingdom

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Dec 2008 9:54 am

I think the term "useless" has got us off on the wrong track. An 8-string pedal steel could be useful to an experienced player who wanted to experiment or maybe even specialize in playing 8-string pedal steel. I kind of like all the sliding around and moving harmony people did before the chromatic strings were added, and sort of envy the old timers who started that way. But I'm not sure such an 8-string specialist would want this outdated relic.

But the real question here is whether you want a student to start out on something so mechanically limited and with some unconventional tuning. Sure you could tune it to some no-pedal standard tuning and have them start on the basics that way. But the guy seems to want to learn pedal steel. I would advise him not to try to reinvent the wheel with a quirky antique and a weird tuning, but to start on something very standard and leave the experimenting for later. The only exception would be someone experienced with other instruments who is very unconventional and understands he will be learning something very unconventional.

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 21 Dec 2008 11:44 am

This has turned into an interesting discussion but unfortunately for the kid who bought that "pedal steel" I'm afraid he'll be disappointed with it. I haven't talked to him recently, but I can only assume he wants the hear the sounds he hears on todays country recordings and as we all know, he'll have a hard time getting those with that axe. Agreed, he can learn hand technique, blocking etc etc but as a teacher, I'd rather have him start with an instrument that will get him the sounds he expects. It's like giving a 10 year a real piece of junk guitar with high action and bad tone, he lose interest really fast. I always tell parents to get the best you can afford, not only will it make the student happy, keep their interest and inspire them to get better, if they do lose interest, it still has some worth when you go to resell it.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 21 Dec 2008 1:56 pm

It's not good for a beginner, but I like it. It would be a great addition to my 8 string pedal steel "collection".

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 21 Dec 2008 3:45 pm

b0b,

Want me to see if he wants to sell it?

Post by **b0b** » 21 Dec 2008 4:11 pm

Not now, Mike. I don't have the money and I have too many projects.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Dec 2008 6:44 pm

but I can only assume he wants the hear the sounds he hears on todays country recordings

Making that assumption is what got people to sell me and try to get me to play instruments and styles that didn't fit where I wanted to go. It cost me a bunch of money, frustration and time before I could finally find a few folks who understood AND could help with what I was looking for.

And based on many threads I'm reading lately - **what** "today's country recordings" with steel would he be trying to emulate....because it sure seems like folks are complaining there ARENT very many.

I know sometimes this sounds like a broken record - but a pedal steel is an instrument, NOT a style.

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 21 Dec 2008 7:57 pm

OK, let me make myself a bit more clear. Wether it's Patsy Cline or Brad Paisley, George Jones or Alan Jackson, the main effect you hear is the "rock the first pedal on while the second pedal is down" lick or the typical 5 to 1 ending lick of no pedals to pedals 1 & 2. These are the cliches that you hear everybody do over and over. That's not to put down the instrument, I love pedal and lap steel and have worked tirelessly to see that the art of playing it grows beyond these cliches, but when I'm in a studio session and they want "that sound" you play what they want to hear. But just like the Banjo has Skruggs picking banjo rolls, Dobro has slides and pull offs in the key of G and lap steel does an octave slide of a 6th chord at the end of a Hawaiian tune, people have come to expect certain sounds from certain instruments.

This Cello player that asked if I could teach him pedal steel on that unusual instrument would have a hard time producing the sounds he's heard in Country music from any era with that instrument. But if he can buy even a Carter Starter, he'll be on his way to making the sounds he's heard before and hopefully, eventually make his own music after he gets the hang of it by learning all the intros, turn-arounds and classic licks we've all spent so much time trying to master.

If he wants to be a heavy metal guitarist I wouldn't recommend a tele through a twin, if he wanted to be a country guitarist I wouldn't say get a Flying V and a Marshall stack, so if he wants to be a pedal steel player I wouldn't say that weird instrument would get him where he wants to go.

And you're right, pedal steel is an instrument and not a style but when you ask a guitar player to play some pedal steel licks, what does he play and why are all the string bending gadgets for guitar built on the principle of the first 2 pedals? The answer is, it allows them to play all those good old cliches.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Dec 2008 5:40 am

why are all the string bending gadgets for guitar built on the principle of the first 2 pedals? The answer is, it allows them to play all those good old cliches.

Actually it were not designed(at least the best known and most copied, the Parsons-White) around copying pedal steel licks - it was designed around copying the ability to bend chimed or open notes behind the nut in other positions. It wasn't pedal steel licks Clarence White was trying to emulate, and his style, once fully developed, sounded very little like a pedal steel at all. I've been playing the things for over 3 decades and maybe play "steel" licks 5% of the time.

I understand what you're saying about the stereotyping of the instrument - but that's exactly the problem. IF you asked a potential new player you might get a different answer than you expect - the problem being most country steel players won't ever ask, or if they DO and get an answer that's outside the norm they aren't equipped to deal with it.

learning all the intros, turn-arounds and classic licks we've all spent so much time trying to master.

Again - "we" all have not been trying to master those. Most have - but you're just continuing the forced limits on the instrument by the statements you make. At a New Years' gig two songs I'm playing steel on are "Brown Eyed Girl" and "Wonderful Tonight". Not a lot of "classic licks" are being applied....

And BTW, a Tele and Twin works pretty darned well in metal if you set both of them up right!