An Ideal 6-String Lap Steel Tuning

[Ray Langley]

Hello again Mike. Whenever I ask for sage advice, I fully expect to see the good, the bad, and the ugly...... You are 100% correct in the assumption that I am looking for familiarity and even a "magic shortcut". My mind is not stubbornly closed on the
subject of C6 (or other standard) tunings.

In fact, I have an ad in the Wanted Section of this forum, and another ad in my local Craigslist seeking used C6 instructional materials. I mentioned the desire to own, rent, or borrow the Jerry Byrd Course. So far, there has been no response. If necessary, I will probably sell a guitar to buy this course.

I wish someone would explain to me why the C6 or the Leavitt tunings are superior to the ones that Robert and Danny posted in this thread. I am ready to be
convinced. I can read standard notation and I do understand chord construction theory. The few short audio clips I have heard in the Leavitt tuning sounds very much like the sound I would like to have. But, it seems that this tuning works best in
a band or group situation? I am pretty much all alone, musically. I posted a list of my 10 favorite songs in this thread. I just want to play those.

Every year I tried to so a solo fingerpicking "show" for the summer family reunion and the family Xmas party in December. This year I convinced one of my brothers to take a couple of harmonica lessons. Another sings Karaoke in bars. The other one plays guitar. I played 3 blues tunes lapstyle in Open E. The photo was taken last Saturday night. Yes, I do have a lot of beginner's enthusiam but as you
can see, I really am an old fart. <grin>

This is a great thread. I have received several private emails from some older folks who are inspired to "try lap steel again" with a simpler tuning. I share their desire and their
frustration. All I'm looking for is the truth, even when it hurts.

Danny, you are a funny guy! I have been in contact with Chris. Thank you. Robert, we think alike....

[Mike Vallandigham]

Rock on Ray, is that a cigarette in the headstock of that guitar your holding, ala Eddie VanHalen?

[Ray Langley]

Hey Mike! Although I do smoke (everything), that is a clip-on Korg tuner..... Unfortunately, I need a magnifying glass to read the darn thing. I think I need a tuner the size of a wall clock.

Speaking of EVH, I devoted a year of my musical life to trying to learn two-handed tapping on a Mobius Megatar touchstyle instrument. It is similar to a Chapman Stick. I was a dismal failure at it!!! I have considered converting that 12 stringed instrument to a lap steel but I don't know how that would work out with a 34" scale instrument. It has the six strings of a bass guitar and six strings of a regular guitar, both sides tuned in parallel 4ths.

[Rick Aiello]

I wish someone would explain to me why the C6 or the Leavitt tunings are superior to the ones that Robert and Danny posted in this thread.

I sure ain't gonna say any tuning is "superior" to another ...

But since you have "done up" a few "maps" ... take alook here ...

http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m7_1.htm

The first "block" on each tuning gives you the major scale "map" of the fretboard ...

Below that ... tab that illustrates the most common harmony positions used ...

This is a "slant primer" ... ala the JB Course you mention ...

But it will show you the availability of chord and chord partials ... found in these familiar old Hawaiian tunings ...

As you can see ... the C6/A7 tuning offers the player a tremendous amount of available harmonies ... albeit most are associated with forward, reverse and split slant maneuvers ...

Just tryin' to be helpful ...

[Mark Deffenbaugh]

Another 2¢ for this pot:

The richness and fertility of a tuning is determined by what will grow in it: a good one is one that supports a large crop of excellent music. The only tunings that have passed this test are members of the familiar families of tunings we have received from Hoopii, Iona, MacIntire, Dunn, Murphy, Byrd and all the rest. No doubt there are unproven tunings that are just as fertile (the jury, I'd say, is currently deliberating on Leavitt).

Now, I'm all for striking out for parts unknown. On the other hand, Columbus had been a sailor for 26 years before he set off west to reach the East. It probably wouldn't have been a good plan for someone less experienced.

[Ray Langley]

Rick Aiello, Thank you for the link to your site. I cut and pasted all of your charts and diagrams into Word, then printed everything out. I spent time
with your sections on forward, split, and reverse slants in the C6/A7 tuning.

The information on your excellent site taught me a valuable lesson and saved me some money too. Due to old injuries sustained from multiple accidents
and a couple of bone diseases, I find it impossible to perform reverse slants without pain. So, I am no longer in the market for C6 instructional materials.

On the other hand, forward slants seem to work ok for me. I tried to use a Dunlop 919 bullet nosed bar but could not hang on to it. Right now, I'm using
a Dunlop 926 Lap Dawg. That kinda limits the split slants.

So, instead of the $117 Jerry Byrd course, my wife just now ordered me the "Slide Guitar of Kelly Joe Phelps" DVD for less than $23 on Ebay. He plays
lapstyle, with a bar, in Open D tuning.

[Rick Aiello]

Well, this isn't the first time I "turned someone off" ... to the C6/A7 tunin' ...

But it is usually via my playing ...

Anyway ...

Not knowing your situation ... you should follow your own instincts ... as to what you wish to pursue ...

That said ... for a player with no preexisting conditions ...

Reverse slanting ... done the "Jerry Byrd" way ... is very ergonomic ... and shouldn't cause any discomfort ...

It is all done with the thumb ... wielding the bullet bar's butt around ... "about" the pivot point ... created with the arched index finger ... and catching the nose with the middle finger ...

But it takes lots of practice ... as does any maneuver on the steel guitar ...

Good luck on your journey ...

[Ray Langley]

Mark Deffenbaugh, Thank you for weighing in on this apparently controversial topic.

It is interesting that of the six players you mentioned in your post, I have only heard of two of them.

I am MUCH more interested in the playing of lapsteelers Sonny Rhodes and Freddie Roulette.
Neither of them play using the tried-and-true traditional tunings.

This personal preference is nothing more than "different strokes for different folks". Since
developing a fervent desire to learn more about lap steel, I have been listening to the tunes on steelradio.com for several hours a day. About half the time, I mute the tune or turn it down low enough that it doesn't bother me. I find some pedal steel and some lap steel music to be quite annoying.... Blues is my favorite musical form, but there is also some blues music that does not ring my bell. Again, just personal preference.

As for Columbus and striking out for parts unknown: I have been playing regular guitar since 1960. At one point I had 5 guitars sitting in stands, all in different alternate tunings. Yes, it was often confusing to switch mentalities when going from one tuning to another. I had guitars in standard tuning, Dropped D, Open G, Open D/E, and G6 (DGDGBE). Joni Mitchell used as many as 30 different tunings. This is what I am trying to avoid in lap steel! I'd like to play in one or two tunings only....

The very first line in the original post on page 1 of this thread states: "I do realize that this
may likely not be the ideal tuning for YOU!"

In fact, it may not even be the ideal tuning for me. Slide guitar master, Derek Trucks, can play anything in any key, while remaining in Open E tuning. I may be brand-new to the lap steel scene but I have been dabbling with slide guitar in open tunings for many years. It seems that some songs are made-to-order for a particular tuning. For instance "Jambalaya"
almost plays itself in G6 (alternating bass, fingerpicking style). Elizabeth Cotton's "Spanish
Flangdang" is impossible (in my opinion) in any tuning except Open G. I wrote a simple song called "Angels Carried Him Away" in Open D. I can't make that one sound right in any other tuning. I doubt that anyone could play "Dust My Broom" convincingly in C6 tuning.

The only point I'm trying to make is that there may be an ideal tuning for you and there may be an ideal tuning for me. There can be an ideal tuning for a particular song. There can be an ideal tuning for a particular style, such as low G for Dobro, etc. Thank goodness we have some choices. "Ideal, like beauty, is in the eyes and ears of the beholder".

[Ray Langley]

I am honored to announce that forum member James Kerr has recorded the very first tune in RayzE13thTuning!

For those who may not know, James is the designer of the Springfield Steel Guitar, and used to own the company. Apparantly, the posting of this tuning inspired him to dust off his old lap steel, and record a song with it.

Here is the link to his web site:

http://www.myspace.com/jameskerrsteel

The song is Hallelujah! It is the first song listed. Beautiful playing James... Thank you for sharing it with us. James told me he thinks he will stick with this tuning for quite a while.

Congratulations, Mr. Kerr. It illuminates my heart to know that you are playing again after such a long layoff.

[Danny Bates]

Man that Hallelujah by James Kerr is great. How did he do that so quick?

Mike Neer said:

It really depends on what you're trying to play

Very true!

Check out the clip below. It shows many variations of style. It starts out with Mike Neer playing a bit of his song "Runaway Train". "Igelkott" by Fred Kinbom and "5AM" by Steiner Gregertsen.

Great stuff guys!

http://tinyurl.com/9x9fvw

[Chuck Mahoney]

Hey Mike! Although I do smoke (everything), that is a clip-on Korg tuner..... Unfortunately, I need a magnifying glass to read the darn thing. I think I need a tuner the size of a wall clock.

Ray - I suggest you try a pedal tuner. I am using the Planet Waves Chromatic Pedal Tuner, #PW-CT-04. It's really easy to use, and with the large LED display it is readable in almost any lighting situation. I never gig without it.

[Ray Langley]

Full Chords vs Partial Chords

Hawaiian Steel Guitar is primarily a "Melody" instrument. It is not necessary (or even desirable sometimes) ... to play full chords ... especially the more complex ones.

The Rhythm section ... will lay down the "foundation" of the song ...

Here is a nice list of "Double stops" and their associated chords ... that really make steel sound sweet while playin' the melody.


1-3 I , VIm

2-4 V7, IIm, VIIdim

3-5 I, IIIm

4-6 IV, IIm

5-7 V7, IIIm,

6-1 IV, VIm

7-2 V7, VIIdim

==========
The above Words to the Wise were pasted here directly from Rick Aiello's web site.
Sometimes, if I can just manage to get out of my own way with preconceived ideas,
the Universe guides me to Enlightenment. In this case, it pertains to lap steel guitar.
It fits in perfectly on this thread on Ideal Tunings. I was seeking to design a chord-
based system. The three axioms above were somewhat of an eye-opener for me!

Rick, since your information is so important, I wonder if you would mind taking the
time to expound on it a little more? Also, could you please show us how the same
principle would apply using parallel sixths harmonies?

As usual, I have made a diagram to clarify your double-stops in my mind. Your
concept will work exactly the same for any tuning, in any key, right? My diagram is
for any of the Open E type tunings where the top four strings are tuned to: EG#BE,
lowest to highest.
.
To keep on topic with the E13thTuning, the two bass strings could be tuned to any
combination of either E, B, C#, or D.

According to my diagram below, at the very top we have a 3 and a 5 on strings
3 and 2. These notes are G# and B (in the Key of E). So, if I understand this all
correctly, this double-stop can be played over an E chord or a G# minor chord.

At fret 10, we have tones 2 and 4 from the E Major Scale. These notes are named
F# and A. This double-stop will harmonize well with either a B7, F# minor, or a
(half) D# diminished chord. It all of that correct?

I always thought that double-stops were used to play the melody, and that any of
them in either 3rds or 6ths harmony sounded great when playing any melody. Am I
missing something?

BTW, I love your sense of humor AND your playing. I watched all your videos.
I especially enjoyed your use of vibrato. Some would call it excessive. I want to
play just like that! That is how the blues guys do vibrato. Also, I appreciate the
thousands of hours of drills and practice you put in so that you could make the
slants look effortless.

[Rick Aiello]

Rick, since your information is so important, I wonder if you would mind taking the time to expound on it a little more?

I'll try ...

The idea behind the JB style of melody w/ harmony ... is to keep the melody "flowing" ...

IE: Stay on the same string (or give the illusion of "staying" on the same string) ... and use straight bar, forward slants, reverse slants and "split slants" ... to add in appropriate* harmony notes ...

Most often this is not done using "Full Chords" ... picked or strummed ... but just one or two harmony notes ... added below the melody note.

Most of these harmony notes are usually ... Major/Minor Third Intervals ... Major/Minor Sixth Intervals ... And Perfect Fifths ...

Also, could you please show us how the same
principle would apply using parallel sixths harmonies?

Here you go ...

Code: Select all

1-6   IV,  VIm
2-7   V7,  VIIo
3-1   I,   VIm
4-2   IIm, VIIo
5-3   I,   IIIm
6-4   IV,  IIm
7-5   V7,  IIIm,   

Your concept will work exactly the same for any tuning, in any key, right? My diagram is for any of the Open E type tunings where the top four strings are tuned to: EG#BE,lowest to highest.

To keep on topic with the E13thTuning, the two bass strings could be tuned to any combination of either E, B, C#, or D.

According to my diagram below, at the very top we have a 3 and a 5 on strings
3 and 2. These notes are G# and B (in the Key of E).

So, if I understand this all correctly, this double-stop can be played over an E chord or a G# minor chord.

At fret 10, we have tones 2 and 4 from the E Major Scale. These notes are named F# and A. This double-stop will harmonize well with either a B7, F# minor, or a (half) D# diminished chord.

It all of that correct?

Yes ...

I always thought that double-stops were used to play the melody, and that any of them in either 3rds or 6ths harmony sounded great when playing any melody. Am I missing something?

The idea is to use the appropriate (major or minor) interval ... that will allow the player to "keep the flow going" ...

IE: not cut off the strings from ringing ... while you jump to a different string combination / fret position ...


EX: Opening phrases of Drowsy Waters ... C6 Tuning

Code: Select all

---9-|9--10--9--7--5--|-----4--5--|-7-------
-----|----------------|-4---------|---------
-----|----------------|-4---------|---------
---9-|9--11--9--7--6--|-----4--6--|-7-------
-----|----------------|-----------|---------
-----|----------------|-----------|---------                                 
      A                A           E7


------7-|-7--9--7--5--4|-----4---|-5-------
--------|--------------|-4-------|---------
--------|--------------|---------|---------
------7-|-7--9--7--6--4|-----4---|-6-------
--------|--------------|-4-------|---------
--------|--------------|---------|---------                                 
E7       E7             E7         A

Sorry about the tab/timing notation .... I'm not a very good "tabber" ... ha, ha


Anyway ... JB chooses to use the appropriate* Major/Minor Sixth Intervals to harmonize most of this part ...

This allows him to stay on the first string for the vast majority of melody notes ... and the fourth string for the harmony notes ...

The only two "breaks" in this seamless run ... he "disguises" with impeccable timing ... blocking the ringing strings at the same moment he engages the other pair ... giving the illusion that no "break was made" ...

Similar to his "P'Tah" technique ... for single note playing ...



* Appropriate choices for the harmony note(s) :

1) Ones that correspond to the chord being played at the time ...

Or ...

2) Choosing the harmony note from within the Key that the song is being played in ...

This is necessary, because sometimes the melody note is not part of the chord being played ... at that given time.

This is seen in the first measure above ....

The melody note D and it's harmony note F# ... or ... the melody note B and it's harmony note D ...

Code: Select all

-10-      --7--
----      -----
---- or   -----
-11-      --7--
                     
 

Are not being sounded by the rhythm section's A Major chord ...

But they are found within the Key of A ... so they "fit" as part of that seamless section ... being played over that A Major chord.

I especially enjoyed your use of vibrato. Some would call it excessive.

Oh , they have ...

But I find solace listening to my Andy Iona, Dick McIntire and Bobby Nichols records ...

And once a year traveling to Joliet to hear the vibratos of ...

Hal Smith, Mike Scott, Bernice Honold, Warren Slavin, Frank Della-Penna and Mae Lang ...

I'm sure the vibrato-minimalists out there ... would change their "tune" ... upon hearing these living legends of Hawaiian Style steel guitar ...

Anyway ... I hope that helps ...

[Edward Meisse]

Great thread. And I'm glad you joined in, Rick. You are much better at pointing out the advantages of the C6/A7 tuning than I. But I have also found the C6 family of tunings to be the most versatile in every way for either single string or harmonized play.
But you know if someone already is familiar with open E or open G tuning and are satisfied with what they are doing, who am I to interfere?

[Ray Langley]

I would like to offer my personal and profuse thanks to all who participated in this thread:

Chuck, Brad, Bill, James, Theo, Andy, Ron, Robert, Mike N.
Danny, Mike V., Rich, Mark, Edward, and me makes 15.

The consensus seems to be that the C6 family of tunings offers "the most versatility in every
way for either single string or harmonized play". But, unfortunately, along with that desired
versatility, there is a high level of complexity to deal with. I have doubts that my physical
condition and fading mental acuity may not quite be up to the task. Even so, if I had the
funds, I WOULD order the Jerry Byrd course....

It's a cold fact that I will never be inducted into the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame. Then again,
I don't aspire to be a steel guitarist. I would just like to learn a dozen or so really pretty
tunes on a lap steel guitar. There is a quote about the slide blues guitarist/singer "Hound
Dog Taylor". It says, "He couldn't play for s**t, but he sure made it sound good". Hey, I
could live with that!

In the meantime, I see expanding opportunities opening up in Open E tuning that I never
saw while playing slide in this tuning. Much of the slide playing I was doing subscribed to
the "Park and Play" principle. In other words, much of it was single-notes around the 10th
to 12th frets.

Using the bar/slide, I am learning more about sixths and thirds (2-note) harmonies on strings
3 and 1, and on strings 3 and 2. Both of these offer a full one octave scale between the open
strings and the 12th fret. All of these are either straight bar or one-fret forward slants. For me,
this is "doable". As usual, I am always happy to share my finding with the group here.

It is my sincere wish that I have not offended ANYONE during the course of this discussion.

Many of my questions have been answered here in this thread. In particular, Rick Aiello did re-open my eyes to some valuable insights. Again, thank you one and all.

I still say that "Steel Guitar Rag" sounds better and is easier to play in Open E than in C6!

[HowardR]

Ray.....this has been a great thread.....would you post your chart for the A11 tuning, or would you prefer a separate thread for that?......

[Mike Neer]

Ray, I understand completely where you're coming from. E is a great tuning. If you'd indulge me, I'd like to just offer up one more simple possibility for you, and that is open G tuning with a low D in the bass (D B G D G D, top to bottom). You could make a olot of great blues in that tuning.

[Ray Langley]

HowardR,

Your wish is my command! I made up those charts using a commercial program called "Chord Alchemy". I like it because you can cut and paste the charts to Microsoft Word or any other similar program, without having to print out all the advertising crap and other stuff. I'll download Danny and Robert's two tunings to Corel Draw, size them, and export them as .jpg files for the forum. Give me a little time.

I thought the thread was winding down, so I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed. But, it looks like it is not quite finished.

Many have read this thread but they did not comment for one reason or another. Many people are just shy. I wish I were more shy sometimes. From the many private emails I have received, I KNOW that many others share my frustration. There are a lot of folks out there who would like to "dabble" in lap steel or lapstyle playing, but don't have a clue where to begin. Many have hectic lives and just don't have the time or inclination to delve into the "grownup" tunings. (I say that tongue in cheek). But, it is true that some of the teaching materials are geared more to "Greek as a Second Language".

It almost seems like you have to throw away everything you have ever learned about guitar and start over. If I were younger, I would definately take that route!!! But, for now, I think I will be content to wade around in the shallow end of the pool. That may change at any moment.....

[Ray Langley]

Mr. Neer,

You are a gentleman and a scholar. I was really looking forward to your return to this thread!

In 1973, the Open G tuning you mentioned was the very reason that I entered the world of Open Tunings. I had just heard Elizabeth Cotton play a live performance, including her "Spanish Flangdang",
in San Francisco. Man, that one "struck a chord" in my soul. When I play at my family summer and winter family reunions, I always close with that one. My version of the tune is quite different from hers. It is the only song I have ever recorded. I call mine, "Spanish Fandango", or just plain Fandango....

Every family reunion, I play Silent Night in Open G, even in the summer. Both of these songs are in the alternating bass, fingerpicking style.

Thank you VERY much for your input. I know that you weren't being unkind before. In my "psychic eye" I did "see" many others shaking their heads and thinking that they would like to slap me upside the head. <chuckle> There are many different levels of ability on this forum. That is what makes it so great!

[b0b]

That's an interesting tuning, Ray.

Have you thought of lowering that 6th string to A#, for a low F#7th (3-5-b7)? That might be more useful than having the b7th as the lowest tone of the E7th chord.

Also, it gives you the diminished triad on adjacent strings. I use that in blues all the time, between the IV chord and the I chord.

[Ray Langley]

Happy Winter Solstice, Brother bOb, or should I say "Father bOb" since you are the creator of this most excellent forum? I moderate/own more than 20 groups on yahoogroups and subscribe to about 30 others. I think the time of the yahoogroups is past and the time of the FORUMS, like this one is the wave of the future.

When I saw your name before opening this post, I thought "Oh, crap.... bOb is shutting me down for talking too much and not saying enough... <big>

I hadn't thought of your suggestion, but you can bet your sweet bippie I will. Are you a turtle?

When you drive from Cloverdale to Tahoe or Reno, you have to drive past my place. You have a standing invitation to drop in.

Thanks again for providing this home for kindred spirits! </big>

[b0b]

Thanks for the offer Ray. I haven't been to Reno in many years, though, and I've never been to Tahoe. Heck, I hardly ever leave Cloverdale!

I think Ralph Mooney has that low A# in his E tuning. It gives you an A7 at the 3rd fret, and you know how useful the 3rd fret is when you're playing the blues in E!

[Ray Langley]

I call this Danny Bates Tuning - Part 1 because even though Robert Murphy posted it first in this thread, Danny posted it first to the forum in another thread.

It has several strong points, including a 3-note major triad in two different places. The same is true of minor triads, and 4-note minor 7th triads. But, there is no full 7th chord.....

The chord labeled Dm is really a Dm7. The program had a glitch.

Here it is:

[Ray Langley]

Here you have a 6th chord in two places. Also included is a major scale and a minor pentatonic scale.

Robert Murphy's A11th charts soon to appear here.

[Danny Bates]

Ray, Please notice in your chart the C major scale starting at the 5th string 12th fret.

I wish it could be named after me but it's a derivative from a standard C6 pedal steel tuning with the 7th pedal pressed. Strings 3 thru 8

The Jerry Byrd C6/A7 that Rick posted is also like a C6 pedal steel tuning with the 8th pedal. Strings 2 thru 7

Another one I like is very close to the coveted "RayzE13th"

High to low
E,B,G#,E,C#,A

Low to high
A,C#,E,G#,B,E