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Topic: I don't get it - people still don't know what a PSG is! |
Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 18 Oct 2008 5:24 pm |
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| This has probably been hashed over already, but considering the fact that the PSG has been around since the early 50's and is one of the most popular and recognizable sounds ever recorded, people still don't know what a PSG is! |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 18 Oct 2008 5:29 pm
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Including soundmen! 
_________________
A.K.A Chappy.
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 18 Oct 2008 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2008 6:27 pm
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AND Technical Directors 
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 4:14 am
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| I like the one where some well meaning listener comes up and tells me they like my "keyboard" playing. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 7:20 am
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Uh, maybe that's because 90% of the music stores and OVER 90% of the bands playing varied styles of live music don't have a steel. The general public just does not see them much. Here in LA - one of the most populous areas of the country, with more people than some states - there are NO pedal steel stores (the nearest two being 50 and 80 miles from downtown LA) and I have not seen a pedal steel played live in two years or so (a motorcycle store party Doug Livingston played at); and it's not like I don't get out much.
It's an instrument unfortunately relegated to one style of music for the most part (Sacred Steel, despite Robert Randolph, does not have the following of pop music) - country - and isn't even used that often in *modern* country.
People don't know what it is because they are not exposed to it.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 7:36 am
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I agree Jim.
It is indeed unfortunate that the world's most beautiful instrument is obscure to MOST people on this planet, yet its nearest cousin is not only known by most people on earth, but it is played by millions of musicians all over earth.
If it was not for country music and its closest cousin (so-called "gospel music"), I dare say it would have already gone the way of the Accordion.
So we must accept things as they are, and hope for the better in the future, But...........
"If wishes were horses, beggers would ride", is still very appropos, IMO.
I do have one question however; and maybe some of you can answer it. Why is it (even considering all the above); that sound men, cameramen and technical directors, along with countless others; have NO difficulty whatsoever finding what Jerry Douglas, et-al, is playing; whenever or wherever they play?
Huh?
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 8:09 am
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| When you can go to Sam's or Walmart and buy a decent looking guitar for less then $150 while the lowest priced pedal steel is closer to $1000 it's no wonder kids are more likely to learn or be exposed to guitar then Psg. There's no help for it really, how could any one build a psg for that price? Even a cheap lap steel can't be found in stores, only on line for the most part. Just my opinion. |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 9:34 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
Uh, maybe that's because 90% of the music stores and OVER 90% of the bands playing varied styles of live music don't have a steel. The general public just does not see them much. Here in LA - one of the most populous areas of the country, with more people than some states - there are NO pedal steel stores (the nearest two being 50 and 80 miles from downtown LA) and I have not seen a pedal steel played live in two years or so (a motorcycle store party Doug Livingston played at); and it's not like I don't get out much.
It's an instrument unfortunately relegated to one style of music for the most part (Sacred Steel, despite Robert Randolph, does not have the following of pop music) - country - and isn't even used that often in *modern* country.
People don't know what it is because they are not exposed to it. |
Good points. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 3:12 pm
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It's not just the pedal steel guitar, most of the public think that the lute is a wind instrument. 
You're addressing a forum where everyone has a vested interest in the steel guitar. Before you get too worried about a lack of recognition, how many steel guitarists can tell me what a sackbutt is ? (Clue: Almost every orchestra has several of them.) |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 3:38 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
It's not just the pedal steel guitar, most of the public think that the lute is a wind instrument.
You're addressing a forum where everyone has a vested interest in the steel guitar. Before you get too worried about a lack of recognition, how many steel guitarists can tell me what a sackbutt is ? (Clue: Almost every orchestra has several of them.) |
I give up...what's a sackbutt? |
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Carl Vilar
From:
New Jersey USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 3:43 pm
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A Sackbut is a brass instrument from the Renaissance and Baroque Eras it's the ancestor of the modern trombone.
_________________
JCH 9/7
1971 Blond Twin Reverb 15" custom
Randall Steel Man 500 |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 3:44 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| how many steel guitarists can tell me what a sackbutt is ? (Clue: Almost every orchestra has several of them.) |
Actually, almost NO orchestras have any of them at all. They are the Baroque/Renaissance precursor to the trombone. Good luck finding one in a modern orchestra, Alan! 
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 4:37 pm Re: I don't get it
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| Glen Derksen wrote: |
| ...considering the fact that the PSG has been around since the early 50's and is one of the most popular and recognizable sounds ever recorded, people still don't know what a PSG is! |
Well, it's actually been around since the '30s (and you call yourself a steelplayer?  )
I just had to poke a little fun, there.
And no, it's not one of the most popular and recognizable sounding instruments to non-musicians (and that's the majority of people).
Last year, I checked a mail-order catalog. They had far more ukuleles, banjos and mandos than they did pedal steels, lap steels, and resonators combined. That same catalog had hundreds of guitars and bass guitars, so we're not even in the running for "most popular" instruments.
Another way to judge popularity is by a Google search...
Guitar rates highest at 250,000,000 hits.
Piano's pretty high too, at 220,000,000 hits.
Accordion has a decent showing with 8,840,000 hits.
Bagpipes comes in at 2,800,000 hits.
Banjo follows closely with 2,020,000 hits.
Pedal steel guitar?
Say what???
Pedal steel guitar, a mere 519,000 hits
That puts us just above the 458,000 of the pan flute's.
Pedal steel guitar may be a big deal to us, but it's not on many other people's radar. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 7:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| And no, it's not one of the most popular and recognizable sounding instruments to non-musicians (and that's the majority of people). |
Man, how did I miss THAT?
Popular and recognizable sounding to "non-musicians"?
Hardly. Most non musicians have NO idea what one sounds like, nor are they "fans" of it. You're dreaming.
In fact, I'd wager most *musicians* are not steel fans" - nor do they know what one sounds like.
The majority of classical, bebop, blues, punk, metal, hardcore, marching band, krumhorn, recorder (the instrument) players and the 8-zillion kids that are at Guitar Center on Saturday creating the chaos that makes me visit those stores at gunpoint on weekends probably wouldn't know a pedal steel if you put one in front of them. Nor would they know what the SOUND was if you played it for them without any hints or visual clues.
My beef with pedal steel has always been the fact that the instrument has incredible potential, but is pigeonholed primarily in one style - and a very vocal number of players don't want that to change, and in fact get downright angry when they hear pedal steel played in a non-country setting.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy; the existing players (and I mean experienced ones, with good technical knowledge and playing skills) do, IMO, a very poor job of trying to expose the instrument to a wider audience, and instead try to "shelter" it so it remains unsullied.
Thus we see NO generic instructional materials...or better yet, instructional materials that don't even COVER country. Nobody qualified want to take a chance. This has been discussed to death - but when terms like "our music", "real pedal steel music", "noise" (in describing other styles) and such are regular components of this forum, NOTHING will change.
Part of it is marketing. Paul Franklin put out a pretty cool Rock Pedal Steel tape set a while back that even a beginner could work with. But it was marketed not to non-steelers, there were no Guitar Player or Guitar World ads, there were no "package deals" - a beginner steel and the course - no, it was marketed to pedal steel players.
Why? I can only guess the assumption was (based on the way it was presented and some of the wording used - i.e. comparisons to specific "country" songs only a country player would know) that the existing steel market is the ONLY market.
Example: "Working Man Blues" was used as an example of what NOT to play when in "rock mode"...but no rock player wanting to learn steel would have a clue what he was talking about.
It's preaching to the choir.
Someone with experience AND guts has to get outside the box or steel will remain an instrument in its own little world. Look at those search-engine "hits" posted earlier - and be embarrassed.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 7:46 pm
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| Glen Derksen wrote: |
| ...I give up...what's a sackbutt? |
As Carl and Jim said, it's the old name for a trombone. As the instrument has evolved from the mediaeval instrument to the modern instrument its name has gradually changed from the sackbutt to the trombone.
I'm just making the point that what seems evident to someone who plays an instrument is not evident even to other musicians. |
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Scott Malchow
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2008 9:58 pm
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Does this mean I was wrong-??
I started on psg so the girls would notice me....
rats.
Reminds me of what I remember to be a Rusty Young quote:
There's only one steel guitar groupie. She lives in Dubuque and she has to be in at 10. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 12:43 am
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Jim Sliff wrote
| Quote: |
My beef with pedal steel has always been the fact that the instrument has incredible potential, but is pigeonholed primarily in one style - and a very vocal number of players don't want that to change, and in fact get downright angry when they hear pedal steel played in a non-country setting.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy; the existing players (and I mean experienced ones, with good technical knowledge and playing skills) do, IMO, a very poor job of trying to expose the instrument to a wider audience, and instead try to "shelter" it so it remains unsullied. |
Jim I think it's that we all like to eat and Country PSG buys the groceries.
I think the PSG has progressed way above old country music that's generally played in small venues and the PSG player far out shines most of those Bands.
Pedal Steel got trapped in Nashville and can never get out.
You can play your Rock, Blues, Jazz and about any style PSG you want to in the new country just like the guitar player who rocks it out, and it will fit right in a live performance.
But it seems that on recordings the producers are going to let the guitar player go wild and only let the PSG player play that E9 crying PSG above the 12th fret. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:09 am
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| Quote: |
| But it seems that on recordings the producers are going to let the guitar player go wild and only let the PSG player play that E9 crying PSG above the 12th fret. |
They certainly don't seem to do that with Robert Randolph or Chuck Campbell, so I don't think that hold true at all EXCEPT in a country context.
The style of music and what the band is bringing to the table dictates much of what the producer is going to do. If some band had a steel player - but they were a hard rock band - it's ludicrous and an example of the narrow-minded "our instrument" thinking to assume the producer, while the rest of the band is grinding away in dropped-D on their Ibanez/Mesa rigs, would be telling the steel player to play "e9 crying PSG".
But thanks Bo - you've just proved my point again.
Unless THAT type of perception goes away, with few exception pedal steel will be a limited-use, one-trick pony. A country instrument.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:28 am
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| I was 48 when I discovered steel guitar. I was playing bass guitar and joined a little mom/pop opry, and they had a steel player. Believe it or not, I could stand right in front of a steel guitar and not "see/hear" it, because I was focused on bass, or focused on the lead guitar. Steel guitar was NOT on my musical radar screen all those years. But when I DID discover steel guitar, I didn't just discover it, IT yanked me sideways!! I've been on it ever since. I imagine I may not be the only one who did not "see/hear" steel guitar. Now a-days, I can't believe the steel as an instrument in the music I grew up on(rock and country) music was so "invisible". Weird, huh? |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:32 am
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The Rolling Stones, tried promoting pedal steel...
Could be the reason for it's decline.... |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:33 am
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Lunatic Fringe, Red Rider, the general public has no idea that they are listening to a PSG playing the leads. They think it is just another slide guitar.
I was jamming with friends yesterday when someone came in and asked what the PSG was, said they had never seen one before. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:37 am
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| Jerry Dragon wrote: |
Lunatic Fringe, Red Rider, the general public has no idea that they are listening to a PSG playing the leads. They think it is just another slide guitar.
I was jamming with friends yesterday when someone came in and asked what the PSG was, said they had never seen one before. |
Exactly. Sounds about what I was like. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 5:54 am
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Well Jim Sliff gave his unabridged (I assume) opinions. And I respect him for that.
So I shall give mine. Now let's see if I will get the same respect.
I agree totally with some of what Jim said. I will add that I have ALWAYS resented the fact that steel guitar, and especially pedal steel guitar, has been relegated to basically two forms of music: "country" and so-called "gospel" music.
I would love few things more than to see the steel guitar, especially the pedal steel guitar, in classical music and what I call "listening" music; such as what the world used to call "popular music". Or as my kids say "Dentist music". Etc, etc.
This is one of the reasons I admired and loved Jerry Byrd's playing soooo very much. He was one of the "few" country players who could (and relished) playing many other forms of music, including "latin" music; which I believe he excelled at.
His rendtion of "LaGolendrina" alone is my all time favorite of ANY steel guitar solo I have ever heard played by any player in the world, to date.
My second is; "Once Upon a Time in the West", as done by Buddy Emmons on the stage of the Chase Park Plaza hotel during one of the early ISGC's. In fact this was recordered live and mixed by Buddy himself, as it became a 2 part album. Which IMO, Buddy never played better.
And there was little "country" played on his set that night. But some of the most incredibly awesome music EVER to be heard came out of his amp. As one great player said, "Ya outdone yerself that night 'bud' emmons!".
Jaoquin Murphy was another. Curley Chalker was another. So were others, BEFORE the steel guitar dived into "country" and has, sadly, been sunk there ever since. IE, during the 30's and 40's EVEN "Big Bands" often had steel guitar players on staff.
As was brought out on another thread, even my own "Hawaiian Guitar" teacher Letritia Kandle (a finished musician; trained by the Chicago Conservatory of Music) was a prime example of how far the steel guitar could go; as she was featured often by Paul Whitman and his orchestra in the heyday of "popular music". With her incredible "Grand Letar" lighting up the show.
During those years, it was NOT uncommon to hear steel guitar in many forms of music, and some steel guitar teachers (and studios) even wrote and produced sheet music for such. This is all gone now for the most part.
One more.....
Rico Turchetti, repeatedly featured on the Arthur Godfry TV show in the '50's, was one of the most awesome displays of crafstmanship (musically speaking) and physical dexterity I ever saw, when it comes to our beloved instrument. It was as though he was a human octopus, as he made use of every inch of his body in playing on a home made "pedal" steel guitar, some of the most beautful NON country songs imaginable.
I resent that all of this is gone. But ya know what I resent even worse?
Hold on while I put me flame suit on.  Remember it is my opinion, no different than others have opinions.
I resent the notion that steel guitar must become a "fixture" into a music style that I (and others) abhor with every fiber of my (our) being; ever since a young undisciplined youth strapped a guitar around his neck and rebelled against everything decent, moral, proper and mannerly; and then the entire world bought into his recalcitrant rebellious "shakings, rattling's and rollings" to drag music and everything else imaginable into the cesspool of decandance. No differently than in the days leading up to the total destrucition of two cities called "Sodom and Gamorrah".
I said that to say (and repeat), that IF the only way the steel guitar can survive, is to join and play horrendously loud "NOISE" (called music) which is right out of satan's hell "abyss", then LET it die by the grace of Jesus.
For I would rather it become ONLY a beautiful memory. than to see it sell its soul to wickedness, for the sake of that so-called "music".
Flame on if'n it suits yer fancy
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 6:14 am
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Dear Friend Carl...I know where you're coming from, but there's a couple things that comes to my mind when I hear that argument.
We all know the steel can sing, while some have made it talk, no doubt we've heard it moan,whisper and laugh...and importantly praise God in the Highest....why can't it be allowed to scream too? |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 20 Oct 2008 6:54 am
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Carl, I'll bite first. Who would the gentleman you're speaking of possibly be? Elvis?
Now don't take offense, (unless you want to) but are you so pure, (and I respect you for standing up and expressing your total love toward your Christianity, religion, or whatever.
And, it's your total right to express yourself, any way you like. But I must add, (just in my experiences in life). Those who always try to express themselves the most, and bring either Christ, or the Lord into every subject, are usually either trying to convince themselves of their purity in life, and/or others.
Again, sorry if I offend you, I'm a Christian myself, but I don't feel I should bring my feelings onto a forum. Not for fear of offending anyone, but simply because I don't feel I have the right to.
But I'll say this: Doesn't it say to "GO" out into ALL the world and PREACH THE GOSPEL?
Just suppose, what you're having to say about someone (the kid you were speaking of) and God himself didn't feel that way at all about him? Wouldn't you then be condemning yourself?
Just something to think about. My thoughts are that God loves everyone of us.
He also says, that when you PRAY go into a CLOSET so that you're NOT seen by others. Such as the Heathens who openly pray so people will feel they're righteous.
I'm not judging you, I'm simply stating what you're saying is (to me) very wrong of you to Judge Others, Least you be Judged, Much more.
I leave the judging of everyone, up to the man who is best fit to judge.
I suppose you wouldn't like me if I were a biker or some other person that you seen fit to judge in error.. It's wrong! Totally and purely Wrong of you to do!
Brother, I can tell you that you are NOT without many great sins yourself.. Give that one some thought.. I can say that, simply because HE says that there is NO-ONE without sin.
That's all I have to say on that subject.
Sorry if I offended you. |
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