Send the guitar or the money.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 8 Oct 2008 3:55 pm

Ford Cole wrote:Hey Charles..I'm in the same boat with a builder in Texas. Very frustrating!

This is not very fair to the several fine Texas Steel guitar builders doing a fine job, who are NOT at fault. You should maybe at least say who it isn't?

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 8 Oct 2008 5:55 pm

Greg Cutshaw said of Bill Rudolph of Williams Guitar Company: "He has got to be one of the most honest and hard working instrument builders on this planet. His verbal committments really mean something and I would have no concerns about ordering another Williams guitar sight unseen with just a delivery date in hand. "

Having bought from Bill having had repairs done on several guitars (some of which were not Williams), I agree wholeheartedly. Besdies Bill being honest and hard working, he also produces an outstanding pedal steel. steve t

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 9 Oct 2008 12:05 am

I was told two years ago that Rebecca and Ron, Jr. were getting a divorce and thru legal maneuvering, she wound up with the entire Emmons Guitar Company...her father is apparently a high-powered lawyer. Well, apparently they are still together, but if the aforementioned is true, Ron, Jr. is just a paid grunt doing all the work for the 'new owner'. I cannot and will not vouch for the accuracy of this info, but it did come from a very reliable source. I won't get involved in a rumor mill scenario, but it was conveyed to me that Ron, Jr. actually quit building guitars for a duration of time to allow the dust to settle on the marriage/divorce scene. That may or may not account for the so-called delays in deliveries of new units to the market. But when you have s---head lawyers involved in most anything, just about anything is possible. If that's the case here, all of this is understandable.
Re: cast endplates instead of machined endplates, all Emmons endplates are machined after the casting process. Does that clear things up? I doubt it. There is additional stock intentionally left on endplate castings to allow for final dimensions to be cut into/onto them for a good and accurate fit with their respective cabinets. I have cut many a casting to spec for Emmons guitars to provide this accurate fit. They're designed that way. If the castings are pitted, I would question the material being used for them. All the Almag 35 castings I ever machined were free of pits and holes and came from a foundry in Chattanooga TN. Can't vouch for where the aforementioned castings came from.
Again, I won't get involved in the rumor mill thing. Noel Anstead has had orders for his Anapeg guitars 5 and 6 years out in front, so I wouldn't be so quick to take Emmons to task for a long delivery date without knowing WHY that is. But IF a specific date was given and it fell by the wayside many months ago, and the only excuse given was that Rebecca knocked the damned guitar off the bench and cracked it, I'd question the integrity of ANYONE who 'accidentally' knocks a guitar off of a bench. I didn't know that could happen in the real world.
By their cashing and acceptance of your checks, there is an implied contractual agreement even if there was no 'paper' to confirm it. 'Intent' is what the courts would look at here, not a written contract. If there was OFFER and ACCEPTANCE, then there is a contract, implied or otherwise. True, verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on (old joke, but relevant nonetheless),but the very cashing of your check, interstate or not, is still offer and acceptance, and intent is paramount. You intended to buy a guitar, they said they would build it and deliver it in so many weeks. They failed to live up to their end of the agreement, but never notified you of the 'changes' on their end until you pressed them for 'performance' of the contract. That speaks a lot about 'intent'.
I wish you well. This should resolve amicably over the long haul. I hate to see all the bad ink about a once-proud cornerstone of the industry...that's very distressing.
Situations like this make one appreciate even more the incredible reputations of builders like Bill Rudolph, Roy Thomas, Paul Franklin, Sr., Gene Fields, the late Zane Beck, and a long list of others I haven't included...they know who they are, and so do we. These people have built their businesses on reliability and personal integrity,and their words alone are iron-clad contracts. They worked hard to establish this sort of reputation and they deserve a real vote of confidence from those of us who recognize it and appreciate it. We, as the steel guitar community, should never take this personal integrity for granted, but should cherish it and embrace it.
PRR

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 9 Oct 2008 3:52 am

That statement there is as good as it gets, Well said paul!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 9 Oct 2008 3:56 am

Bottom line, as fine a guitar as a Williams, Zum, Franklin, GFI, Jackson, Carter, or whoever else builds, Charles ordered an EMMONS. I happen to like Emmons guitars, even though I've got a Carter. This is Emmons country around here, and what steel guitar builder isn't still chasing the push-pull tone, even though Emmons has long since stopped building them. I don't believe that Emmons is even a member here. And Charles, when you get that new puppy, can we PLEASE see some pictures?

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 9 Oct 2008 4:45 am

They are not the only ones. Try getting MSA to return a call, even to a player who owns 4 recent MSA instruments and wants to spend MORE money! (And they claim to be a "real" technology company!)

For the most part this "Ma and Pa" industry we love is staffed by sincere, helpful people anxious to please. There are many fine instrument in the marketplace. I, for one, intend to quit rewarding the companies that treat their customers with indifference punctuated by occasional B.S.!!! And I don't care whose venerable name is on the box!

Buy a Zum! They are better anyway, and there was a nice one on the Forum for weeks. And, by the way, Bruce is honest, delivers when he says he will or sooner, and he is helpful!

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 9 Oct 2008 5:24 am

I Will say this It may Take a Long Time Too Get a Emmons or a Zum But It Dont Take Long To sell a Used one.

Bill Mayville · Post by **Bill Mayville** » 9 Oct 2008 5:42 am

After Paying up front like a dummy,my 6 month D-10
took 18 months.After 8 months I switched to lacquer,Peacock Blue. Most of the same Excuses apply here also. Except.I gave up,asked for a refund. No reply.I was really going to go back there. My wife started to call,once a week. Each week Ron.would come to the phone.I hate to say this ,but his wife is almost a bigger liar than he is.
Not only did the guitar come with the end plates
not finished at all like the first one I bought twenty years ago.it came green.Said his wife did it four times to get the color right.
There is a place in Nashville that said there collecting money for guitars they will never produce,or something like that. I was so mad at them at the time,because I thought I would never get the guitar. It was a fine instrument.Coming the wrong color and taking so long,I did not mind selling it.We almost were begging him to finish the guitar.
Maybe not almost. I hope they read this.!!I am wishing they would fold it up.
Sorry about the long story.First and last time I will Mention emmons.Yes. I have eliminated the capital E.
Bill

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 9 Oct 2008 6:37 am

Paul... good points... but Emmoms would not need to dispute receiving the funds nor wanting to fulfill the order. What's the status on a delivery date. Is there a law that addresses this... especially with no contract... and a possible argument that parts or labor are the holdup? I am playing devils advocate here.

Also... as I mentioned before, lawyers are best used prior to a lawsuit... as in a PRENUMP which if Ron had, would have left him with his dads company.

when you have s---head lawyers involved in most anything, just about anything is possible.

PS: We do have some lawyers as members here :-) For their sake I'll state that not all lawyers belong at the bottom of the ocean... especially those that play PSG <g>.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 9 Oct 2008 6:51 am

a company's word, like a person's, is a bond
if it is'nt upheld, well, there goes the reputation
i waited a year & a half for my Zum & Bruce came up solid
i had a Zum to pick on while he built it

now had i wanted an Emmons, i would have gotten one right here from a fo'bro or a reputated steel dealer.
as a last resort, i would have popped in on Erv round Christmas

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Oct 2008 8:20 am

James Morehead wrote:
Ford Cole wrote:Hey Charles..I'm in the same boat with a builder in Texas. Very frustrating!
This is not very fair to the several fine Texas Steel guitar builders doing a fine job, who are NOT at fault. You should maybe at least say who it isn't?

For those who want complete "cut through the chase" honesty, you need to call Rains Steel Guitars in Fort Worth Texas. Gary Carpenter is THE man to deal with. They guarantee 30 days in your hands, after you place your order. And these guitars are fast being "discovered" as very high quality eye appealing steel guitars, with "unrivaled sustain for days", tone to die for!!

It ain't Rains that Ford refered to. Thanx for the clarification, Ford.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 9 Oct 2008 9:49 am

If I remember correctly, it took Steve "Rabbit" Easter a year, or maybe a little more to get his. If you want to listen to Steve play, just go to the Emmons web-site & enjoy.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 9 Oct 2008 9:58 am

[quote="Ernie Pollock"]I remember back in the 90's, I bought a used guitar from a builder in Tn, At the time of purchase, I put a deposit on a used Emmons, that was supposed to have been converted to an 'all pull' system, I think the deposit was two or three hundred dollars. In the mean time, after not a word from the company, I called, only to find out that the first guy had sold the company, and the guy who bought it gave me a big song & dance about how he would honor that order?? that never happened. I just lost that money. One of those guys is building guitars again, but I know better than to send him a deposit!!

Ernie that's not right,If he's back in business he needs to make it up to you with interest!

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 9 Oct 2008 11:58 am

I don't have any comment about the operation at Emmons. I have owned five of them. I always bought
mine used, so that circumvented the problems that are discussed above. It is worth mentioning again
that Buddy Emmons has not had any connection with the company for years. This is old news to most of
us, but there are probably some new members that
make an association between the two.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 9 Oct 2008 5:43 pm

It seems like all these Steel guitar builders, start out very well and very on time, but as the years roll by and reputation grows, they become very popular and they cant keep up.
Instead of being hohnest, and saying that there is a 3 year wait, in which case most likely, you will go somewhere else, they take your deposit which locks you in to a contract basically, where they have your deposit, and now they can put you on a back burner.
This happens in all kinds of buissness unfortunatly, and it is not always intentional, but its their duty to be very up front about that, and not blow smoke up your ---.
I'm done venting!

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 9 Oct 2008 7:41 pm

Butt?

Mike Christensen · Post by **Mike Christensen** » 9 Oct 2008 8:33 pm

On page one of this thread,Jeff Hyman recomended sending an old guitar to Coop. As far as I am concerned this is poor advice. Mine has been there for 16 months.At least one has been received after mine and finished and I know for a fact there are others who are less than satisfied with his service.Since June of this summer when I asked him how it was coming it has always been,"well I got your pedal bar back. Three times!!! Three weeks ago it was,"well I got your pedals on your pedal bar and got the new decal on it". There are parts problems,shipper problems,Buffer problems,Machinist problems,you name it.This was also very foolishly paid for in advance. I guess it will be fine when he does get it done but it might be my grand daughter who gets the thing not me the way its going. I know Coop is a god around here but there are ALWAYS two sides to everything. I don't want to hear any thing about a one man show. I've heard that before and it isn't true. He designs the parts. He doesn't make em or polish em. Nuff said! I'm Pi%$#* off too. Happy Trails Mike C.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 9 Oct 2008 9:07 pm

Jeff - Please note that I said s---head lawyers in my prior post. That is not to imply that ALL lawyers are s---heads. We both know that's not factual, but there are a bunch of them out there and they are definitely 'bottom-feeders' who don't care about right and wrong...only the almighty buck. They're the ones who will take on a case they know is not win-able in a court of law just to collect a fee. My statement doesn't apply to those who truly do respect the words of law and truly do advise their clients in a conscientious manner. The bottom-feeders who have given the legal profession a bad name, be damned. If a lawyer is hired to 'run interference' for a client instead of doing what is morally right, where is the justice and the righteousness in that? Using the law to 'skirt' the law is a reprehensible practice, but there are those who do this, and that is precisely the bunch I was referring to.
PRR

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 10 Oct 2008 1:39 am

Paul,

Everything you mention is OK on the lawyer issue. Like I said, I've been on all sides of the fence. Your feelings about lawyers is the norm, mine were playing devils advocate. Let me assure you, that my advise about using an attorney prior to needing one is money in the bank. I think what endorses your feelings is there are more lawyers then cases... so they need to find (and sometimes make up) work. There are more arguments in your favor then mine. BTW: I've never liked the other guys lawyer :-)

To hopefully wrap up the attorney issue:

1. We have attorneys that are members of this forum. Lets assume they're one of the good ones.
2. This is the PSG forum... we all (especially me) need to try and stay focused on PSG.

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 10 Oct 2008 1:55 am

On page one of this thread,Jeff Hyman recomended sending an old guitar to Coop. As far as I am concerned this is poor advice. Mine has been there for 16 months.

Mike,

IMHO, I think it's extremely important that in this small PSG world we live in that all feedback be vented. As with Emmons, or anyone, it's best to hear both sides of any story... weither good or bad, right or wrong, truth or lie. I've only read good things about Coop. Spoke to him on the phone last week. Awaiting a SHO~BUD volumn pedal I just bought. Seen his fabulous work posted here on the forum. This pedal purchase is my first transaction with John. It would be a good thing if John posted a reply to your statement. Folks should be accountable for their actions as well as defend their reputation.

No waiting for parts

I am under the impression Coop makes everything in his own shop... thus my statement. If I'm wrong here, please accept my apology. I still want to give my friend Coop the benefit-of-doubt and await his reply. If he addresses the 16 month issue would sure help clear things up for all parties.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 10 Oct 2008 4:17 am

Regarding John Coop's work........

I recently picked up my totally rebuilt LDG from John. In fact, I will use it for the first time tonight on a job.

This is the work he performed to the guitar:

- Replaced the entire undercarriage with his parts.
- Replaced the changer with his modified changer.
- Replaced the tuners with Grover 18:1's.
- Replaced the pedal bar brackets with his brackets.
- Polished the endplates, pedals and pedal bar.
- Replaced the pedal rods with his custom rods.
- Installed and wired a coil-tapped Wallace.
- Rebuilt the pedal bar.
- Strung and set-up the guitar after completion.

To accomplish that on a simple single-neck LDG John had my guitar approximately 4 months. I personally saw doublenecks that he was working on and, given a C6th undercarriage, there is no question that the time required would easily be twofold.

John's business is a one-man show. He does contract out polishing and plating. My experience with John Coop was without complaint. His work is, in a word, outstanding.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 10 Oct 2008 5:19 am

10-8-08

Dear Steel Guitar Community,

A friend upset about what was being said on the Steel Guitar Forum about Emmons Guitar Co contacted us earlier this afternoon. The Steel Guitar Forum is very insightful. However, we caution that the information is not always correct. I deeply apologize to all of our customers, current and past for the misleading information. Sometimes we all get wrapped up into the details of day to day and we forget the most important family, friends, and yes our customers. For most, we have taken in as family. We have opened our home to strangers for a place to stay while visiting the factory. We come in after hours to do repair work or meet our customers because they are passing through town. For those who actually know us, know that we go far out of the way to meet their needs. It is not always easy working 6 days a week and averaging 18 hrs a day. Our Customers are the most important. Our Customers are not dependent on us we are dependent on them. Our Customers are doing us a favor by giving us the opportunity to serve them. No company in the world is 100% efficient. We can only adapt and make the needed changes and move on.

Sincerely,

Ron Lashley Jr., president

Rebecca Lashley

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 10 Oct 2008 5:46 am

It does not matter what any one says, or how often they say it, the facts remain the same.

(paraphrased here from something said years ago on this forum, by a very famous steel guitar player.)

I found it then (and now) to be one of the most poignant statements I ever heard mortal man say.

Alan James · Post by **Alan James** » 10 Oct 2008 6:04 am

As one builder told me, everyone makes mistakes, how you handle the mistake is the what separates the great companies from the rest of the pack.

Is the apology for the Lashleys' misleading information or the forum's misleading information?

The post does not seem to address Charles Dempsey's specific problems but does point out that the Lashleys are nice people.

What am I missing here?

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 10 Oct 2008 6:17 am

"Judge not lest ye be judged also"; isn't this in the New Testament? Is there no room for forgiveness for any mistake? I am really surprised and very disappointed.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Send the guitar or the money.

Re: same here...

Williams Gutiar

Emmons, Zum

Emmons the liar shop

Re: same here...

Re: Not just Emmons!!

FYI Emmons Guitar Company