Scale question

[Jim Lawler]

Trying to learn a little music theory and I have a question. Using the C Major scale as an example ( C,D,E,F,G,A,B, and C )with "C" being the root, "A" being the sixth note and "B" being the seventh, what is meant by the term ninth and thirteenth. Are these octaves of "D" and "A" ???

[Earnest Bovine]

Using the C Major scale as an example ( C,D,E,F,G,A,B, and C )with "C" being the root, "A" being the sixth note and "B" being the seventh, what is meant by the term ninth and thirteenth. Are these octaves of "D" and "A" ???

Yes.

"Ninth" can mean an interval or a chord.

[Ronnie Boettcher]

OK, in a scale C D E F G A B C, The C is the root, or the key. The fourth is F, the fifth is G. Count from the first C, and the eighth is the higher C. The next note is D, which is the "ninth". If you play a chord using the C-E-G-C-D, you played a C major9th chord. Just like you play a 7th, which is C-E-G-B, that is a C major7th. Just music theory. C to C is numbered 1through 8. It is the same in any key, using the root as number 1.

[C Dixon]

Ronnie is correct. Just as their is more than one E note on your E string (and so on) there is more than just C to C. Watch:

[tab]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 16 18 19

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G, ETC[/tab]

c.

[Jeff Valentine]

This is just to add to the good info already provided by everyone else. Chords are usually built in 3rds. If you see the letter only, like "C", it means (C-E-G). When you refer to the major scale it's notes 1,3,5. If you see CM7, CMa7, CMaj7 or C with a triangle next to it, it means C major 7. Those all mean the same thing. That's (C-E-G-B). It's important to know that a C7 chord isn't the same thing. That actually means (C-E-G-Bb). Anytime you see a C7, C9, C11, or C13 it has the Bb rather than the B natural. Those chords are called dominant chords, and have a flatted 7th.

-Jeff

[Ben Hoare]

[quote="Jeff Valentine"]This is just to add to the good info already provided by everyone else. Chords are usually built in 3rds. If you see the letter only, like "C", it means (C-E-G). When you refer to the major scale it's notes 1,3,5. If you see CM7, CMa7, CMaj7 or C with a triangle next to it, it means C major 7. Those all mean the same thing. That's (C-E-G-B). It's important to know that a C7 chord isn't the same thing. That actually means (C-E-G-Bb). Anytime you see a C7, C9, C11, or C13 it has the Bb rather than the B natural. Those chords are called dominant chords, and have a flatted 7th.

-Jeff[/quote
something else to investigate is that some chords with extensions may be described in a couple of ways for example..
Altered,Augmented,sus,1/2 diminished,O or diminished etc or the number description #5#9 b5b9 etc

[John Bechtel]

A Chord containing a *b7 plus a *6 qualifies as a 13th chord, where I come from; even if it doesn't contain the **9th!
B~*D~E~G#~B~*C#~E~G# = E13
E~*D~**F#~G#~B~*C#~E~G# = E9/13
(Whatever planet that is!)

[Bo Legg]

Actually it's 2 scales bumped together with the first scale in the Mode your playing in and the 2nd scale is the major scale of the tonic of the Mode.
Example: C Dorian + C Major. Build the chords by starting on the tonic and go every other note etc..

C--D-Eb--F--G--A-Bb--C--D --E -F - -G - - A --B-C
1--2-b3--4--5--6-b7--8--9--10-11--12--13
1----b3------5----b7------9------11-------13

[Ronnie Boettcher]

I also want to add, and hope not confuse you, that any chord you play, can be in one of 3 versions. Lets talk Cmaj again. It can be played C-E-G, OR E-G-C, OR G-C-E. And that goes for any key, with their respectful notes. (like the key of G. it is G-B-D, B-D-G, or D-G-B.) If you are playing just a 2 note chord, it is the 1 and 3, or the 1 and 5, of that chord, in most cases. Could be the 3 and 5. When you play the 1,3,5, and mash your AB pedals down, you go into the IV chord and it is the 5-1-3 of that chord. ( it still is the IV chord, but in the 5th position, musically). Then 2 frets up, with AB mashed, it is the V chord, 5th position.

[Jim Lawler]

Thanks for all the help guys. You have really cleared up a lot of my confusion. I am studying a C6th course and this will be a great benefit, especially about a C7th and a C Maj 7 being two entirely different chords. Thanks again.

[C Dixon]

Jim,

The following may add some light on "7ths".

Much of the music world calls C E G Bb, "C7". But some in the world such as Britain call that "C flat 7". They then call C E G B "C seventh". We of course call that Cmaj7th

I believe they are correct. Here is why. There is NO Bb in the key of C, BUT there is a B. AND it is the 7th tone in the key of C. Which we call Cmaj7th.

As it was explained to me years ago. What is happening when we in the West play a C7th in the Key of C; we are in essence, changing keys to the Key of F temporarily; since the Key of F actually contains one flat in its scale; and what do ya suppose that flat note is? It is Bb! Which just happens to be THE "signature" note of the Key of F. And what distinguishes it in sheet music as to what key it is.

Just like there is NO F in the Key of G, But there IS an F#. In fact the Key of G has ONLY one sharp note and that note is F#. So when we flat it to F (G7th western style) and add the G B D, we are changing the key to C temporarily, in essence. Then sliding into D7th sharps that F to F# and we can easily get back to G, which is what musical theory 101 is all about.

And what makes all kinds of scales come alive, once you get the basics down. And ya know what notes constitutes any given scale. And what happens WHEN ever we shift one or more notes away from their scale notes.

And now ya know "the rest of the story".

Of even greater importance is: some players are soooooo gifted with a musical "ear", they HEAR this, without a clue as to what a note of music is. I admire this in those who have this gift from Jesus. Because they are truly blessed beyond my ability to convey. Praise His holy name.

It gets simpler, the more ya learn about it. But then that is true of anything isn't it?

c.

[David Doggett]

Okay, here's another take on this "7th" question, remembered from simple theory from grammar school piano lessons. Forget about C7 in the key of C (the I7 is a very uncommon chord). Think about G7 in the key of C. The main chords in a key are the tonic, the subdominant fourth, and the dominant fifth. In the key of C that is the chords C, F and G. As often as not, the V (G) chord is played as the 7th, thus, the dominant 7th. The 7th of G7 is F, which is in the C scale. Thus, the most common 7th chord in western music is the V7, or the dominant 7th. It is a 7th chord that can be made entirely from the diatonic scale, no chromatics required, and it is the only 7th chord that can be made that way. The dominant 7th is the model for all 7th chords. Therefore, chords with a 7th a whole step below the upper root are called dominant 7th chords, although technically only the V7 is THE dominant 7th chord.

But that presents a dilema when talking about a 7th chord other than the dominant 7th (the V7). Generally the notes in a chord are not numbered after their degree in the key signature scale, but rather their degree in the scale of the root of the chord. From that standpoint, the major scale 7th is a half-step below the root. Therefore, it is called a major 7th, to differentiate it from the 7th used in the dominant 7th chord. The dominant 7th note is also called a minor 7th. It is a half-step below the major 7th, just as the minor 3rd is a half-step below the major 3rd interval. Also, since it is a half-step below the major 7th, it can be called a flat 7.

This seems to explain why the diatonic major scale 7th is called a major 7th, and the note a half-step lower is called the dominant 7th, minor 7th, or flat 7. And because it is much more common that the major 7th, it is assumed when anyone says merely "7th."

[David Doggett]

In terms of numbering the other intervals, they are most commonly added to a 7th chord. So, once a 7th is in the chord, the other numbers are added above the 7th. Thus, a 6th in a chord without a 7th is called a 6th, but in a chord with a 7th is called a 13th. Likewise, the 2 added to a 7th chord is called a 9th. In a chord without a 7th, it is called "add 2" (or sus 2). This doesn't mean you always have to play a 7th in a 9th or 13th chord. Someone else in the group is usually playing the 7th, so you can play the 9th (or 13th) and any other notes in the chord, with or without the 7th, and it is still a 9th chord (or 13th).

[Charlie McDonald]

I think David has the right take.

Generally the notes in a chord are not numbered after their degree in the key signature scale, but rather their degree in the scale of the root of the chord. From that standpoint, the major scale 7th is a half-step below the root. Therefore, it is called a major 7th, to differentiate it from the 7th used in the dominant 7th chord. The dominant 7th note is also called a minor 7th. It is a half-step below the major 7th, just as the minor 3rd is a half-step below the major 3rd interval. Also, since it is a half-step below the major 7th, it can be called a flat 7....
And because it is much more common that the major 7th, it is assumed when anyone says merely "7th."

And as much as I'd like to agree with Carl, and further see the M7 become the dominant 7th, it won't happen, and it's just as well.
Band terminology rules, and what's dominant dominates.

[Don Drummer]

To make things simple for my guitar students I tell them that a 7th chord includes a note that is two frets lowere than its' name. G7 has an F, D7 has a C, E7th has a D...