There are many ways to tune a musical instrument. And this forum has prorbably covered more on this subject than possibly any other medium ever.
In my tenure as a home player (mostly), for over 60 yrs, I have only used 5 tuners; a tuning fork, a spanish guitar pitch pipe, a harmonica, a Korg tuner purchased from Tom Bradshaw 30 yrs ago, and finally a Concertina tuner I bought from Emmons about 20 or so years ago.
Since I tune mostly using harmonics* now (except for a reference E note), I have not sought the latest and greatest in this endeavor. It has served me pretty well.
But in St. Louis this year, I am going to really take a good look at the Peterson strobe tuner made for the steel guitar. I have heard many great things about it.
Also, Paul Warnik (who I understand is the SG link between player and the Peterson folks) and I, have become close friends of late; thru our mutual admiration for Letritia Kandle, covered exstensively in another thread.
However, I have been taking a very close look at another strobe tuner as well. It's 2 and 1/2 times as expensive as the Peterson. But I would pay that much IF I felt I could justify it.
Is there anyone out there that has used this gold plated tinker toy?
I am particularly interested (and I spoke to Paul about this) in what ALL tuners I have messed with at shows experience. And that is; the difficulty in a tuner holding steady between the attack of the string when it is first picked versus when the note decays AFTER it begins to sustain.
I do not know about the Peterson, but it does appear at least from the link video, that the PST-4 lives up to its specs and features, that it has truly gotten around this problem. I find a "quiverying needle (or display) not in keeping with modern technology, EVEN though it is agreed that the tuner is ONLY showing WHAT the string is doing.
However, if this can be smoothed out and the display centers on the "medium" fundamental note, through the use of advanced state of the art "filters", then so much the better.
The PST-4 is said to be rock solid even on the lowest note of a piano. If this is true, that is incredible. And if it can do that, EVEN the 10th string A note (with the 8th pedal on the C neck) would be a pleasure to tune; ONCE one gets it in tune first and then programs the "offset" into the tuner.
IF the Peterson can do this, I will then strongly consider purchasing the Peterson. On the other hand if the display shows erratic behavior the instant of the picked string and again as the note decays just before it stops ringing, then I shall strongly consider the PST-4.
I am a stickler for perfection. So much so, that cost is generally a low priority if there is an option of getting the very best, unless of course it would be too far outside my budget.
Incidently, while you are visiting that website, click on "Home" then "User Comments" and read Skip Con's post. This was copied from a long ago thread on the SGF.
Not sure Skip still posts or not.
I welcome any and all comments. They WILL help me to decide on which one I am going to purchase.
My new Excel has soooooo many changes; and even more are coming after I install my switchovers when I get home. I need something that is faster, rock solid, and more accurate than these tired ole 76 yr old ears.
For whatever it's worth the new Excel has a jack especially for plugging in a tuner. There is also a switch on the guitar that I am going to modify so it will work like thus:
1. PU goes straight to amp.
2. PU goes to the amp AND the tuner.
3. PU goes straight to tuner bypassing amp.
carl
* There are several notes which I can't use harmonics. For it would destroy the "tension" so necessary on dom7ths, dims, and 9ths etc.
I'm glad you brought this up. I have been using the Peterson StonoFlip tuner since it made it's debut, mostly on the road and have a few comments
First, I love the Newman tuning is built in and makes checking pitch extremely easy and quick which is very important to me. I also like you can save custom tuning
That said, this tuner is NOT a stage tuner meaning it won't kill your amp when in use, which to me is a major drawback. No tuning during songs, no good.
Second, I found that it is an extremely noisy tuner, adding a hiss to my signal chain. I had to pull it out and only plug it in when I have to tune. I even wrote the company asking about this and got a terse response stating I should just deal with it or buy one of their other tuners.
Lastly, a recent issue I have had ( on a tour I'm on now) is that the tuner gets "confused" by other instruments that might be playing and cannot find the proper pitch, even when plugged in. At one show I had to grab the bass players Boss tuner as the Peterson flat out failed to work. This caused a stop to the show, with 500 folks waiting. Unacceptible needless to say.
Any player who mostly plays at home, this tuner would work just fine. But if you are a player who plays live a lot, I feel money would be better spent on a proper stage tuner that does not affect tone.
Maybe I just have a dud, but I have been very dissapointed by this tuner. Just my 2 cents
I have used the Stroboflip for as long as it had been available and have had not one problem with it on stage or in the studio.
Both of my rigs have tuner out capabilities (mostly I am using a Revelation based rig) so the tuner is always connected to the guitar through the tuner out jack on either the Rev or the Steel King, so there is no hiss, no loss of signal path and I can tune under the noisiest enviroments, even with my volume pedal completely off (or for that matter, with the Rev on standby).
It is never 'confused' with other instruments playing. I can tune perfectly with the stage volume roaring.
Jay I would suggest that you do not have the optimum stage rig if you are having the tuner problems you suggest. One other option that I have used is taking a line directly from my volume pedal (the second of the two output jacks) directly to the tuner. While this will not provide for perfectly 'quiet' tuning, it takes the tuner out of the guitar-amp signal path.
I dig my stroboflip and everyone who I know that is using one loves it as well.
Hi Carl,
In your perfection you are on the hunt for the right tuner.
What is right tuned, in your opinion?
As far as my experience goes, there is no tuner in the world that can please my taste for the tuned note,or chord, only my own ears. And these are always wrong when it comes to the needle or led from the tuningdevice.
regards from Europe, Johan
Thanks for the candid opinions that have been expressed so far. This is precisely what I wanted. I am never swayed by "sugar coating" of anything.
As I told a roofing salesman once, "Don't show me letters you have received from your satisfied customers. Show me those from your dissatisfied customers!"
He could not believe I wanted to hear from them. But I did. And the reason is: I have found over my many long years, that most people will not say anything at all, unless they can say something nice.
Thus I guarantee you that IF I was to go and look at many a roofing job, where the customer was 100% satisfied, I would find a whole bunch of things wrong with it. AND if I was to point it out to them, they in all likelyhood would say to me, "Well it was perfect before YOU messed with it!"
But my motto is: Let me decide, by reading candid reviews of the dissatisfied customers as well as the satisfied customers. In this way I can separate the chaff from the wheat. Because in reading only the satisfied, I have found more often than not, they were simply being kind in most cases, or.....
Well whatever...
And I feel most all views on this forum about most things are pretty candid. I like that and I 'preciate and respect that.
JJ wrote:
What is right tuned, in your opinion?
100% straight up ET!!! without a single doubt in my mind. BUT......
I 'caint' stand it!
So I, like MOST PSG players, shift from that all over the musical spectrum. I tune wherever I can to harmonically pure intervals, except in what I noted at the end of my first post, when I created this thread. This shifts my "3rds" and "6ths" drastically flat of ET. And my 4ths and 5th, slightly sharp of ET.
And this works great for those incredibly and awesomely beautiful "major" and "minor" chords, but wo be, when I try to play a pretty dom7 chord, or diminished, etc, then my beautiful "3rds" goes straight to where most people are going, sadly.
But if I could go thru the horrid ear culturing that many concert musicians have, including a number of non-concert players, (particularly piano players), I would love it. The reasons for this is:
The music coming out of my amp would be WHAT our "Western form of Music" was created to be, IMO. Something that most musicians (I included) ever since have tried to defy.
Along with writing a kadzillion gobs of gibberish (in essence) of why a square peg WILL fit perfectly into a round hole. I believe we, more often than not, have been nothing but recalcitrant players who rebelliously insisted upon, "I did it MY way", whether anybody likes it or not! Or whether it is 'right' or not"
ET is mathematically provable without exception. It is "physics" provable in class 101. Since it is created and based upon the exact 12th root of the digit two. All other ways to measure it are, IMO, simply trying to prove a false doctrine. It is like what MOST modern scientists are doing, when they do NOT believe in God already, so they then try to use science to prove their thesis.
That is not only dangerous science, it is downright ridiculous, IMO.
ET is accurate to the "nth" degree, and it works and I believe it is right. It is how frets are placed on guitars; it is how marimba keys are cut; it is how a piano is tuned, (if one forgets about stretching of the octaves*); It is how the ports are placed on the body of a clarinet, flute or saxaphone, etc; and it should be the way a PSG player tunes. But most of us don't.
Now, I have me flame suit on, but you asked. I feel it incumbent upon me to answer you candidly; as I wish that from all who respond to this thread, pro but particularly con; whether I want to hear it or not.
Then I can make the best informed judgement on which tuner I should buy (assuming I get enough to make a "quorum"), or whether I should shelve the idea completely.
May Jesus bless you all without exception, whether you agree or not. I really do love you all. I mean that.
carl
* Due to the fact that pianos do NOT use the same length strings for each of the 88 keys, and its strings are of different diameters, a phenomenon exists where the higher you go from middle C, EACH octave note sounds slightly flatter to the human ear. Even though it is dead on.
Conversely: the lower you go below middle C, EACH octave note sounds sharper. Even though it is dead on.
This by the way is why many of us have such difficulty tuning the 10th string when using pedal 8 on the C6 neck. It is NOT all due to bar pressure that makes it sound sharp.
Realizing this early on, highly gifted piano "tuners" compensated for this, by deliberately (and slightly) sharpening EACH progressive octave notes above middle C; and progressively flattened (slightly) each octave notes below middle C.
So the piano player (and listener) would then perceive staight up ET across all 88 keys.
I bought a Turbo Tuner. It is made by Sonic Research, inexpensive compared to Peterson. Peterson makes a great tuner, so does Sonic Research.
The Turbo Tuner is a real strobe tuner, red leds, very easy to read. It is programable, many times over. The owner/builder is very accessible, the web site has his phone #.
I tune straight up, but have been venturing into JI territory. I sweet tuned my Carter E9, programmed the "offsets" into the tuner, but I'm too chicken to use it at a gig, so ET it is for now. The tuner is fabulous in my eyes, and has performed flawlessly for me for 3 mths. There is an old post from about a year ago that compares the Turbo Tuner to a Peterson. Good luck in your search, JimP
carl..i find lately that the less i look at a tuner the better....but what i really want to say is your excel is beautiful...very clean and simple looking for the monster that it is!
Chris, I can't wait to see it in person. Mitsuo has made a number of changes since I bought my first Excel 10 yrs ago. I am anxious to put them into use.
Here ia a picture of the bottom and right end view.
You'll never get a steel with that many pulls in tune unless you use ET.
There are indeed a lot of pulls. Starting at the bottom of the cutout in the end plate: 3L's, then 5R's, then 2 more L's, finally 2 more R's, for a total of 12 per string.
The first "Superbs" had 5 and 5. Why sooo many? There are definite reasons why so many. While it is doubtful ANY one would use all 7 raises and 5 lowers on ALL 12 strings, there is definitely a possiblility that one might use up MOST of those pulls on a given string or 2.
Also, There are some duplications that at first may seem redundant:
Check out the following copedents and note my comments under each picture:
This is the copedent that will be on the guitar when I receive it in St. Louis. On LKVL, LKR, RKR1 and RKR2, the pullrods are UNDERNEATH the crossrods. Thus no need for a reversing mechanism here.
So the top four holes on each changer finger are for "those" types of pulls both raises and lowers. In other words on any and all "right" moving knee levers, ALL pulls on those levers have their pull rods underneath the crossrods. This is an automatic reversing system without the extra parts that ALL PSG's have had to have from the onset for right moving knee levers. This can be very helpfull in a number of situations on more complex copedents.
After I get the guitar home, I will be installing "automatic" switchovers, that will "ON demand" switch what given pedals and knee levers do. This is accomplished by using a modified Old Fender volume/tone control where the tone portion is modified to operate micro switches instead, which will operate the automatic switchovers. You will see this affect more clearly in the next 6 copedents:
When the volume control is in the CENTER position, it will be just like the first copedent. A yellow led will be on in between the volume and tone controls on top of the guitar. Using colored lights is a powerful brain "wake upper". It has been used in cockpits for a long time in aviation as well as other applications.
When the tone portion of the V/T pedal is turned to the left, Pedal 4 and LKVR will be switched and perform those changes in green instead. These changes embellish E9th. The yellow light goes out, and a green LED comes on located to the left of the yellow LED above.
When the tone portion of the V/T is turned to the right, LKL1, LKVR, RKL2 and RKR2 will be switched and perform those changes in red instead. This embellishes B6th. Only a red LED comes on in this case which is located to the right of the yellow LED.
When the "HLD" lever is operated on the guitar, it manually operates a switchover and it also operates a separate crossbar which holds the E's to Eb, instead of locking LKR in position. In addition it holds the 2nd string to C# to emulate Buddy's "D" note on his C6 neck. Remember on a Universal everything is one fret lower. IE, B6 instead of C6. Thus D becomes C# instead.
Only a Blue LED is on in this case. This LED is located directly under the Yellow LED.
Plus, the hold operates one of the "red" switchovers that changes what LKL1 does. The reason for this is: this lever is useless when the E's are held to Eb since the changes on that lever are WAY out of tune because of JI tuning. See bottom of this post.
HLD lever operates a manual switchover which will change what LKR does. In other words, instead of LKR lowering the E's to Eb, it will in this case, pull the held E to Eb's right back up to E. Why?
So I can create E9th sounds WHILE the guitar is held in B6, if I wish. Neat huh?
Finally, by NOT "locking" LKR in the engaged position, It allows the above, but more importantly it permits the Eb's to be separately tunable. This solves a problem fromm day one on universals with a LOK lever. AND....this problem is always exacerbated IF you add any changes to the E to Eb lok, which I do as you can see.
When the HLD is engaged and the tone portion of the V/T is moved to the left, those changes in blue AND those changes in green are in affect. So only the blue LED and the Green LED light up.
When the HLD is engaged and the tone portion of the V/T is moved to the right, those changes in blue AND those changes in red are in affect. So only the Blue LED and the Red LED light.
Hopefully now, you will get a better idea of why I love this PSG soooo much.
No, Mistuo did not design this changer for me. But I believe Jesus led me to him, so I could fulfill my 45 yr dream of doing everything on a Universal PSG that D-10r's can do, without any sacrifices.
NO other PSG in the world can support the changes one can achieve on this guitar. And I am blessed and greatful that Mitsuo came up with it. It is truly a PSG of the future IMO.
Praise Jesus' holy precious name. And may He richly bless Mitsuo and all of you always.
Lastly, I do not tune to ET. I tune JI wherever I can. But I believe with every fiber of my being that ET was, is and will always be right.
But because the PSG lends itself so easily to bending the rules, most PSG players (including me) alter that to sweeten our major and minor chords. BUT to the definite detriment to many other chords such as 7ths, 9ths, dim's, aug's, etc, etc.
Carl, here's my meager contribution
the tuner you gave the link to has a easy to use/read screen which imo seems to be quite comfortable
it's quite pricey indeed
i opted for the peterson stroborack which is a bit cheaper
(i would say it is'nt as comfortable as the precision strobe)
nevertheless it's loaded w: options & tunings for most stringed instruments http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm ... =73&sub=66
the tuning read out screen is easy to use & see but i find that the options & menu screen to be quite small & a bit hard to read considering the size of the unit
that's quite a steel you are showing us there Carl
Too many knee levers and changes for me.
I like to keep it simple like Lloyd.
He never found the need for all that extra weight to carry around and neither do I.
Carl,
I'm having trouble visualising the actual mechanics of your 'switching' mechanism,
If it's not a trade secret, can you put some diagrams up ?
Be happy to. Please note the following picture:
You will have to blow this picture up to full screen to see the little WHITE "switchover" symbols. There are 7 of them:
6 electronically controlled.
1 manually controlled (the one farthest to the right).
What are they, and how do they work? Check the following picture and my comments after the picture:
This is a manual switchover designed by the late and great PSG player Mac Atcheson of Atlanta, GA, with just a small tad of input from me. He was lamenting once that he did NOT like the fact that he could not "time" the pulls on the C neck IF he had the pulls timed on the E neck of his Emmons LeGrande D-10 on RKR. And vice versa.
We talked at length and we drew a number of pictures. Several days later, he called me up and said, "come over, I got it working."
It worked, but the operating lever was crude and not esthetically appealing. I suggested that we modify the standard Emmons' "switchcraft" PU switch, so it could be the item that caused the switchover device to switch back and forth between knee levers, as it switched the PU's, by using a connecting rod between the two under the guitar, rather than above as he had made it.
He did and it worked like a charm. That got me to thinking and dreaming. Fast forward 15 yrs. I have refined this prototype and made it electronically contolled, using state of the art circuity and it will use advanced technology designed "Bi stable, latching" solenoids that have recently been developed in Japan. I understand they were designed for ATM machines.
They are very low noise also and quite small for what they can do. which is a blessing for me.
So to get an idea of how the switchovers work, see the following picture and compare it with where they fit in the first picture:
Remember this is a picture of the crude prototype. It is quite a bit different now. My hope is, I can demonstrate this at next years convention. If the Lord is willing and the creek don't rise that is.
I hope this helps you to visualize it better dear person.
Carl, here's my meager contribution
the tuner you gave the link to has a easy to use/read screen which imo seems to be quite comfortable
it's quite pricey indeed
Yes, that is one of the reason I really like it. Price is not a large consideration for me if I like something. Jesus provides a way when the cause is good, as long as we acknowledge that ALL good things come from him any way, and we always remember to thank him for our bountiful blessings.
Too many knee levers and changes for me.
I like to keep it simple like Lloyd.
He never found the need for all that extra weight to carry around and neither do I.
The Excel fully loaded as above is quite a bit lighter than an Emmons D-10 with 8 and 4.
That is a crazy amount of (what's the official term?) "stuff" under that thing.
Ya reckon that is why my uncle said to me when I was 5 yrs old, "You will NEVER turn out to be NUTHUN!"
As I recall his expression when he said it, I don't believe he was kidding.
Last night I spoke with the man that makes the PST-4. He may (I repeat 'may') be in St. Louis. I really hope he gets there. In this way I can make an A/B test to see which tuner-Peterson or his that will serve my needs in the best way.
My guitar will have many changes to keep in tune. I need something faster than trial an error using tired ole 76 yr ears.
I am leaning heavily towards the PST-4, because I love the rotating red strobes. In addition, it is my understanding now that the Peterson tuner does not have filters for preventing display "quiver" when a string is initially picked. And then quivers again, as the note begins to decay.
If this is true, and I do not know this to be a bonified fact, then I will definitely get the higher priced PST-4. On the other hand, if my understanding is not correct, then I may end up getting the Peterson.
I surely hope Jim Campbell gets to St. Louis so I can make the test.
Question:
Has anyone tried to use an Ebow and an electronic tuner together. It seems to me that would be a great combination. IE, the Ebow keeping the string sustaining as the tuner gives the precise display for as long as you wish.
This seems to me to be an advantage. What say ye?
Again, thanks to all who have posted on this thread.
Carl how do you reach the front knee levers ??? They look like they are mounted to the very front next the apron ! Your legs must be very long ! G.P.
Actually, they are quite short. I am only 5' 7" tall. From floor to knee they are shorter than normal as well.
The knee levers in those pictures are not the way they are going to be after I get it home. Mitsuo puts them where he feels they should be. And that is ok, they are very easy to change. Also, because there are 4 rails under the guitar each right knee lever can be located in one of 6 places along its croosrod.
If you will, study the following picture and then read my comments. Hopefully, you will get a better idea of how this all pans out:
Each right knee lever can be placed:
1. ON the rear side of the front rail located on the front apron of the guitar.
2. On the front side of the next rail.
3. On the rear side of that rail.
4. On the front side of the rail near the rear rail (the rear rail is hidden from view)
5.On the rear side of that rail.
6. On the front side of the rear rail.
The distance between the middle rails is about 4". Between the front rail and the next one, and between the rear rail and the one forward of it, is about 2".
This gives great latitude as to where a player wants them located front to back. Also the paddles pivot from front to back IF desired, then they are locked down. In addition every knee lever on Excel Superb models, is adjustable Left to Right. The adjustment takes seconds. And then you lock it down solid.
I will locate mine thusly:
1. RKR1 and RKL1 on the front side of the rail closest to the rear rail.
2. RKR2 and RKL2 on the front side of the rail closest to the front rail.
This will separate them (front to back) about 4", and about 2" from the front of the guitar. But I can tailor this by pivoting one or all as necessary.
I have 3 RK levers on my present Guitar. So it should not take too long to get used to 4.
I hope you are enjoying your new Emmons' LeGrande. IMO they have the 2nd best sound of any PSG ever built. The P/P has the best IMO. May Jesus bless you with your new toy dear friend.
Incidently, ALL knee lever stops on these new guitars are located in the rails. Thus the knee levers must be adjacent to either wall of any one of the rails.
