Need help deciding: Emmons or Sho-Bud?

[Justin Lee]

Okay, I've sold a few things and finally have the money I need to invest in my first PSG. I'd like to find a high-quality, great-sounding guitar that looks good, stays in tune, and will hold its value if I need to sell it down the road. From what I've seen, the models I see that tend to be most popular are the Emmons p/p & LeGrandes, and the Sho-Bud Pros, Super Pros and LDGs.

I would most likely stick with an S10 or SD10, though I would certainly consider a D10 if they are easier to sell down the road. I just don't think I would do a lot with a C6 neck except use it as a pad, though if I listen to enough Lyle Lovett and have enough beer I might change my mind.

The music I would most like to learn and would enjoy playing ranges from Buck Owens and Dwight Yoakam to Gospel and a little of the Campbell Brothers-styled Sacred Steel. If it turns out that I fall in love with the PSG I'll most likely drain my bank account and fill the music room with all sorts of models, but I would like to start with one great, versatile instrument that I wouldn't have too much trouble selling if the need arose. I mention the Emmons and Sho-Buds, but I'm open to others. I just want it to look great, have a high desirability for resale, and be a great player. That said, I've seen some Mullen that might fit the bill.

Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated. I would either buy from someone on the forum, or make another trip and buy something from Bobbe Seymour. Price range: $1500 - $2500.

Thanks and Regards,

Justin Lee

[/i]

[Danny Bates]

I would recommend starting out with the best guitar you can afford. If you buy a used guitar, you can always sell it without taking a big hit.

[richard burton]

A ZB in working order would be my choice, they're not too expensive, and have great tone

[Ken Byng]

Justin
If you are undecided, then your best option would be a visit to Bobbe's store. There you can run through the considerable gamut of what he has in stock. If you ask here on the Forum which make to go for, you will get lots of differing opinion.

Play some, hear some, see some. Bobbe will explain the pros and cons of each guitar - he will give you an opinion, but it will be an honest one based on your personal requirement. Your budget will get you something special.

[Pete Woronowski]

Justin, I would agree with Ken that the best thing to do would be visting Bobbe's store.
Being able to hear the different brands combined with his incredible knowledge of the steel gtr,features,wants and needs is a huge asset to you at this time.
I would take advantage of this no question.
Take care, Pete

[Michael Pierce]

Justin,

my first "pro" steel was a Mullen SD-10 that I bought from Herby Wallace; they are fantastic instruments and I regret to this day selling it.

There is also what appears to be a really good deal on a 2008 Derby over on the "Instruments for Sale" page. If you do a search on "Derby" you'll find lots of positive testimonials. Good luck, whatever you buy will be fun.

[Jeff Neal]

Stick with Emmons or Sho Bud. As you said the resale is very good on these guitars. They move alot quicker than others.

Remember this, Emmons and ShoBud were first. They set the example of what a steel should be. All other guitars are just someone's take on these two classics.

But please let me say that there are some fine builders making some nice steels.

The above is just my opinion.

[Justin Lee]

Good advice from everyone, and I definitely plan on visiting Bobbe's store again for a run-through. The problem is that when I'm at a guitar store looking at something I know relatively little about, I lose all objectivity. The MSA I'm likely to enjoy playing in the shop may not be the best choice when I get home and consider the resale potential.

Ultimately I'll pick the guitar that plays and feels the best, regardless of what it is. I'm sure most of you have had the experience of getting behind a great-sounding instrument and losing yourself in how it sounds when you play it. Getting great tone from an instrument means I'm far more likely to enjoy playing it on a regular basis, and that's why I don't mind spending more money on a quality instrument. It just so happens that times are tough for everyone and I can imagine a day that I might have to choose between paying my mortgage and keeping all of my instruments. And while I pray that day never comes, I'd like to hope I had purchased an instrument that I wouldn't have much difficulty selling if I needed the money.

That said, it sounds like I can't really go wrong with most any pro-level Sho-Bud or Emmons. If these guitars are desirable after thirty or forty years, then they stand a great chance of being just as desirable a few years down the road, especially if I get one at close to market value.

What I still don't know, though it may be buried elsewhere on the forum, is what the tone difference is between an Emmons and a Sho-Bud, at least in a general sense. I've heard clips of the Emmons p/p on YouTube, and can vaguely describe it as having a more pronounced midrange than other PSGs I've heard, similar to hearing a well-intonated Telecaster played with the bridge pickup in the high register - This in comparison to the tonality of a Strat or Les Paul. Those Emmons sounds great, especially when I hear Bobbe playing one, but I wonder if that sound works as well for gospel and rock as well as it does for country music?

And speaking of Emmons, what about the Legrandes? My main apprehension of getting a p/p is the complexity. I'm sure its not a big deal once you get the hang of it, but I live in Atlanta, and don't know if we have a good p/p tech. I would hate to have to drive the thing to Nashville if I needed to change the strings. The LeGrandes look just as nice and seem to be all-pull. How do they sound compared to the p/p? If the difference is night and day, and the p/p is worth it, then okay. I don't mind flailing around a bit until I learn how to tune the thing.

As for Sho-Buds, I haven't heard enough of them to characterize the sound, and whether they might be more versatile than the Emmons for different musical styles. Also, I've heard to avoid the pot metal ones and look for the ones with round crossbars and gumby headstocks (thanks Ricky!). But which ones are those?

I don't have a huge music collection, so I don't have a wide lexicon of steel guitar music to draw from when trying to target the ultimate PSG tone. YouTube and computer speakers are nice, but fall a little short in audio quality, like trying to appreciate fine art when viewed on a camera phone. That said, here's an embarrassingly short list of PSG songs I've enjoyed. Perhaps some of you can tell me which instruments these were played on, and that might help me to narrow my focus.

They are:

1) Teach your children - Crosby, Stills & Nash
2) Together Again - Buck Owens
3) Buckaroo - Buck Owens
4) I Want You to Want Me - Dwight Yoakam
5) Most anything else by Dwight Yoakam
6) Most anything else by Buck Owens
7) Most anything by Lyle Lovett
Most anything by Ernest Tubb

I tend to have little patience when confronted with people who over-intellectualize a decision that can't be made until they actually confront and experience the items in question, and I realize I'm doing the same thing. But I live a good few hours from Bobbe's shop and can't make the trip for a few days, so really, what else is there for me to do except ponder these questions? And who else would possibly tolerate my asking them except you fine people? Even my gearhead friends, my enablers of questionable purchases, look at me doe-eyed when I talk about PSGs. Lap steels are okay, but something with pedals, rods and more than six strings is something from another planet. They look at me like I've announced I want to take up the bagpipes or learn tantric massage or transcendental masturbation...

Maybe you've been there. If not, count yourself lucky to live among understanding people...

In the mean time, any thoughts you guys have on the Sho-Bud and Emmons tonalities would be appreciated.

Thanks again,

Justin

[Brett Day]

If you were lookin' for another guitar besides an Emmons or Sho-Bud, GFI makes great guitars too.My first steel was a 1974 student model Emmons, but I'm now playin' a GFI Ultra D-10.

Brett

[Jon Light]

1,2--ZB---Jerry Garcia & Tom Brumley
not sure which steeler was around for Buckaroo.
4--that's Gary Morse and I believe (pretty sure) he plays a Sho-Bud

Brumley played earlier Yoakum sessions but I don't know what guitar he used. Morse did a lot of more recent stuff.

Buck has had some great steelers. Earliest would be Ralph Mooney on his Fender steel and that's a pretty unmistakable sound.

Buck Reid works with Lovett. Just a guess--JCH?



To the overall question---no other steels will have the resale value of an older Emmons or a Bud. ZB's have seen some price appreciation over the last couple of years.
This is not a comment on the quality of newer steels---just the reality of the economics of vintage stuff combined with the special tonal qualities of these older steels. If this thread runs long enough you will see people touting all of their favorite modern guitars. There are many many great horns being made today.
There are many different Sho-Buds. You need to do your homework to learn which are more desirable than others and why. Emmons has fewer quirks. You've got your push pull and your all pull. The pp is more demanding in terms of setup and maintenance. ZB's are quite demanding---not a reflection on their quality. But they need to be serviced by someone who knows ZBs.

Just some general comments.....

[C Dixon]

You can shop guitars until you are silly. And you can get so confused you will not know which end is up.

You will probably not go wrong in seeking a new or used Emmons or Sho Bud. From there take your pick. The reason I am high on these two highly sought after guitars is because they BOTH were created, designed and built using Buddy Emmons' input.

It doth NOT get any better than that.

That is not to say that there are not other fine PSG's out there. Because there are.

I would not recommend and Emmons' P/P. Because mechanically it is flawed in trying to deliver today's modern copedents (pedal and knee lever changes).

Another problem is: there is a lot of junk out there also, and I mean pure junk. And Pedal Steels that simply cannot cut today's needs in what is played now.

One of these is the Sho-Bud maverick. One knee lever and no way to add more is a step back in time. Like trying to use a horse and Buggy on a freeway. Also, "you GET what you pay for" is as true as it was the first time it was spoken.

A junk musical instrument will tie you up in knots. If you cannot afford a quality professional PSG, do NOT buy anything. You will have enough worries and frustrations trying to master a good one. You do NOT need for a PSG to fight you every step of the way.

Make sure if you buy a used PSG, it is in mint or near mint condition. Failure to abide this can lead to disaster. Please do not fail to heed this dear person.

Unlike many, I always buy new. But you are you. And that may be differnt with you.

I agree with those who suggest you go to a place where you can try them out.

Jerry Byrd once said this;

"When you sit down to a musical instrument and immediately it says to you, [Let's me and you make music], BUY IT!"

I could not agree more. And if it doesn't, it just may not be right for you.

May Jesus lead you into what is right for you Justin, and if you pray to Him about this, there is NOTHING greater. I promise you. And if you don't I would highly recommend it.

carl

[David Nugent]

If you would really like to sample practically every brand of steel manufactured past and present, my vote goes to Billy Cooper's in Orange Va. A check of his website should confirm this and you could not deal with nicer people than the Coopers. Also, at any given time he routinely has many more guitars in stock than are listed on his site.

[Chris LeDrew]

Justin,

Taking into consideration all you said in your first post, I think a Sho~Bud Pro 1 would be a good choice for you. You can usually get a 3+4 for around $1,600. They are lightweight, sound great, and have undercarriages that are easy to figure out. As much as the Emmons PP is a wonderful sounding instrument, the undercarriage does require some expertise to maintain. You could be chasing your tail instead of practicing, which is not worth it in the long run. If I was in your position, I'd be looking for a Pro 1 with at least 3+3. I believe Erv has one in the buy/sell for $1,600 right now. It is a newer-type model with 3+4. Some players have preferences for certain eras of 'Buds, but I've owned Pro 1's from the 70's and 80's and they all sound good. They hold their resale value as well.

I play a Jackson Blackjack which I find is the modern equivalent of a Pro 1. They are made by the same makers of Sho~Bud, the Jackson family. The customer service is outstanding, and you're getting a brand new guitar with company support. They go for under $2,000 new. But if you're trying to decide exclusively between Sho~Bud and Emmons, your safer bet is the Pro 1.

Have fun!

[David Doggett]

My honest advice for the amount of money you are talking about would be not to focus on older pedal steels like old Sho-Buds and Emmons push/pulls (I have one of each, but don’t play them as my main instrument). They tend to be project guitars for experienced players who know what they want, and know how to do the refurbishing, or have the money to pay someone else to do it. If you can get one for your price range, it probably needs some work, and that could double the price and require shipping it somewhere. If one of those has been refurbished and brought up to a modern copedent and playability, you probably can’t afford it – if you can, go for it.

For your price range I would look for a used pro model made from the ‘80s on (what I consider recent models), from any of the dozen or so manufacturers still in business (manufacturers list). One of these might not appreciate in value the way an old Emmons or Bud might; but you will almost always be able to sell it for about the same thing you paid for it – which is pretty remarkable for such a mechanical device. Provided one of these has everything in good working order, and has a reasonably standard copedent that wont require you to make a bunch of changes with hard-to-find parts, it will be plenty good enough for you to learn on and play professionally for a few years, or a lifetime. During the next few years, while you are learning, you will hopefully get to know some other steelers in your area, go to some regional shows and jams, and maybe visit a store or two. Eventually you will become knowledgeable of the tonal and playability differences, or lack thereof, between the different brands and models. And of course, we are visual creatures – looks are important.

For what you want, I would get an S10 E9, with 3 or 4 pedals, 4 or 5 levers. If you have the money, and want to deal with a bigger, heavier body, then get a D10 and find out what C6 is like. For basic Western swing style, it can be played more like a lap steel, with less fancy pedal and knee work, and fewer out of chord strings to skip, and so can be easier than E9. Myself, I have never seen the point of a big, heavy double-wide body without the musical benefit of the 6th neck. Believe me, a 6th neck is a lot of fun, and very easy at the most basic level. And it can give your playing some variety – both for your own interest, and the listening pleasure of others. Many of us solve the size and weight problem with an S12 universal. But even I would not advise that much guitar for a beginner unless you have a good hands-on uni teacher.

For the recent, name brand models I am talking about, there is not a lot of difference in tone – they are all acceptable. And swapping pickups can make some small differences in tone, is easy to do, and doesn’t cost much. You can even get a pickup wound to have that thin vintage Fender tone. For a used model, the main things are to be sure all the parts are there and working right, and it has a very standard copedent (standard tuning, ABC pedals, DEF levers). If there is anything weird, missing, overly worn, or broken, make the seller change it to standard before you buy it. Any dealer can do that. If a player-seller can’t or won’t do that, move on. Beyond that, be sure it has looks acceptable for you, and only you can know that.

So my advice is to get something usable in your price range, and play it. Don’t try to make the decision of a lifetime now. You don’t have the money or the knowledge to do that now, and we can’t advise you on it. Part of the fun of learning pedal steel is learning about all the different makes and models. Don’t rob yourself of the pleasure of learning that for yourself, and then, when you know for yourself what you really want, get just the right one for you, whether it is being patient until you find it on the used market, or save up to buy it new, or get an old beater and refurbish it to your desires.

[Russ Tkac]

Justin,

I've had a Sho~Bud and now have a ZB and an Emmons. They've all been nice. Right now I really like my Emmons S-10 PP with 3 and 4. Get a standard Emmons set up and see if you like playing steel. If not, it should be pretty easy to sell. Go see Bobbe, he'll set you on the right path.

Russ

[Danny Bates]

There's a lot of good advice from everybody here but I think David Doggett has really "hit the nail on the head", especially regarding the C6 neck.

Myself, I would go see Bobbe and get a black D-10 Rittenberry. I think they're priced good and sure sound good.

[Kevin Mincke]

Although we haven't seen Carl's posts for quite some time, they were always "right on" and informative w/great info to all players & levels. I'm very happy to see him post a few again
Now, back to Justin's questions.......

[Danny Bates]

This post was edited to keep from offending anybody

[James Collett]

Jon-
I'm pretty sure "Together Again" was on a Fender 1000. Could be wrong though

Justin- don't restrict yourself to just Sho~Bud and Emmons, there are lots of others that would be, IMO, a more intelligent purchase. Despite the usually high resale value of Sho-Buds and E's, vintage instruments are USUALLY harder to work on, and from what I've been told, Emmons guitars, if you're not 100% sure of what you're doing, can end up worse than when you got it. Personally, I would go order yourself a brand new Rittenberry- from what I've heard, they're one, if not THE least expensive guitar on the market, and one of the best playing (all of this is just what I've heard, though).

By the way, this jumble of advice in my post is what most people I've talked to have given me- I've only got a C-Starter, and am keepong my eyes open for someday a pro guitar. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have wasted my time with a starter and found the cheapest, sturdiest, easiest to work on guitar I could find, but alas, I can now only pass this advice on to you

Aw well, I wish you the best of luck (even though I don't believe in it! )

[chris ivey]

carl may be wise...and cute..except that he thinks emmons p/p's are less capable of modern copedents...which i don't agree compared to sho-bud, zb, and any other pre-split-tuning guitar.
i would suggest an 80's or later modern mechanics era model...there are so many good steels being made now that outperform old ones.

[Bill Moore]

Justin, if I were a better typist, I would have said something like what Dave Doggett suggested. Seriously, resale value is probably the last thing you should be concerned with. You need a guitar that works! Get a reasonably late model all pull, Carter GFI, Fessenden, for example, you should be able to find one at a fair price. In a couple of years, will be able to make an educated decision about about choosing another guitar. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Justin Lee]

Gentlemen,

I can't thank you enough for all of your responses. You've given me a lot to think about and I feel much better prepared for the hunt.

Speaking of which, I've just returned from the bank with a wallet full of cash and have an appointment with Bobbe Seymour tomorrow morning at his shop. I plan to spend a few hours and see if I fall in love with any of his instruments.

I'll post photos if I bring anything home with me. Again, thanks for all of your comments. They've given me much more confidence in understanding my choices.

Regards,

Justin Lee

[Chris LeDrew]

Exciting stuff, Justin....going to Bobbe's with a wallet full of cash. That's up there on the dream list of many here.

Best of luck trying out all the great guitars. Give that light brown Pro II Custom a test run for me, will ya?

[Justin Lee]

Exciting stuff, Justin....going to Bobbe's with a wallet full of cash. That's up there on the dream list of many here.

Best of luck trying out all the great guitars. Give that light brown Pro II Custom a test run for me, will ya?

I'll test it out and give you a report.

Thanks Chris!

[Jerry Grant]

Hi Justin,
Check with Bobbe - he has just what you are looking for -an Emmons SD-10 with a Sho-Bud Super Pro undercarriage that he put togather. The best of both !!

Jerry