UNIVERSAL E9-B6-Bb6 B6/E9

Daniel Iribarren · Post by **Daniel Iribarren** » 2 Jun 2008 11:54 pm

My first and only steel is an EMCI U-12. I am at an beginner/intermediate level of playing I'd say. Most of the learning material I use is for E9 which is easy to adapt for the U12 but I would love to start taking advantage of the B6 side and integrating it to my playing. I think getting the U12 players together to exchange ideas would be great, count me in.

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 3 Jun 2008 8:37 am

Me too! The only guitars I've ever played were U-12's and I'm frustrated by the lack of information specific to that set up.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 3 Jun 2008 1:57 pm

Bob Simons:
What form (s) would you like the info in?

All E9/B6 are not the same...Newman, Stafford, Sierra, and a lot more.

E9 tab can be used on most of them +/- a string number and the D string becomes a lever.

The B6 use of C6 tab is messed up by string numbers (top four need to be renumbered), and the Newman requires renaming pedals and levers.

Sam Marshall · Post by **Sam Marshall** » 4 Jun 2008 6:21 am

I have played a Mullen U-12 since '92. It is an E9/B6 setup. I changed to it from an MSA Classic D-10 because of its close analogy to the Spanish guitar.

The tone of the its G# (3rd string) is an annoyance.

Sam Marshall

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 4 Jun 2008 6:51 am

I can annoy just about anyone by picking ANY string...sometimes without picking them!

Enjoy the AZ valley heat!

Joe McHam · Post by **Joe McHam** » 5 Jun 2008 3:43 am

Ed you have been reading my mail.. I fall into that category.. my wife can vouch for that.. LOL

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 5 Jun 2008 6:28 am

Ed-
Thank you for your response. I play basically a Jeff Newman 8/5 setup. Of course I would love having things tabbed and explained specifically for that instrument, but I realize that would be unlikely.

I understand the conversion of E9 and C6 tabs, but I'd like arrangements specific to "Universal" thinking and chord strategy. Even Jeff Newman, in a couple of seminars I took with him) seemed to distinguish between E9 style playing and C6 (B6) style. I can to the U-12 fresh and just think of it like a piano- play whatever on it! I know there must be wonderful players with a distinct philosophical approach to this setup. Some insight into their playing would be welcome.

Frankly I'm not comfortable with typical tabbing anyway because it is rarely written with timing or phrasing indications and if I don't have a recorded example I get too confused by it! I don't really want to copy other people's arrangements, I want to understand a little more of their phrasing and note choice. (I've pretty much had to figure out steel guitar for myself from my experience with the guitar and with other music.)

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 5 Jun 2008 8:29 am

Count me in for U12 discussion... I don't know how I missed this thread before

My primary axe is a '98 ZumSteel U12 8 & 6

I lower my 8th and/or raise my 9th to get the "D" when I need it (sometimes both at once) and pull the 10th to "B" so I also have the full open E9.

here's my copedant. Red are Raises, Blue are Lowers

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 5 Jun 2008 12:30 pm

I came back to the steel in the mid eighties, after having left it in the mid fifties. When I left, I was into the A6 as my basic tuning. I had an Electroharp like setup (Vega Corp's only). I used it mostly as a chord per pedal = E,A and variations thereon.

When I came back, I had missed the whole E9 C6 migration. I found a 12 string E9/B6 type Uni (Sierra).

Then I heard Bill Stafford at the NAMM show, and moved up to a 14 stringer E9/B6 (Sierra).

Bill's approach was to be able to have both the E9 and C6 (=B6) necks on the Uni hence the B6 lock = use it or not...your choice.

Bill also wanted the lower E, and added a second G# on top.

I think of the Uni as I use it in terms of a multinecked instrument. There is the I neck = E9, there is the IV neck = A6, and there is the V neck = B6...because 6ths are available on the I,IV,and V necks we have the relative minors = VI,II,III = C#m, F#m, and G#m.

Having come from the A6 background, I increased the useability of the IV neck. P1P2 open the A6 door. The lower strings are R & 5 on the I neck, and 5 & R on the IV neck. L<L> get the #5, b7, and b5. R<gets> adds the s4. L^ sometimes gets tweaked to get the M7.

My string 12 is a C#, giving those nice cello sounds in the IV neck lower strings.

I have the B6 lock.

My taste in music is heavilly Standards and Jazz, hence I am into the chords used to harmonize the major scale = M7, m7, m7b5 for four tone chords plus alternative 6ths for the M7s.

Ellington/Strayhorn tunes are a challenge without 9ths, b9s, #11s, 69s etc. The common E9\B6 is a bit wanting therin, so I have modified the I9 neck to get the full seven tone two octave chords on demand (P3P4 opens this door).

CM13 would be the line notes on the treble staff, Cm13 up two frets (= Dm13) would be the space notes on the treble staff.

For MR. Bob Simons,...My approach to TAB is to use the lead/fake sheets complete with notes...add to them the change(s), the string and fret of the root note of the chord, and maybe the string of the melody note. and that is my TAB.

The above assumes that the melody note is in the chord, and that the chord intervals are probably in sequential order (1,3,5, etc. are adjacent strings).

To make my arrangements, I would therefor find knowing where the chords are located convenient. This is the basis of a computer program I wrote that gives the chord locations as a function of activated changes on any tuning/setup of choice. All the chords are solved one time for all activated change combinations (that is a lot), and presented as a sortable list. The list has columns for the 4,5,6,and 7 tone chords. It is on an Excel spreadsheet.

Enter the name of the Root that you are interested in finding, and the chord types in the list will then show the string and fret for that Root.

The necks for all the change combinations are also shown as Notes, or Intervals. The notes may be seen as #s, bs, or enharmonics. The intervals may be seen as single octave (R thru 7th), or two octave (R thru 13th).

I find it convenient to think of the PSG more in terms of traditional music notation than the number system that evolved from the standard guitar laid down flat and retuned.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 8 Jun 2008 5:28 pm

Yes, I'm late to the party, too. Been using a Carter S12U since late 2005, with this tuning:

http://www.steelguitar.com/resource/tun ... nunive.htm

Nothing exotic or fancy, but I like changing from an 86-lb D-10 to a 32.5-lb S12. My back has been thanking me ever since.

Larry Robertson · Post by **Larry Robertson** » 18 Jun 2008 9:16 pm

Raybob Bowman · Post by **Raybob Bowman** » 19 Jun 2008 10:35 am

Count me in.

As for history of a uni tuning, I don't know who was first but I learned E9 in 77 and towards the end of the year, I saw Maurice Anderson give a demonstration of his Bb/Eb Universal somewhere in the SF peninsula at a Steel Guitar West meeting. Early in 78, having received some money, I ordered a Sho-Bud with a U-12 using Anderson's tuning for starters. It was a first for Sho-Bud as Dave Jackson and everyone at Sho-Bud asked me how I was going to play it when I picked it up.

I recall asking Maurice why Bb instead of B and he responded with less string breakage. I've since been using that tuning but lowered another half-step to A6/D9 because I now have a longer scale steel. My pedal setup is http://b0b.com/tunings/raybob.htm with the only change now is LKR is now like Paul Franklin's KL that lowers 5th string 1.5 steps.

As for deciding to use the E9 or the C6 as the base tuning and the lever getting the other, I decided to use the 6th as the base only because I was somewhat fluent with the E9 but complete novice at C6 never having played one so starting out, the extra work getting E9 made getting C6 as no problem. If E9 would have been the base of my tuning, it might have been forever to figure out what's going on with the 6th tuning.

IMO,
Raybob

Junior Knight · Post by **Junior Knight** » 19 Jun 2008 1:50 pm

Count me in!! I'm restoring a 65 or 66 S-12 MSA that was built for *Reese*..hope to have it ready SOON!

George Macdonald · Post by **George Macdonald** » 19 Jun 2008 4:05 pm

Me too, I started in 1974 with a B6th/E9th MSA set up by Maurice Anderson. Four years ago I switched to a S12 Carter, with 8 and 6. Still the B6th set up. My first 3 strings are Eb, G#, F#. My fourth and eighth I raise from Eb to E with my RR knee lever. I lower my fourth and eighth to D with my RL lever. I find it very comfortable to play all the E9th stuff by just resting my right leg against that RR lever. Just another way to "skin the cat". George

George Macdonald · Post by **George Macdonald** » 19 Jun 2008 4:18 pm

I should have added that when I sold my 1974 MSA four years ago, it went back to the Dallas area to a student of Marice Anderson's. He took it over to Bud Carter to have the set up changed to the more standard E9th/B6th. So, back to the great builder thirty years later. George

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jun 2008 7:58 pm

Here's a link to my self-serving post about the new CD of my blues group:Click Here. I'm playing a uni all over it, with some prominent comping and soloing on the low strings.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Jun 2008 5:58 am

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Jun 2008 8:12 am

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 30 Jun 2008 7:22 pm

I started steel on a T8 Fender.
Used mostly 6th tunings. Leaving the other necks for B11 and E13. Having never played E9 pedal steel.

So when it came time to try a pedal guitar. A 6th tuning made perfect sense to me, and finding the Bb6/Eb9 S12 8 and 5 made perfect sense to me. I still like it. I don't think about which mode I am in, I don't want a lock lever. I am fairly fluent in music theory.

My very learned friends tell me I gotta play more E9 style, and that "E9 ain't all thar" referring to the Bb6/Eb9 S12 copedent.

What is it that I am missing? mentally and copedent. I know I don't have a C pedal or an F lever.

Should I add a few more changes or play more that style?
I consider having my guitar re-rodded. Some say get a D10.

what's a guy to do?

Raybob Bowman · Post by **Raybob Bowman** » 30 Jun 2008 7:54 pm

Ron Randall wrote:My very learned friends tell me I gotta play more E9 style, and that "E9 ain't all thar" referring to the Bb6/Eb9 S12 copedent.

What is it that I am missing? mentally and copedent. I know I don't have a C pedal or an F lever.

Ron,
If you don't have the F lever, you are missing one of the main positions of the E9 tuning. With standard E9, there are 3 (really 4) main positions you can locate chords. With E9, you can play any chord pedals down, then get the same chord 5 frets up (pedals up), then get the same chord again with 1st pedal and F lever in the third position.

In Bb, if your right knee raises D to Eb, then use left knee to raise it again to E (like F lever). You'll find many melodic and chordal things you currently have missing from the E9 with that position.

As for the 3rd pedal, I have one (coming from E9 background to the Uni) but if I were to do it all over again, I'd simply do that change with a knee. Your guitar needs to be capable of triple raises on each string to get your D string to raise to Eb, then E, then F (3rd E9 pedal).

Raybob

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 30 Jun 2008 10:00 pm

Raybob,

That was a most helpful reply!
Got my head screwed back on!

Now I am just thinking about the mechanics to get it done. The guitar will handle it

Ron

Raybob Bowman · Post by **Raybob Bowman** » 30 Jun 2008 11:07 pm

Ron,
That 3rd E9 position that you are missing is, what I think, one of the best advantages for playing E9 on a Uni. In that position, on an E9, if you release the F lever, you change that major chord to minor. With the Uni, you can release the "F" lever while you hold the "E9" lever getting that minor chord or you can release that lever without holding the "E9" lever and get a smooth one step drop of the third of the chord, sounding just like the sound of rocking your foot off the 1st E9 pedal. If you release the "F" lever as you release the 1st E9 pedal, you get a nice transition to a 9th chord dropping the 3rd to the 9th (2nd) while you drop the tonic to the 7th releasing that 1st "E9" pedal.

With a regular E9, you can't get the F to smoothly go to the Eb without a stop at the E on the way. With the Uni, you have the option for either.

Raybob

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Jul 2008 2:55 am

Raybob Bowman wrote:

With a regular E9, you can't get the F to smoothly go to the Eb without a stop at the E on the way.
Raybob

I can. I lift my leg up like I'm going to hit the vertical and catch the levers at their bases where they are closer together, rather than along their sides or at their tips where they are further apart.

It took a lot of practice to get this move so smooth that you can't hear the middle E note. It's difficult, but it can be done.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 1 Jul 2008 5:07 am

Count me in too, been on a Bb 6th all my life...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Jul 2008 6:10 am

Ron R., when they say it's not all there, they must be referring to the missing C pedal and F lever. Those are major parts of standard E9. But that is just something unique to your tuning. All of the standard E9 and C6 changes can easily be put on a 12-string universal.

Compared to a fully loaded D10, with say 8 pedals and 8 levers, there may be one or two levers you can't get on a uni, mainly because the right knee levers of a D10 can do double duty on both necks. That is impossible on a uni, unless they were linked to crossover with the lever lock. But because of the extra strings, you have things a D10 cannot have. And you have both tunings at your finger tips without switching necks. Instead of having only 90% of each neck, I prefer to think of a uni as having 180% on a single neck.

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UNIVERSAL E9-B6-Bb6 B6/E9

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