Distortion, Overdrive, Whatever........for Steel

Jim Eller · Post by **Jim Eller** » 2 Jun 2008 4:52 am

I did a search on this subject but The Forum search thingy leaves a lot to be desired for me. I can never find anything.

Anyway.......... I currently use the right side of my Goodrich Steel Driver III when I want a little distortion but it never really sounds that clear or that good. Especially on the wound strings.

So, what are the alternatives that steel players use with decent results.

At one time I had a ProCo Rat because Joe Wright had one. I could never get it to sound like Joe's but then I don't suppose many people can.

I'm looking for something to use in songs like Johnny B. Good, Memphis, etc.

Jim

Carl Morris · Post by **Carl Morris** » 2 Jun 2008 7:32 am

This may not help much since it's specific to an amp, but I'm finding that the distorted sounds that I use for guitar in my CyberTwin head sound pretty good to me on my Carter Starter as well. I worked on them for quite a while, though, and wouldn't expect anyone to be very happy with what they heard just plugging into a CT and using the factory setup.

Steve Hotra · Post by **Steve Hotra** » 2 Jun 2008 7:40 am

I play with a Line 6 POD X3L and a Tonelab SE with my electrics. I've tried both of them, with slight distortion with my pedal steel.
Its taking time for me to get my tone under control,
( i'm just starting out on PSG)
Much like guitar players, I think its a matter of opinion... how much distortion or overdrive do you want.
Robert Randolph does this well, where the overdrive/distortion compliments the song, rather than draw attention. He uses stomp boxes.
Have fun trying different things!
Steve

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Jun 2008 9:16 am

On pedal steel I could never get what I wanted with most distortion, overdrive and fuzz units. At Dan Tyac's suggestion I tried a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube unit. When I put it between the guitar and my volume pedal it has just what I want. It has pick-sensitive, genuine tube distortion/overdrive, like a great blues amp. It has tone, gain and volume controls. I set the volume so it doesn't change when I activate it. I set the gain to give me as much or as little grit as I want. I usually set the tone with a lot of treble, which keeps it from getting muddy. I mostly use the rhythm channel; the lead channel is a little too hairy for me. It costs a bit more than most stomp boxes, but is worth every penny. The long search is over.

Joel Meredith · Post by **Joel Meredith** » 2 Jun 2008 9:54 am

I've been using a Fulltone "Octafuzz" lately and have really liked it.

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 2 Jun 2008 10:38 am

Ibanez Tube screamer works for me

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 2 Jun 2008 10:53 am

I used Tubeworks Tube Drivers for several years until I tried our guitar players old Proco Rat about a year ago. I loved the sound of it and got a sound I liked for steel right off. I needed another one for my gig rig, so I bought a new one, and I can tell very little difference in the two. The new one has an LED to show when it's in the circuit which is nice. You never know when the older one is in or out until you hit a note, which can be the cause of some embarrassment.

I've also used Boss Blues Drivers with pretty good results IMHO.

Jim Eller · Post by **Jim Eller** » 2 Jun 2008 11:00 am

Carl,

I mostly use a NV112 with RV3.

Jim

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 2 Jun 2008 11:52 am

Hi Jim,
I believe the Steel Driver is a fuzz distortion. My tube amp has been semi-retired until it gets some work, so lately I've been playing through a solid state amp, but I've been trying to get an over-driven tone without being able to over-drive a tube amp. I would like to try some of these OD pedals with tubes in them that people are praising here. For a while I was using a Boss Blues Driver (like a Tube Screamer), and it was okay. Lately I've been using a Route 66 pedal, which has a compressor that cascades into a Tube Screamer type of OD. It's taken me a while to get used to this pedal (it did not sound that great when I started using it), but now I'm getting better tones out of it and I'm starting to like it. I also use a Bosstone fuzz, and have been going: guitar-to-Bosstone-to-volume pedal-to-Route 66-to-phase-to-delay-to-amp (using amp reverb). Between the Bosstone and the Route 66 I can get a wide range of good distortion. I also have a ProCo Rat that sounds great with my Stratocaster, but for some reason the Rat sounds hard, harsh and nasty (not good) with my steel.

Good luck! Let us know what you find.
Cliff

Patrick Layher · Post by **Patrick Layher** » 2 Jun 2008 12:59 pm

I use the Seymore Duncan as well. What a sweet unit! I recently had to send it back to the manuf for repair and they gave me a new one free even though it was way out of warrantee.

Pat

Pete Woronowski · Post by **Pete Woronowski** » 2 Jun 2008 1:01 pm

The best I have ever heard was from Dannie Jones of the Bellamy Bros, it is a small unit called a boss tone.
Plugs into the input of the steel and looks like a Martin VTC, if you ever find one Buy it!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jun 2008 1:05 pm

At the suggestion of Dan Tyack and David Doggett, I picked up one of the Duncan Twin Tube Classic overdrive pedals. I have to say, that is the best-sounding overdrive pedal I have ever heard, and I had a chance to use a Zen Drive over Xmas. The Zen Drive was very good, but I think this is better - to my tastes.

I have mainly used it for guitar. It works great with any good tube amp I've tried OR even straight into my Pod 2, set up like a Deluxe Reverb. I put the overdrive before the amp/Pod, and if I don't go crazy with the gain knobs, it gives a very nice, sweet push without blowing the doors off the club. I am very impressed, and so were my bandmates. I've had it out to a few gigs, every time it worked great. That was playing some blues and old-time rock and roll tunes - but again on guitar. It just honked with a Les Paul or a Strat.

I haven't yet had a chance to try this straight into a solid-state PSG amp (I have a NV 112 and 400), or to really explore it with my PSG. That's the hat trick - we'll see. This gives me an excuse to give it a more careful look.

BTW - I picked up a "blem" at AMS for $180, including shipping. When I got it, I couldn't find the blem. That's what the basic Fulltone overdrive goes for, I believe. Although I think that's a good pedal, I think this has it beat by a mile.

Of course, this is all my tastes and usage. Always a good idea to check things out first or get from someone with a liberal return policy.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 Jun 2008 5:07 pm

I'm currently using a Damage Control Liquid Blues unit. It is a dual tube pedal that has 2 modes, one for overdrive and the other kicks it up to full distortion. So far, I like it.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 2 Jun 2008 5:15 pm

How does the Seymore Duncan Twin Tube work with a Tele played through a Peavey classic 30? Will it give the amp more of a warm tube sound?

Terry

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Jun 2008 6:15 pm

Terry, I only play pedal steel, no tele, but I have used the SD Twin Tube with a Peavey Delta Blues. It works great, but it's sort of like bringing coals to Newcastle. Those small Peavey tube amps will already do plenty of distortion if driven. But they are a bit trebley. The SD Twin Tube is pretty versatile, so maybe it could add some body to a Classic 30. But you would be working with a stomp box worth as much as the amp. Stomps for guitar are a whole different ball game, and I don't make any claims for that. Steelers have the problem that they usually play with high powered very clean amps that wont distort at reasonable volume levels. So we need a box to do that. But many boxes for guitar just don't work the same for steel. My point is that the SD Twin Tube is one that will work for steel into a clean amp. I use a Dual Showman or Super Twin. But I see no reason that the SD Twin Tube wouldn't work great with a typical clean solid state steel amp.

One issue with steel is whether to put the box in front of or after the volume pedal. Some boxes work better one place than the other. I prefer the box in front of the volume pedal. That way I get the tone/distortion I want from pick sensitivity and the box. The volume pedal then will only control the volume, and has no effect on the tone, and that's what I am after. The SD Twin Tube is one box that works great that way.

P.S., I darkened and warmed up the tone of my Delta Blues by adding my own plywood slats to close up the back more. It is still open back, but has much less of an opening back there. This might work for a Classic 30 also.

Pete Woronowski · Post by **Pete Woronowski** » 2 Jun 2008 6:45 pm

David, I always use the volume pedal in the effects loop of my amps so its after the preamp so there is no tone change at all it only increases/decreases the level of the main amp.
That way I can use the volume control on the gtr to pad the input of the distortion pedal in the front end when required.

Take Care, Pete

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 2 Jun 2008 7:06 pm

I use the Boss super overdrive with a dod compressor in front between the pickup and volume Most of the time I use this with a 57 Fender lap steel. SWEET!!!
(not my playing, just the combination).

Tony

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jun 2008 7:29 pm

Terry - I certainly used the Duncan Twin Tube with my Teles some - it sounded great into a Deluxe/Vibrolux Reverb or my Pod if I want a little more balls, but not let it get real ratty like a lot of high-distortion amps do. But I don't have a Peavey Classic 30, so I can't really comment on that particular amp.

It also sounded great into my Dual Showman Reverb, as David also observed. One of the things I liked about this pedal is that it gets a good overdrive sound from a clean tube amp like the Dual Showman or Twin Reverb. Like David, I sense that it probably wouldn't do too much for an amp whose preamp is already highly saturated. If I used it on an amp like the Classic 30, I'd get the amp as clean as possible, and then see what the pedal can do to warm it up without using the onboard distortion, which I found a bit ratty for my tastes on the ones I've tried. I think that's why I like this pedal so much - it's pretty durned smooth. But again - I don't really know how this will react with the front end of a Classic 30.

On this pedal, there are three sounds - completely bypassed, rhythm, and lead. The rhythm and lead channels share a bass and treble control, but each has its own volume (level) and gain (essentially drive or saturation) control. The key to getting a good sound, to my tastes, is to not use extreme settings. With a good amp, it sounds best to my tastes using very moderate amounts of level and gain, as well as moderate tone adjustment.

I'll report back when I try this with PSG into my NV 112 and NV 400. What's not clear yet is how much of the sound is in the unit itself, and how much is in the interaction with the tube preamp. So I will probably try this with my Black Box also. Too late to do this now - don't want to rile up the family, the neighbors, and the police.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 2 Jun 2008 7:44 pm

I don't have a Duncan Twin Tube right now (mine was stolen a few years ago). But my recollection was that it sounded great even through a solid state amp. My Zen Drive sounds amazing through my 60s Showman. I couldn'r really say which one was better.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Jun 2008 9:16 pm

The first post is the telling one.

If you don't know the difference between fuzz, distortion and overdrive you will not only be frustrated, you'll be trying the wrong things endlessly. While there ARE some overlaps in what they do (and mislabeling by makers) they are really 3 different effects...plus a 4th would be a boost pedal.

Fuzz is what it says - it creates a square or sawtooth-type waveform, giving you a buzzy, bucket-of-bees tone. It is the least articulate and the most limited tonewise, usually.

Distortion is a step down as far as "buzz". It's an attempt to emulate a cranked-up tube amp, with all sorts of "flavors". It's made to *create* distortion in an otherwise clean amp.

Overdrive, in the truest sense of the word, is meant to kick an already cranked-up tube amp into natural distortion. The better overdrives don't really provide much (if any) distortion themselves - they increase gain and tweak the frequency response to push an amp *right* on th edge of distortion over the edge. MANY OD's - notably ones based on the Tube Screamer - also inject some level of distortion into the signal, but not much. Others like the Lovetone Brown Source, are real Overdrives - used with a turned-down amp you'll get NO distortion...in fact almost no effect at all other than a tiny gain boost.

"Boost" pedals are sort of a crossover with true overdrives, and are meant to push your amp and give you more of what you already have - if what you already have is on the edge of distortion, a "clean boost" will NOT be clean, it will work like an overdrive. But with an amp turned up to a midpoint in the volume level, a clean boost gives you an extra kick for solos.

This list, as I said, is really generalized, as there are a lot of fuzz pedals labeled distortion and visa-versa; the worst descriptions are usually on overdrives, which are anything from clean boost to almost fuzz.

One note - almost ALL guitar effects will work differently with modern steels than with 6-string and will require impedance matching, like a Matchbox, Steeldriver, impedance-matching, buffered volume pedal etc. Otherwise, the extreme high impedance and output of steel pickups (with typical 20k DC resistance as opposed to guitar pickups at 6-8k) will distort...in a nasty way...effects like phasers, chorus, delays, etc.

But again - if you don't know what you're REALLY looking for, you're not going to find it. And trying out an effect in a guitar store with a 6 string will NOT clue you in as to how it will sound with a steel. But it WILL give you a general idea of what it's general tendancies are.

I hope that helps and isn't more confusion!

Jim

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jun 2008 6:05 am

I keep comin' back to my first year Rat. I gets the "fat and greasy" sound I like.
David D. I greatly improved the sound of my Delta Blues 15 by putting in much larger transformers. A big old Hammond for the PT, and a Dr. Z for the OT.

Steve Hotra · Post by **Steve Hotra** » 3 Jun 2008 7:42 am

Jim Sliff wrote:The first post is the telling one.

If you don't know the difference between fuzz, distortion and overdrive you will not only be frustrated, you'll be trying the wrong things endlessly. While there ARE some overlaps in what they do (and mislabeling by makers) they are really 3 different effects...plus a 4th would be a boost pedal.

Fuzz is what it says - it creates a square or sawtooth-type waveform, giving you a buzzy, bucket-of-bees tone. It is the least articulate and the most limited tonewise, usually.

Distortion is a step down as far as "buzz". It's an attempt to emulate a cranked-up tube amp, with all sorts of "flavors". It's made to *create* distortion in an otherwise clean amp.

Overdrive, in the truest sense of the word, is meant to kick an already cranked-up tube amp into natural distortion. The better overdrives don't really provide much (if any) distortion themselves - they increase gain and tweak the frequency response to push an amp *right* on th edge of distortion over the edge. MANY OD's - notably ones based on the Tube Screamer - also inject some level of distortion into the signal, but not much. Others like the Lovetone Brown Source, are real Overdrives - used with a turned-down amp you'll get NO distortion...in fact almost no effect at all other than a tiny gain boost.

"Boost" pedals are sort of a crossover with true overdrives, and are meant to push your amp and give you more of what you already have - if what you already have is on the edge of distortion, a "clean boost" will NOT be clean, it will work like an overdrive. But with an amp turned up to a midpoint in the volume level, a clean boost gives you an extra kick for solos.

This list, as I said, is really generalized, as there are a lot of fuzz pedals labeled distortion and visa-versa; the worst descriptions are usually on overdrives, which are anything from clean boost to almost fuzz.

One note - almost ALL guitar effects will work differently with modern steels than with 6-string and will require impedance matching, like a Matchbox, Steeldriver, impedance-matching, buffered volume pedal etc. Otherwise, the extreme high impedance and output of steel pickups (with typical 20k DC resistance as opposed to guitar pickups at 6-8k) will distort...in a nasty way...effects like phasers, chorus, delays, etc.

But again - if you don't know what you're REALLY looking for, you're not going to find it. And trying out an effect in a guitar store with a 6 string will NOT clue you in as to how it will sound with a steel. But it WILL give you a general idea of what it's general tendancies are.

I hope that helps and isn't more confusion!

Jim

Jim;
Good explanation of the differences.
Looks like most use the typical 6 string guitar effect boxes, etc.
Is there a effects box specifically designed for pedal steel?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 3 Jun 2008 11:17 am

The Steeldriver models were designed for steel, but honestly I find the "fuzz" (and it's definitely "fuzz") to be near-useless; the switch is too hard to hit quickly during a song and it is horribly noisy. I love the buffer/preamp side, but could throw away the other side (fuzz) and never miss it.

The Jordan Bosstone wasn't originally designed for steel as far as I know but seems to work well without any other in-between stuff.

There have been some one-off and boutique "steel pedals" made, but none I know of that really took off.

I have dozens (I use that number to be conservative) of effects pedals, boxes, multi-effect units, etc, and only a select few really sound good with modern steels. I can get all of them to work with my Fenders and my GFI Ultra - the GFI II (I believe a George L product) is far lower in resistance than most, has a warmer, Fender like tone with more sustain, and takes *most* effects with out problems, except for the MXR and clone time-based units (phase, flange, etc.) so I use a Steeldriver II, which also gives me my vital volume and tone controls on the guitar.

I don't understand how anyone can play without a tone control - I make subtle alterations every song, sometimes at multiple places in a song. I'm working on a permanent mounting solution for my Ultra, but haven't found a way to mount them AND make them easily accessible yet. It may end up a box that plugs directly into the output jack with a Fender-style volume/tone circuit based on the 1-pickup Esquire...unless the pickup has split coils (I've never checked) in which case there will be a few more goodies added.

Stompboxes I've found that work without an impedance matcher. I used all with my old MSA, my old Shobud, and the GFI and Fenders.:

Klon Centaur overdrive/boost.
ZVex Super Duper 2-in-1 boost and Fuzz Factory
The cheapo Dano FAB pdals (which shocked me)
Ibanez FL-9 Flanger
MXR Distortion+ (which probably IS affected, but since it's already a distortion pedal...
Lovetone Brown Source OD (a TRUE OD)
Ibanez CP-835 Compressor II (I use it rarely, but it does work well with steels
H&K Replex Delay
Line 6 DL-4 Delay
All of the discontinued Way Huge line
Ibanez EM-5 Echomachine
Arion SCH-1 Chorus (the nez SCZ-1 does not)
Arion Octave pedal
SIB Mr. Echo
MXR Micro amp (I have an old non-LED type - not sure about the new ones)
Snarling Dog Blues Bawls Wah - combo multi-stage wah and distortion pedal. Distortion switch is hard to hit playing steel, but is worth it! The Wah is the best I've found yet for steel.

Multi effects:

Yamaha DG Stomp (good bang for the buck)
PodXt

Just about everything else I have or have tried had fizzy overtones unless buffered. And even though they are the biggest name in effects, I have never been enamored with any of the Boss effects except the stompbox Harmonizer, and most sounded terrible with steel although good (in a really generic way) with 6-string.

I could probably thing of some more, but laying here in the recliner recovering from foot surgery I'm going by memory....

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 3 Jun 2008 2:27 pm

For a lighter overdrive sound into a clean amp, try a Bad Monkey, cheap and really good! $39 and it's bumped $200+ pedals off my 6-string board. Having said that, it's not currently on my board, but I do like it with my GFI and my lap steels. For a more boutique solution, an Xotic BB might to do the trick, or a ZVex Box of Rock.

For a liquid saturated fuzz tone, I like the ToneFactor Huckleberry quite a bit. Also, the Skreddy Top Fuel and Screwdriver sound good on steel.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Jun 2008 5:05 pm

I pretty much agree with Jim Siff on the effects thing.

If you want to have an effect that you can switch on with your transistor steel amp and say 'dagnabbit that sounds like a rock guitar' then I'd go for a 'distortion box'. As to the fuzz sound, I've usually found those to be pretty useless.

Of the things I've tried, the best sound I've heard against a clean pedal steel amp would be the Duncan Twin Tube. For a Dumble sound against my 60s Showman, I really like the Zen Drive.

But to be honest, I don't think I've ever used any sort of overdrive/distortion box in any recording ever. I usually use one of my THD amps, which have more gain that you can shake a stick at, there's no reason to boost anything.

The only time I use a box is when I use my Showman.