ShoBud question (2nd steel decision)

Rick Hulett · From: Hood River, OR

I'm a new player. Currently have a Carter Starter and it's doing a good job for what it is. But, I'm looking beyond and can see that I'm going to to want a more professional instrument. I've got a thing for old vintage instruments. My main 6 string guitar is a 1956 Gibson 175. The old ShoBuds I've looked at online look really sweet. I know I'll probably stir up a hornet's nest here, but are there some models that are better than others? Are there certain models to avoid? I like old stuff, but I also want it to work. I want something I can reliably use for gigging. Are there models other than ShoBuds I should be looking at? I think I want a D10. I'm a jazzer so the C6 is really attractive to me. Thanks for all the opinions I'm sure I'll get here.

Rick
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

The only advice I can give is avoid buying from E-Bay if at all possible. Many of these guitars are for sale by people who know little or nothing about them and therefore can not tell you if they function properly.... (Buying from a Forum member would be a wiser choice IMHO.)

Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

Check With Bobbe Seymour At Steel Guitar Nashville (615-822-5555) For Good SHO-BUDS. He Has Some Nice One's SONNY.

Allen Kentfield · From: Texas, USA

Rick

I've played a 1977 Pro-II Custom for 30 years. I'm very content with it, Very Happy

obviously. With the nylon tuners, it stays in tune, and I love the single coil sound. I had oversized nut rollers installed on it. The Pro I (rounded front) I had before that was the "basket case" model, and wouldn't stay in tune. Devil

A real nightmare.

Al

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

All my LDGs have been sold as of the moment but I have two doubles that are excellent! Very reasonable.

Bobbe

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Rick Hulett · From: Hood River, OR

Good advice. That's the kind of thing I was wondering. Steels seem quite a bit more complicated. Thanks.
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112

Keith White · From: Norfolk, UK

Hi rick .If you can find a good shobud grab it i have two, a SD10 professional and a LDG both perform well. But we have 3 new rains SD10s in the studio and they play so smooth look on the forum on d hartly u tubing my new one hinges on the gate its got a differant pick up and blows everything out the door when you floor it.Rains are a good make to go for if your gigging a lot. i havent posted this as a thread as i dont want to start a slag off between manufacturers over the forum. good luck with your choice Keith white.uk
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Sho-Bud 'LDG', Sho-Bud 'The Professional', Rains SD10, Fessenden D10, Hilton Pedal, Peavey Session 500, Peavey 112, Lots of PV PA, And of course, the BJS Bar (for the best tone)! Love all Steel Guitars!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I gigged for 15 years with a 1972 Shobud D-10. I had no tuning issues! It sounded gorgeous, was gorgeous. Baskets and barrels, while not the most preferred mechanically, are still great guitars. Ya just gotta set them up right. Do old guitars play as easily, pedal action, slop, etc., as modern guitars? No! But that never bothered me a bit. Never entered my mind. You just play, and the "quirks" disappear behind the sound. I play nothing but old guitars now. They're great! Use your ears! Listen to your guitar, not you electronic tuner!

Rick Hulett · From: Hood River, OR

Keith,

I just found the YouTube video you talked about. Beautiful stuff. I noticed he was playing an SD10. I don't quite get what the advantage of an SD10 is. Is it just to have a place to rest your arms? Is there a tone advantage? Seems like quite a bit more weight that doesn't buy you much. Am I missing something?

Rick
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112

Russ Blake · From: Oregon, USA

Rick, I've got the old instrument bug, too. My main six string is a Gibson even older than yours! My main steel right now is a '64 Sho-Bud which I play out regularly and I love it. I would fully agree with everything John Billings said. I'm in Portland, so if you're close by you are more than welcome to check out the 'Bud. It may help with your decision.

David Doggett · Posted 2 May 2008 11:15 am

The early '70s Pro I and Pro II, with the round front and two-hole bell cranks with barrel tuners, are considered to have reliable mechanics and great tone. They have limited numbers of raises and lowers on each string, compared to modern pedal steels, but they are adequate for a very standard copedent. Earlier ones can have problematic mechanics, especially if worn, which most are. The Baldwin crossover model has the worst reputation for mechanics, and was the heaviest model, but they have good tone. Many of the later models had good modern mechanical design and tone, but cheap metal parts that wear easily and break. At least this is the story I hear from top Sho-Bud restorers like Ricky Davis.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

There are some advantages to the SD-10 format. There is a lot more room for knee levers, and better placement options. Some find it more comfortable to sit farther away from the neck. The big old roundfront LDGs get some of the tone from the size and extra weight of the body.... and the body resonates more freely without all of that C6 hardware screwed to it......

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I play SD-12's----have three of them. But my newest steel is an S-12 Bud. Although I love the double bodies and the aforementioned advantages of space underneath them for maximum positioning flexibility, there's something very cool about the size of this single body guitar. So I'm currently feeling like there's something ---a lot--- to be said for both options.

That's as wishy-washy a statement as you're gonna find but it's straight-up.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

The knee levers on my "new" guitar are quite comfortable to use. I prefer the S-10 format. I guess I'm used to the posture. I sure don't need a pad for any reason. If I'm not playin' I put my hands on my lap. 1974, 3/6 Coop/Davis

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Rick, You are, as you said, likely to get a lot of different opinions!

I have three Sho-Buds, one from 1973, the other two from the post-1977 "Super Pro" period (it's become customary to refer to this era that way, but all Sho-Bud models used the same mechanics then--Sho-Bud went out of business in 1984). The actual Super Pro I've had since 1984, though I believe it was probably made a couple of years earlier. My experience with all three is that they are mechanically not at all inferior to other makes, with the one exception described below. They play just fine (pedal and lever action), hold tune extremely well, are solid and stable, sound great (subjective of course), and look great (ditto).

The exception I referred to is: The post-1977 models have various parts made of what's called "pot metal" (I had never heard of it before getting into steel). It's a porous and brittle metal. That results in several things.

Most significantly, the brackets that attach the knee levers to their cross rods can snap off. That's a serious defect, but it's easily and not expensively corrected by replacing the brackets with aluminum ones, which are now readily available. It's a bit of a one-time hassle of disassembling the undercarriage, but once it's done it's done. I had all my brackets replaced after one knee lever snapped off--end of problem. Some have reported other parts breaking similarly, but I've had no experience of that.

Another thing that happens is that the holes in bell cranks (the undercarriage parts that rods are attached to) can gradually get enlarged through playing wear. This seems to vary with the individual part, and most likely with how diligently lubrication has been maintained. The effect on action seems minimal, unless it gets really bad, or wears clear through! (never seen that, but may have happened?)

And the third thing is that the changer fingers, also made of pot metal, sometimes suffer wear such that a lowering change will not work right, or at all. Just speculating, since all Sho-Buds are at least 24 years old, if one with original parts hasn't shown this by now, maybe it won't?

Outside of those issues, all related to the unfortunate choice of material for some parts, the mechanical design of the post 1977 Sho-Buds is, IMHO, excellent--indeed, most modern steels use essentially the same design principles, with various refinements.

While it's true that this kind of list of potential problems isn't found about other brands of steel, it must be remembered that the occurrence of any of these problems is relatively rare, and a whole lot of Sho-Bud owners have happily used Buds of all vintages for many years without suffering any of the above.

All in all, my personal opinion is that the sound and that great vintage look--and the fact that you can find a good Bud for cheaper than most comparable modern steels--make Sho-Buds well worthy of consideration.

Here's a link to history of Sho-Bud models:
http://www.planet.eon.net/~gsimmons/shobud/models.html

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

rick..steel guitar mechanics are relatively simple if you have that sort of mind...lots of older steels are very music worthy. you may run across better deals on older dekley's and msa's. fairly heavy but great mechanically...(sho-buds, emmons,zb's..everything was heavy until recently)
i recommend one of these older pro models and definitely get a d10 with c6 neck if you like jazz. you won't be satisfied til you do...unless, of course, you delve into the single neck 12string or more world...that's a whole nother world i can't comment on!

Antolina · From: Dunkirk NY

There's not much I can add to what's been said. Lotta good advice and recommendations. I'm with you on the vintage thing. Something about those old Buds that tugs at the heart strings. I currently own two old Buds and wouldn't part with either of them.

I'm not as anti ebay as some but it's a good idea to have all the knowledge you can before venturing out. From what I observe, the S-10 models generally run in the $1200 to $1500 range although if you keep your eys peeled you might find a real bargain somewhere. I scored my '68 for $650 but that was a rarity. The real beauty of the older Buds is the amount of available parts and knowledge on this forum.

All that being said, I think everyone will agree... nothing sounds like a Bud. Smile

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The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.

Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4

RC Antolina

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hey Rick I have a Sho-Bud pro III you might be interested in with updated John Coop undercarriage and pedal changer.

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hello Rick still trying to get pictures of my pro III sho-bud guitar, had trouble with the size of the pictures, they were too big to download.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

David Doggett · Posted 10 May 2008 10:31 am

Cost hasn't been mentioned much. In fairness, someone should tell Rick how much a Coop rebuild of an old Sho-Bud costs.

Because of the mechanics and cosmetics, pedal steels are a lot like cars. Do you want to get an old classic and rebuild it or have someone else rebuild it? Or do you want something more recent with less problems that you can hit the ground running with?

Yes, there are some bargains and old jewels in the older pedal steels, but it can take a lot of luck and knowledge to find one, and it is likely to be a project. Many of us have started out that way, but it's not necessarily the best thing to wish on a newbie.

Also, there has been very little discussion of the copedent (the tuning of the strings, pedals and levers). Many older pedal steels have poor adjustments and quirky setups from previous owners, and not as many levers as newer models. You will want to change it over to a very standard modern setup for learning. You will probably need help with that, and may need to hunt down new parts or send it to a steel tech. Unless you have someone nearby who can give you hands on help with this, I would strongly recommend any newbie buying an old used pedal steel to send it to a steel tech for cleaning, adjustment and a standard setup.

So when you are thinking about those old classic beauties, think about all the extra time, work and cost they may require. The best bargains, in terms of having something with a standard modern setup that needs little or no work, are recent used models from the top companies now in business.

In terms of the SD models with pads, there are no real advantages. It's all personal preference in posture and sitting position. Coming from piano, dobro, lap steel, and an S-10 beginner's pedal steel, I find the pad in the way, and it adds unwanted extra size and weight. While some say they hear a difference in tone, others say the single bodies sound better. So I think that is also a matter of personal preference. If there is a real tone difference, it is a much more subtle difference than the tone differences between brands. And since Rick has said he is interested in jazz steel, he should only consider a D10 or a 12-string universal that combines the two tunings.

Rick Hulett · From: Hood River, OR

Thanks David. I've about come to the conclusion that just learning how to play is enough of project for me right now and that I might be better off with something newer that I don't have to work on. I hope I'm not going to be biting off more than I can chew trying to digest E9 and C6 at the same time, but my wife always says I have a big mouth.

Rick
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Rick, you're beginning to sound like the perfect candidate for a U-12! No harder to learn on, and there are many benefits. I never think of it as two separate tunings on one neck. Just one tuning.

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