Solenoid Steel Guitar

[Matthew Carlin]

Look at the Fender VG Strat, Change your tuning with turn of a knob... I guess it has its time and place.

Has anyone mounted a roland synth pickup on any kind of steel guitar? What about a piezo?

Fishman was doing a modeler called the Aura. wonder if they could model a dobro? That could be fun..

[Joe Rogers]

Line 6 has already modeled the Dobro on their Variax Acoustic.

Joe Rogers

[Don Poland]

Look at the Fender VG Strat, Change your tuning with turn of a knob... I guess it has its time and place.

Has anyone mounted a roland synth pickup on any kind of steel guitar? What about a piezo?

Fishman was doing a modeler called the Aura. wonder if they could model a dobro? That could be fun..

Matthew, check with Terry McCumbee here on the forum. I seem to recall that he was using some type of synth pickup at one time.
Also, you might want to check with Jerry Brightman. I seem to recall having a conversation with him at one time about using some type of midi synth.

[Dennis Olearchik]

I think Rusty Young used a "synth" pick-up on his steel back in the '80s. And at one time, didn't Buddy Emmons install a synth pup on one of his steels as well?

[Tom Gorr]

I don't think solenoids will solve the bar half of the problem.

Besides - what's the difference if you move a lever to stretch a string vs. move a level to engage a solenoid to stretch a string ? Answer: direct connection gives you more control.

I think the only change electronics have is sort of a PODXT for a steel guitar - move a lever to change a rheostat that does pitch shifting on an individual string. That has a chance. Solenoids don't IMO.

[b0b]

I don't believe that electronic pitch changing will sound the same as actually pulling a string. The timbre of a note changes as you pull it, and each string changes in a different way at each fret. That's part of the richness of pedal steel tone. That's why I have no interest in the "Variax" approach to pitch changing.

I do believe, however, that an electrically activated changer can, in theory, be controlled as well as a mechanical one. In fact, it can be better. The length of pedal travel and stiffness could be adjusted without regard to the mechanics of the changer. That would be a big improvement over today's designs.

[John Billings]

I can see into the future now! Ten strings, all the same gauge, and about six inches long, that you "pick." And the fingerboard and bar reduced to a ribbon controller that you slide your left-hand index finger up and down. Whole "steel guitar" is only sixteen inches long, and one inch thick! We have all the parts to make that now. There was some six string that used that tech several years ago. Just haven't figured out how to do the pedals yet. Maybe with a direct link, via midi-cable to the player's brain.

[Bent Romnes]

Besides - what's the difference if you move a lever to stretch a string vs. move a level to engage a solenoid to stretch a string ? Answer: direct connection gives you more control.

Tom,
The difference, like I said earlier, was that the 'solenoid steel' would be potentially quite a bit lighter in weight. Also there's a chance of improving on the cabinet drop. I envision this from the fact that you will not be activating pedals mechanically and thereby pulling the cabinet downwards, but instead pressing pedals that are connected to the 'pulling' solenoids via electrical wires.

[Bent Romnes]

The length of pedal travel and stiffness could be adjusted without regard to the mechanics of the changer. That would be a big improvement over today's designs.

A great idea that I had never thought of b0b.
Of course...this could easily be achieved.

[chris ivey]

b0b...has anyone modeled a banjo tone for you to use on your steel?

[Allan Munro]

Found this thread while I was looking for something completely different. Fascinating!

I think it will come. What my frame of reference is - ever flown in a fly by wire plane? Sure you have - and they said that would never happen either.
As I understand it the control surfaces remain much the same. It is just that they have done away with the mechanical/hydraulic linkages between them and the pilot.
Now, I am not saying that I like it as a concept applied to the PSG but I do think it will come. If all of the mechanical stuff can be carried out on a fairly small rigid metal plate or casting, thus removing cabinet drop, I say again - it will come. There will always be a place for the PP and the all-pull PSG since every change in the instrument brings a new tone/style to the party. But someone will build one sooner or later - for sure.

Regards, Allan.....

[Donny Hinson]

Why do mechanically what you can do with electronics and software?

I'll give you a few reasons...

Betamax
Cassettes
DOS programs
Nashville 2000

Electronic technology has one big downside - it changes.

You can still play and repair 50 year-old pedal steels.

Try finding a new head for a Betamax machine. Or a new cassette player/recorder motor. Try finding a modern computer that will run old DOS programs. Or try getting chips for that Nashville 2000 (from anywhere but Peavey).

Mechanical technology, with all it's drawbacks, can always be easily made to work. One only has to look at the IVL Steelrider to see what happens when technology moves forward.

"Sorry sir, they don't make those anymore."

Whattya gonna do when you can't get parts to fix that fancy $X,000 digital steel?

People can make mechanical stuff. But the expertise and equipment to make sophisticated electronic components is available only to factories. When they can't make money on it any longer, the phrase "NO LONGER AVAILABLE" begins to appear in catalogs, and technology takes on a whole new meaning.

[Mike Perlowin]

Has anyone mounted a roland synth pickup on any kind of steel guitar? What about a piezo?

At one time the IVL company made a MIDI pickups for steel. They called it the steel rider.

Several prominent players have use the IVL unit or a Roland pickup to MIDI their steels at one time or another. These include Al Petty, Jim Cohen. Reece Anderson and Tommy Dodd. Here in Californnia, our fellow forumite Mike Johnstone has a MIDI pickup on his steel, as does Dr, Jim Palenscar.

I have not experimented with MIDI, but I have done so extensively with peizo pickups, and and come to the conclusion that they don't work on a pedal steel guitar because they pick up and amplify all the mechanical noise. I've even tried pitting the pickup under the first fret, as fare from the changer as possible, and it still picked up all the mechanical noise.

[Allan Munro]

Why do mechanically what you can do with electronics and software?

I'll give you a few reasons...

Betamax
Cassettes
DOS programs
Nashville 2000

Electronic technology has one big downside - it changes.

You can still play and repair 50 year-old pedal steels.

Try finding a new head for a Betamax machine. Or a new cassette player/recorder motor. Try finding a modern computer that will run old DOS programs. Or try getting chips for that Nashville 2000 (from anywhere but Peavey).

Mechanical technology, with all it's drawbacks, can always be easily made to work. One only has to look at the IVL Steelrider to see what happens when technology moves forward.

"Sorry sir, they don't make those anymore."

Whattya gonna do when you can't get parts to fix that fancy $X,000 digital steel?

People can make mechanical stuff. But the expertise and equipment to make sophisticated electronic components is available only to factories. When they can't make money on it any longer, the phrase "NO LONGER AVAILABLE" begins to appear in catalogs, and technology takes on a whole new meaning.

You make some excellent points there and there is no question that much of the electronics industry is, and has to be, driven by the large development costs for new applications. The technology to drive a solenoid operated changer exists already though. A <50 buck Arduino and a handful of door closer solenoids would probably do it. I still see this as a POSSIBLE development. May even be developed by an amateur.
I don't know if this would ever become main stream but it is a fascinating subject.
Just put 'arduino' into YouTube or Google and you will see what I mean.

Regards, Allan.....

[John Billings]

I think a "Hydraulic" steel guitar will come first.

[Mitch Ellis]

Super idea until it breaks! Then you're screwed!

Now thats funny!
Mitch

[Ned McIntosh]

Some months ago we had a thread about a hydraulic pedal-steel, and it was discussed at some length.

A mechanical steel (such as we have today) gives feel, and by using our body's "muscle-memory" we adjust our pedal (and lever) techniques to create the feel and emotion we need to bring out via our playing. Our instrument is all about "feel" and "emotion", let us not forget that.

Servo-systems, on the other hand, are usually designed to deliberately and totally remove all the feel and mechanical feedback from control-systems. The epitome of this is the Airbus family of commercial aircraft. Sure, they mostly fly really well, but there is no direct connection between the pilot's hands and feet and the aircraft control-surfaces or to the fuel-pumps or fuel metering-system and the throttles.

So, pushing the thrust-levers all the way forward on an Airbus might give you diddly-squat in terms of a power increase just when you need it more than anything else in the world, depending on what mode the flight management computer is in. Likewise, pulling the sidestick fully rearwards may not give the nose pithcing-up movement you are asking it do to, again because the computer is actually in charge of the controls and it is merely "taking advice" from the pilot's inputs. By analogy, do we want to directly control the sound of our instrument, or do we merely want to give advice about how to play to a computer presumably buried somewhere in the cabinet?

[If you are interested in reading more on the percieved relative merits of the Airbus versus Boeing philsophy, it has been well-documented on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network (www.pprune.org) where the issue is debated with all the fervor of ancient clerics discussing conflicting points of religious idealogy.]

Let's get back to the "coal-face", or perhaps I should term it "the stage-floor". As pedal-steel players we rely inherently on the mechanical feedback and "muscle-memory" associated with that feedback from our pedals and knee-levers to develop the sound and the tone we need, right at that very instant, in the context of the piece of music we are playing. I maintained in a previous that a hydraulic pedal-steel will not give this, unless some very sophisiticated (read expensive, and potentially heavy) additional devices are attached to the servos to generate this feedback. How expensive and heavy do our steels have to be anyway?

I postulate that a similar situation would exist with a pedal-steel built using all electro-mechanical systems. Consider how such a device might conceivably work:-

First, a basic analogue system. Push the pedal, a variable voltage is developed across a variable resistor, it sends a signal to another motor which accelerates, moves appropriately then decelerates and stops. Where is the "feel", where is the feedback? Do you add a spring on each pedal? Do you add a second motor, operating in reverse and connected to the pedal to apply a back-pressure corresponding to the force being developed by the actuating-solenoid or motor? How do you add the mechanical feedback to a device that deliberately doesn't have it in the first place? Just how complex does our musical instrument really have to be anyway? Be aware that making it electronic or electro-mechanical will not, repeat, not, make our instrument any simpler - or cheaper!

A variation would be to use a form of AC "Selsyn" type of motor, with the options of single-phase or three-phase electrics for smoothness. You still have to design and incorporate the system to give mechancial feedback to the player. But how much money is all this electronic wonderment going to cost, and how much weight will it add to the guitar, and how will it be incorporated into the cabinet, and how will the electrical and electronic safety measures required to make it safe for us to play be implemented - and by whom?

Going full digital doesn't remove the electronic complexity, it just adds the additional problems of the probable requirement to use a clocked system, D to A and A to D conversions (pedal pressure and movement are analogue signals which have to be digitised and then converted back again at the changer - or whatever replaces it) and all the problems of on-site servicing, diagnostics, replacement parts, suppliers discontinuing certain "mission-critical" integrated circuits or other electronic components required to build and maintain the system, or lower-quality imported components being used which reduce the overall integrity of the whole steel-guitar electronic control and feedback system.

All this assumes we will still have pedals and knee-levers which actuate all this electronic wizardry. If you go to a totally different control-system with no pedals or levers, then it can't technically be called a pedal-steel guitar any nmore, can it?

As I said in a previous thread, what we have in our current steel-guitars is far from ideal, but it is inherently simple, players can understand it and maintain it in the field, and the manufacture of the components is well within the capabilities of anyone who can use some fairly straightforward machine-tools. Basically, it works, we know why it works and when it stops working we (the owner/player) can usually fix it, or at least diagnose the problem with reasonable accuracy.

Now, I am not saying we shouldn't embrace change, but it is one thing to have change simply because it is change, and quite another to have change because it gives us a better product. The first is divisive, demoralising and usually only serves the best interests of those who implemented the changes in the first place. The second enriches the playing experience.

So, if someone really believes in the concept of an all-electronic servo-system controlled pedal-steel guitar, then let him build one. Better still, let him build a hundred. Take the best production model to the ISGC. Let's hear it being played, lets see how well-built it is, how maintainable it is, how easy to comprehend what is happening beneath the necks really is. Then let the marketplace decide. See how long his hundred in-stock guitars take to sell.

[James Mayer]

Hmmm. Seems to me, a car with power steering has better handling and feels more responsive to the driver.

[Mike Perlowin]

I think a "Hydraulic" steel guitar will come first.

I believe it's been tried, and the resultant guitar was weighed a gazillion pounds, and leaked.

Today's steels work pretty darn good. Maybe a solenoid operated changer might be better, but I for one am happy with what I've got.

[John Billings]

I forgot the "smiley face". It was a joke! IMO, "hydraulic" and "solenoid" guitars would be more complex, and less responsive, than the purely mechanical guitars we already have.

[Jim Pitman]

I'm an EE in the automation/motion control biz, specifically semiconductor fab equipment. I also play pedal steel and made and sold pickups for a while.
I've done a quick feasibility study. The technical issues I'd want to get addressed before commiting time and money are:
1. How much torque? I believe I've heard 20lbs of linear force is typical. Some one correct me if I'm wrong. That much force takes it out of the range of a linear analog solenoid, at least one small enough that you could fit 10 in the undercarriage of a steel guitar and you wouldn't need a substation to power.
2. How about a linear step motor?
Haydon makes a line of stepper motors with integral lead screw. The mechenaical advantage of the lead screw greatly increses the torque. The smallest one is 0.8" square and can pull about 40lbs, 2x what is needed. It costs about $60.00. However, It may not be resolved enough so that we are happy with the pitch accuracy.
Can anyone comment on how much a 3/4" changer finger needs to rotate per cent of pitch change?
3. How complex are the controls?
Quite. I believe we would need to use what the CNC industry uses for a communication bus so to be fast enough to link any pedal to any motor in real time. I would also put encoders on the pedals so we get quickly into the digital domain. Off the shelf controls can do the job but would be expensive ~ $5000.00.
Assuming the resolution issue doesn't blow it out of the water it looks feasible anyway.

[John Billings]

But,,, if any part fails on a gig, you'd better be a good non-pedal player. It's not that I'm a "traditionalist," and it's not that I think another operating system couldn't work,,,,,,,,,, I just think that the current system has been highly developed, works very well, is relatively easy to work on, is reliable, etc.. Interesting to speculate about though!

[b0b]

Hmmm. Seems to me, a car with power steering has better handling and feels more responsive to the driver.

You're joking, right?

[Ben Jones]

remember when synthesizers were gonna replace EVERY instrument? according to my teachers in grade school, I was going to be working a 10 hour week and have loads of free time to ride around in my rocket car because robots were going ot be doing all the work for me in the "future". Here we are working 40 hour weeks with no rocket cars or R2D2's to do the dirty work.

people will always want real strings, real wind instruments, real percussion..and real pedal steel.

I cannot think of asingle instrument that has been replaced by or elimnateed entirely by modern tech. Even your example of the keys doesnt float for me. When you go see a concert pianist is he or she playing a yamaha DX7? or a steinway grand? why do B3 players have to hire moving vans to haul therir rig to the gig? cause the sims dont cut it.

people want the real thing,. They also want retro sounds and outdated tech. Otherwise there'd be no more non pedal steel. The instrument could be forgotten and die over hundreds of years, but never replaced or sufficently immmitated.

Unless of course like my grade school teachers might have suggested, in the future you will simply eat a pill when you want to hear or see the most amazing concert ever or eat a fine meal.

This is so unfair, i really was looking forward to those rocket boots