Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 26 Feb 2008 11:13 pm

Let topic continue. This time without any deviation from the topic, please.

Aside from what Mr. Rhodes' hippie parents' generation gave birth to [questionable fashion and personal hygiene, flexible mores, other-worldly (read "unproductive") intellectual pursuits, and the overall championing of mediocrity], at least some have wondered lately about what that generation spawned (as well as preserved) musically.

At least one has admitted to being something of a musical "conservative", so we know that we can't apply generalizations to EVERY member of what we believe is now a black mark of a time period. But lack of practice, sloppiness, meandering (non-dynamic) solos, loud volume, distortion, and mostly inarticulate lyrics are but just a few characteristics. Oh yeah, and jam bands. Embarassed Rolling Eyes

So what musical characteristics have survived from that era that would be considered a worthwhile legacy? I know there are more than a few hippies, practicing and non-practicing, on this Forum, so it would be interesting to hear your take on this.[/b]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 26 Feb 2008 11:18 pm

I'm reading Phil Lesh's book on the Grateful Dead right now, and it's pretty amazing what contraband-fueled imagination and a lot of money can do for a PA system. He talks about the Dead's "wall of sound," how it came to be, how they were the first band to use a white noise generator to EQ a room, those Alembic instruments with 50 knobs on 'em---very little politics, pretty good read.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 26 Feb 2008 11:22 pm

Stephen, what's the title of the book -- I might want to read it.

I remember seeing a movie of a Grateful Dead Concert back in the mid to late 70's. It was pretty good.

Speaking of the Dead and Hippies -- anyone read the book, Electric Coolaide Acid Test? It's really good if you're interested in the topic of how the acid scene started. It's by Tom Wolf if I remember correctly.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Feb 2008 3:35 am

I would say the environmental movement is spawned from this era.
Both the rationalists and the fringes, for good or bad.

NOT trying to make this political it is PURELY an observation.

Next the technology of electric guitars and amps,
but also the acoustic pickup technology was given
a big push by this generations demands.

I think the freedom to mix :
soul music AKA race music, blues and jazz
together and pull from other musical traditions
was very much a part of this scene.

The 'Magic Stage' 1st used by Terry and Bill Hanley
at hippie icon Woodstock is now a staple of stage gear world wide.
I worked on one last weekend
AND on Bill's original contraption.

The resurgence of Bluegrass and 'Americana' music back
to a MUCH more mainstream position is clearly
from the hippies search for musical roots,
both of rock, and from the 50-60's beat poet
and folk music traditions.

There has been little mention of the BRITISH hippies.
It is hard to not think of Cream as a hippie blues band.

Peter Fonda ain't around much,
but Jack Nicolson and Dennis Hopper
are still here and cultural icons to boot.

I love the movie Hopper did with Kiefer Sutherland.
Flashback.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099581/
The original Hippies thread totally made me think of this 1990 film.
A must rent/see in relation to this discussion.

OK like it or not the hippies DID draw country music
closer to the main stream. I guess for as long as it could last.

One place it HAS lasted is in the films.
About the ONLY place,
we still hear classic country.

Not all hippies smelled bad, most smelled fine,
many became rather excellent herbalists and perfumers.
This was in parallel to the expansion and study
of holistic health management methodologies
and melding of eastern and western forms.
The idea that you could look abroad or far afield
for ideas was part of the hippie culture

Not every country boy avoided his momma cuffin' him
up side da haed cause he smelled like road-apples.

Hair got long, but heck it was long before that
and not just powdered wigs on Whigs.
It was part of a ongoing change of style cycle.
Whiffles and crew cuts were natural
for a post WWII generation. But the young ALWAYS
take their own path.

Not every one with hippie leanings LOOKED the part,
and not every one looking the part
ALSO were cut from the same philosophical cloth.

In general there was a civility extended TO
the older unchanging and un-accepting conservatives,
more often than the other way round.
A tolerance of difference is a way of looking at that.

Not ALL would agree that is a good thing.
There is the crux of this biscuit.

Those who would dictate; be our way or we hassle you,

and those that say; Within reasonable constraints,
be your self and grow as you can into the most you can be.

These are several of the legacies of this time.
Several that seem purely social also apply musically.
Music often was the transmitter of these ideas.
More so then than now.

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 27 Feb 2008 5:38 am

NOT trying to make this political it is PURELY an observation.

The music of the Hippie Generation, and let's go further back, to Woody Guthrie, then Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary, was political in nature. Communicating to politicians and the everyman, the social injustices imposed on the citizens of the day. Had these "political in nature songs", some, in your face, others using humor, not been allowed, our country would not have grown.

If I Had A Hammer- Peter Paul and Mary
Eve of Destruction- Barry McGuire
Society's Child- Janis Ian
For What It's Worth- Buffalo Springfield
Alice's Restaurant- Arlo Guthrie
The Merry Minuet- Kingston Trio

just a few examples. This is not my opinion... it is history.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 27 Feb 2008 7:09 am

the electric acid kool aid test is a real piece of americana
it's a must read fer those who wish to understand that "epoque"
what blew me away when i read it, was when in 1965 as the hippie movement was just beginning to take off, ken kesey told his pranksters & mob, to take it furthur this time but without the acid
off course the whole thing fell apart, & all us newcomers took off from there flyin' the freak flag high
Lord have Mercy, it took me about 10 years before i got straight
Moby Grape were one of my favorites !
i was'nt much of a Deadhead since i was from New Yawk y'understand
but i sure dug on Jimi at the Café Wha? before he hit it big time

the Beatles & Stones put aside, Frank Z & his Mothers had us out there in left field pretty early in the game
didja get any on ya' ?

ok boys & girls, just stick to Musik & my good Capt' won't have to lock it up

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Feb 2008 7:30 am

I played electric guitar as a teenager. When I got to San Francisco in 1967 I gave it up for a while. The bands seemed so advanced to me - far beyond anything that I was capable of.

A few years later I saw Jerry playing a pedal steel, and my world changed again. Whether hippies helped or hurt American music may be an open question, but "hippie music" had a very positive influence on my life, ultimately leading to the creation of this Steel Guitar Forum. It's like that television series "Connections" - one thing led to another which led to another and so on, and here we are today.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 27 Feb 2008 7:49 am

Tom...Searching For The Sound

Here is another one, which is a great resource on their sound system. Especially interesting is the information on the Wall Of Sound and also how Alembic got started. Their sound system was way ahead of its time, and went far in influencing future sound systems.

Michael Winter · Post by **Michael Winter** » 27 Feb 2008 7:57 am

Tom,
The book by Phil is called Searching for the Sound - My life with the Grateful Dead.
Check your local dollar store as that's where I found my copy! As a matter of fact, if they don't have it, I have extra copies... I grabbed the last 4 copies on the shelf to send out to friends and family that might be interested! Less than $5 bucks!
Let me know if you want one. They are nice hardback copies too!
The read is good. Phil's formal music education certainly gave him a unique angle in his style of rhythm.
From wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lesh
"Lesh had never played bass before joining the band, which meant he learned "on the job", but it also meant he had no preconceived attitudes about the instrument's traditional "rhythm section" role. Indeed, he has said that his playing style was influenced more by Bach counterpoint than by rock or soul bass players (although one can also hear the fluidity and power of a jazz bassist such as Charles Mingus or Jimmy Garrison in Lesh's work)."
After reading the book, now whenever I listen to the dead, I've been really zoning into Phil's bass and it's just unreal!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Feb 2008 8:12 am

Phil's playing was certainly one of the
bigger reasons why they sounded like no-one else.
And the breadth of styles he learned on the job
is quite wide for now, but especially for then.

If you tried to learn one of his parts,
you suddenly found it much more difficult
than you first expected,
but also much more interesting too.

"Come hear Uncle John's band
by the riverside.
Bring a friend or come alone
we've come to take the children home."

Not exactly a wild, divicive,
ruin of the country, sentiment. No?

Michael Winter · Post by **Michael Winter** » 27 Feb 2008 8:16 am

Speaking of the 60's...
Has anybody seen the recent movie release Across the Universe?
We just rented it the other night, and this movie absolutely blew me away!
Go to the website here http://www.sonypictures.com/homevideo/a ... euniverse/ and then click enter the site to check things out.
It's just a brilliant interpretation of song with a neat perspective. The costumes/characters were great, and appearances by Joe Cocker and Bono were totally fun!
I don't want to spoil the party... You must watch it yourself.

By the way... This movie is totally psychedelic.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Feb 2008 8:28 am

b0b wrote:... "hippie music" had a very positive influence on my life, ultimately leading to the creation of this Steel Guitar Forum...

Well! Then, I think anyone reading this needs to stop right now and THANK HIPPIES AND HIPPY MUSIC for contributing to the creation of this very FORUM! Are there any questions??
.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 27 Feb 2008 8:34 am

Okay, I'm not afraid to admit it.

I have never listened to the Dead.

That's right.

Oh sure, I've heard a little here, a little there, but I've never not once sat down and gave them a real hard listen. Many of my good friends are/were into them, but I just never got into that scene.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument that now that I'm over 40, I'll be able to get past all the stereotypes and deeprooted punkrock prejudices of my misspent youth and give them an honest listen. I'm not sure I'll be able to, mind you, but I'm going to give it a try.

So I ask you: What is the ONE Dead record you'd recommend? I'm particulary interested in listening to the bass player as discussed above. I would request that there be no hyper-extended jams in this recommendation, and in particular do NOT want to hear about any 45 minute versions of "Dark Star" if possible.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Feb 2008 8:41 am

Well! Then, I think anyone reading this needs to stop right now and THANK HIPPIES AND HIPPY MUSIC for contributing to the creation of this very FORUM! Are there any questions??

I agree. I think this is more than just happenstance.

Like 'em or not, the hippies espoused and popularized the notion of an open and free culture. Mind you, they certainly didn't invent it - not by a long shot. But they were a widely viewed physical embodiment of that type of culture. IMO, this ultimately led to a significant and stable subculture rooted along these lines. I think the presence of that subculture led to the type of thinking that led to the current manifestation of the www, the open-source software movement, and a lot of other things that I think would have been stifled without its presence.

My opinions, of course.

One Dead record? American Beauty would be my choice.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 27 Feb 2008 8:42 am

American Beauty, for a studio recording.

And for live stuff, Europe '72.

Michael Winter · Post by **Michael Winter** » 27 Feb 2008 9:01 am

Hmmm...
And let me add to that a great acoustic set:

Reckoning 1981

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckoning_ ... ead_album)

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 27 Feb 2008 9:03 am

Anyone wanting to listen to some Dead can do so from their computer right now.

Here is a link to recordings of Live shows, by year:
http://www.archive.org/browse.php?colle ... field=year

Streaming GD (and GD related bands):
http://www.gdradio.net/

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 27 Feb 2008 9:05 am

You guys are gonna think I've lost my mind on this, but u like ad recommend the that silly "Sargent Pepper" movie with the Bee Gees and Peter Frampton.

Because the album was such a monumental social and cultural event in 1967, everybody expected something equally monumental from the film. Instead it's a silly kiddie movie.

But what nobody noticed is that it's a GREAT silly kiddie movie, utterly charming. And the music is fantastic. The interpretations of the Beatles' song are often superior to the Beatles' own recordings.

It's not what people wanted or expected, but it succeeds on it's own terms.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 27 Feb 2008 9:12 am

b0b said:

A few years later I saw Jerry playing a pedal steel, and my world changed again.

We DO have a lot to be thankful for, don't we?

When the Dead were off, they could be horrible, but when they were ON, they could often-times be absolutely brilliant. They were not your typical 1-4-5 rock band. Check out "Eyes of the World" sometime. DLD mentioned "breadth of styles." So true. I've always thought it a shame that a lot of people couldn't see past the hippie/psychedelic stereotype, and really see and appreciate Jerry's musical savvy and prowess.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Feb 2008 9:19 am

American Beauty is lovely.
But I would vote for Working Mans Dead.
As an introduction for a trad country player,
it likely is a nice enough transition.
A super album I repurchased last year and keep in the truck.

My Burma hilltribe mountain girl wife
likes it a lot too. And she NEVER had the chance
to be prejudiced by this socio-historical debate.
She just listens and sings to it. She is a
gospel music head from youth.

More to their traditional roots side,
and very clean, little live wandering.
Nods to many olde timey
and bluegrass genres
and fine song crafting.
Cumberland Blues has stop more than
one band I was in from pulling it off.

Likened to Byrds Sweatheart of the Rodeo.
Nitty Gritty's Uncle Charlie and his Dog Teddy.

For styles drawn upon, they really could be
described as the most 'american' of bands.
Without any hint of jingoist connotations.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 27 Feb 2008 10:27 am

Alot of the reason that alot of the music (among other things) from that period is so bad in retrospect is because it was a period of rabid experimentation in all areas of life and at every level. And that is the reason so many people HATE hippies so avidly. Because they didn't just ignore what had theretofore been social and musical boundaries but actively pusued the destruction of those boundaries to the greatest extent possible. And too much was never enough. Ah, those were the days.

While alot from that period deservedly went by the wayside, I can hear alot of Brian Wilson's inventions across the board in today's music from country to hip-hop.

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 27 Feb 2008 10:36 am

The thing to remember about Phil is, that he had had violin lesons as a kid and spent his teenage years playing trumpet as well as writing some "avant garde" orchestra pieces concurrent with that. So he was not a true idiot savant so far as the bass goes- he just applied what he knew about music to it & took it his own direction.
And I too would second that book reccomendation!
For me, if you want to pick ONE GD album- that's kind of hard because there actually were three or four (or five) different Grateful Deads over time, depending on who was playing keyboards. Each period has its own distinct flavor and idiosyncracy. I prefer the 1970's version with one drummer and Godchaux on piano- so I would recommend Europe 72 as well, BUT, the live album "One From the Vault" recorded just three years later shows how they could be tight, hot and together even with the double-drum sound. For me, that was always the Achilles heel for them, for after a decade or so with 2 drums, their music seemed completely cluttered up and bogged down- every single beat possible would get played, denying the musical wisdom that "an understatement is more often better than an overstatement." A far cry from the one-drummer period, where often the drums allowed the rest of the instruments to breathe and form space.
But this is just one afficianado's opinion!

And as for the general topic? Well, Hippies sure did a lot less to hurt American music, I think, than did Lawrence Welk!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Feb 2008 10:53 am

Normally, I expect the bass player to hold down the bottom of the chord progression and stay in time. Not much else.

Phil Lesh is the exception. His bass lines are melodic, like the low voice in a Bach composition. The chord progression and timing are there, but there's so much more. There are a lot of "busy" bass players who play over the tune like jazz horn players. Not Phil. His lines provide a constant awareness of the progression when you're listening to another instrument, but when you focus on him there's a whole nuther dimension there at the same time.

He's always been my hero of bass players.

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 27 Feb 2008 11:12 am

b0b-I think the reason I want someone around playing bass for me who's not heavily influenced by Phil on bass (as I was myself!) is exactly that reason.
Someone that plays an elemental fundamental bass I think does more for the music than someone who goes off on tangents- the reason Phil gets away with it is (generally) his more sound conception of musical theory than your average jam-band bassist. Copycats are a dime a dozen but originals are unique!

Eric Jaeger · Post by **Eric Jaeger** » 27 Feb 2008 12:58 pm

Mark Lind-Hanson wrote:b0b-I think the reason I want someone around playing bass for me who's not heavily influenced by Phil on bass (as I was myself!) is exactly that reason.
Someone that plays an elemental fundamental bass I think does more for the music than someone who goes off on tangents- the reason Phil gets away with it is (generally) his more sound conception of musical theory than your average jam-band bassist. Copycats are a dime a dozen but originals are unique!

I think you just have to understand context. I learned bass in principle from Phil Lesh and Jack Cassady, but I play tic-tac and slap style if the song want it.

But for a great example of a complex bass line that *sounds* simple and really drives the song, listen to "Friend of the Devil" from American Beauty. Or is it that it sounds simple but isn't? (a sing of true elegance)

As for the Dead, as noted there are a number of different "Deads". "Live Dead" and "Europe 72" are nothing like each other. "Dead Set" is different again.

-eric

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Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

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