Emmons PP with Crawford Cluster: PICS Added

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Feb 2008 6:06 am

I have committed (based on inspection) to buying a black PP D-10 that has the Crawford Cluster. I haven't seen the guitar yet and have never owned, much less, made adjustments to one. However, the man I am buying it from said he will spend the day with me making any changes that I might want and orienting me on how to make adjustments. My question is about the Crawford Cluster. My understanding is that these are KL's that work in both directions. If this is the case, what are the changes and how in the world would you keep all that is going on in adjustment on a PP? I believe the man said this might have been one of Jimmy's PP's. Feedback please!

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 17 Feb 2008 6:23 am

Tim - you might want to consider buying Bobbe Seymour's video on setting up and maintaining the Emmons push-pull.

Dale Hansen · Post by **Dale Hansen** » 17 Feb 2008 6:40 am

Tim,
The "Cluster" does not employ levers that work in both directions. All of the levers move only either left or right, (or up) just as on any other guitar.
They were nicknamed the "Crawford Cluster" due to the number,(10 levers x 10 pedals)and intimidating appearance of the set-up.
This is not a "one-size fits all" guitar either.
The guitar needs to fit you pretty well, especially the knee levers, to use it comfortably.
Also, it requires meticulous attention to any adjustments. It requires a very delicate balance of slack, and tension to keep it all working right.
On a push-pull, almost everything mechanically affects something else.
You might do well to talk to Mike "Cookie Monster" Jones, about it for better info than I can give you.
I believe he's had, (or still has) a few of these "extreme" guitars.

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Feb 2008 6:59 am

Dale,

Intimidating is exactly what I'm thinking. However, I've wanted to have a PP for quite a while. I'll keep my all pull so that I can have at least one playable guitar, if and when I get the PP out of wack! Having become a believer that changes/additions are difficult to make on a PP I thought if I could find one in good shape, loaded for bear, I would buy it if I had the money. SO, this one just might be the one to eat me alive.

I definitely want to play the guitar. I can see where ergonomics are critical to be able to use that many KL's. Isn't it a cluster of 5 KL's including 1 vertical on the left side?

Do you know what the particular changes were on these KL's? OR, were they evolving as Jimmy seemed fit?

I need to see if I can find his copedant somewhere.

Fred Amendola · Post by **Fred Amendola** » 17 Feb 2008 7:02 am

Tim,
There are 5 knee levers on the left leg, which is the cluster. But it's not as bad as it sounds:

There is a primary LKL raising the E's to F, in the normal location front to back, positioned say under the C neck, behind your knee.

There is a primary LKR lowering the 2nd D to C# and the 6th G# to F#. It is also in the normal position front to back, around say between the necks,

Now there is also a normal LKV, lowering the B's.

Now the tricky part.
There is a secondary LKL, more towards the front of the guitar that you normally miss unless you nudge forward a little. That lowers the G#'s to G.

There is a secondary LKR, almost at the back apron, set pretty wide, that you also don't hit when using the primary LKR. This lever lowers the 2nd all the way down to a C for some really cool Jimmie stuff.

That's really it. The RKL lowers the E's, and the RKR raises the second back up to the "normal" Eb and lowers the 9th to C#.

There is also some E9 stuff on the 10th pedal which raises 2 to an E and 1 to a G. I think there was E9 stuff on the 9th pedal also at one time, but I don't know what.

Hope this helps.
Fred

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 17 Feb 2008 7:05 am

Tim, the "Crawford Cluster" means 5 knee levers for the left knee on E9: 2 moving left, 2 moving right, and 1 vertical. This is how the undercarriage looks like on an Emmons PP:

In the booklet "A Manual of Style", Jimmy Crawford is interviewed about his cluster. One page shows his copedent, the next has some photos of the cluster "in action":

Hope that clears the mystery up a bit.

Rainer

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Feb 2008 7:16 am

Fred,

Thanks! That's a big help.I have LKL raising the E's to F and RKL lowering the E's. Otherwise, there's alot of knew stuff (ALOT!). The seller said he would set it up how I asked. I need Emmons and my E's to remain consistant on both guitars. This guy is a very good PSG tech, so I guess this change wouldn't be too much? Otherwise, I think I'd like to leave it alone and TRY to play it.

Is there a reason to leave the E's where they are for certain "Jimmy" chord inversions and phrases? Thanks again.

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Feb 2008 7:24 am

Rainer,

You have completely answered all questions. WOW! I'll print this off today and start to study it. YEP, that's more guitar than I need, but if I live as long as I plan to, I might squeeze a song out of it one day!

Thanks!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 17 Feb 2008 8:19 am

Although I've got 5 levers on my left knee it is not a Crawford concept (which I knew nothing about when I designed my setup (12 string, 8 + 8). But regardless, don't be intimidated by the body moves necessary to get at your front & back levers. It's not difficult to get accustomed to. However the ergonomics are important and I'd have had some problems if I hadn't considered that when I calculated the positions of each lever on my factory-ordered Carter & Fessenden. My 12 string pp is a case in point---the guitar fits me pretty poorly and unlike my AP guitars, it is not given to simple lever repositioning. Personally, I'd have some concerns about this if I were picking a loaded guitar off the rack (pre-made, as in your case.) I happen to be short so this is a special factor for me.
I also have never gotten comfortable with any left knee lever combination involving the vertical + a lateral lever--something that seems to be a part of the Crawford concept. But now I want to give it some more consideration.

Something that I must always remind myself of when discussion ergonomics, custom made guitars and "I can't play this guitar the way the levers are positioned"---------------how many of us got our first steels and learned to play them the way they were because....that's the way they were! You get used to what you've got when that's what you've got.
If you do go for this one, cool! That's a whole lotta guitar. Could be a treasure.

--and BTW, thank you Rainer for that material. Very informative.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Feb 2008 2:27 pm

Wow, for the first time ever, all great advice here. I have been using this Jimmy Crawford "cluster" set up for 36 years on my main recording guitar. It is beyond incredible and it will give no trouble at all if you get it right and leave it alone. Adapt yourself to it, not it to you.
I can and will help you in anyway possible with this guitar, (Nashville) I have and and most likly will build more of these "Cluster Guitars" in the future myself, everything you will ever want to use to play is there. Plus an incredible tone (the best). Give yourself plenty of time to get used to it when you get it. It will feel strange at first. It took me a long time, even playing seven nights a week and doing TV and sessions in the seventies.
The only thing wrong with this picture is that the guitar will weigh more than your car! $:\$

I also have all parts for this guitar.

Bobbe

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Feb 2008 4:08 pm

Dang Bobbe, I drive a 3/4 ton dooly! Thank God I don't! I really don't mind the weight too bad. I'm only 51, HA! I will take you up on the help. I have a son at Belmont and frequent Nashville often. I'll call ahead and plan a trip to your shop.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Feb 2008 8:52 am

Tim, looking forward to seeing you!
Bobbe

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 20 Feb 2008 6:44 pm

Hey Tim loan it to me for 20 years so I can get as comfortable as Bobbe...LOL..I have a nice WARM room for it.....Mickey

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 21 Feb 2008 5:47 pm

I picked up the guitar yesterday and it is SN 1065D. Can anyone help me with year and anything else? BTW, it's black and really sounds better than real good. Tyler "the Kid" Hall, I'm going to convert this from a Day setup to the Emmons! HA! I'd love to see what you could do with this axe. I told the Bishop about it and he started his same old song and dance...Gotta love Bill. Look forward to seeing you guys soon.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 Feb 2008 6:11 pm

Tim, your guitar should be a 1966 bolt-on. For my own edification, I've been compiling a list of original issue Emmons guitars from 1964 to 1968 for awhile. For my records, is it black or rosewood, what color is the flocking, and how many pedals does it have?

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 21 Feb 2008 6:16 pm

Herb, Thanks! It is black mica and has black flocking , 8X10 with a Crawford Cluster. LOTS of guitar. I will be moving it to Emmons, otherwise, it is real sweet! It has polished aluminum KL's, with the typical Emmons "paddle". BUT, they really fit well. They seem a little longer than the flat black ones like I had on my LL III. Thanks for the help. Checking back in soon; I'm bonding right now, HA!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 Feb 2008 6:23 pm

as far as the crawford cluster goes...at least you've got all the parts necessary for any set-up you might decide on!!

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 21 Feb 2008 7:02 pm

Chris, this axe is MORE than intimidating. I have never played a PP, but with all the hype, I knew there was some meat on the bone. SO, I happened upon this one and the fella that sold it to me ask me to play it and not sell it. I set it up last night with some beyond dead strings and I can understand why there is a PP cult. I'm in! I can't wait to have it overhauled and have whatever I decide on as a copedant. Fortunately, my copedant is close to Buck Reid's, who was a close friend of Jimmy Crawford's. Hopefully, everything will fall into place. If not, I'll still have a really nice guitar. Now it's back under the hood. Herb, have you got me an update on the year of the steel? Thanks in advance. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 22 Feb 2008 5:08 am

Tim, I bought a P/P several years ago and knew zero about the mechanics. The E9th neck was setup almost exactly the opposite as I wanted. After a little research on the web and this forum, I dug into it myself. That was the best decision I ever made. If you are mechanically inclined at all, GO FOR IT. The best way to learn all about a P/P is to get in there and make some changes and see how it all works. The guys here on the forum are very helpful and the act of reworking one will demystify the whole thing. Good luck and God Bless. Whip

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 22 Feb 2008 5:41 am

I bought my push/pull from Bobbe
back in 1985 and just like Whip
says "I didn't know anything about it"
It was set up the way I like it
and if you don't change the string
guages it stays very close in tune.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 22 Feb 2008 5:54 am

Whip & Rick,

I spent several hours last night cleaning up the guitar and studying the PP mechanics. I'm trying to build up the nerve to "dive in" and make the changes. Based on Herb's dating of this guitar, I can't hardly believe it is a 66 bolt on. The guitar is really cleaning up well. The mica is cleaning up great and the aluminum is slowly polishing up. I believe I will have it ready for a photo op by late tonight. I will post for you PP fans to see this weekend. This was a rare and fortunate find! Can't wait to get it set up!

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 22 Feb 2008 7:20 pm

Good Luck Tim:::: I had one of those babies for about 12 years and it is sorta tricky at first but after you make a few mistakes you will get the hang of it so just get started one lever at a time at first, just remember it has to have slack to work properly in all positions,be sure to use """Tri-Flo""" oil on all the moving parts & changer, it will come out fine my friend

TOMMY YOUNG
MAX-TONE MODIFICATIONS
WHEN YOUR GUITARS TONE HAS TO BE ITS VERY BEST

Ivan Posa · Post by **Ivan Posa** » 22 Feb 2008 10:01 pm

Herb, I have a black D10 Bolt-on # 2876 which I will be bringing with me to Dallas next month to sell. It used to belong to Barbara Mandrell at some stage as it has her name stamped underneath the body. Can you tell me anything about it? I look forward to meeting you in Dallas.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Feb 2008 10:10 pm

Ivan
It was made in 1966. I already have you on my list.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 24 Feb 2008 6:11 am

Herb:
How can 1065 and 2876 both be 1966 year models ?

Old Bud