A Teaching/Learning Problem

[Les Anderson]

I have a young fellow who shows up at my house twice a week who wants to buy and learn to play my D8 steel. He plunks around on an acoustic guitar at home but, wants to learn to play a steel and preferably one without pedals to start with. Fine and dandy with me.

The problem is, this kid does not seem to have an ear for when to follow a chord change or to hear notes and move to the right harmonizing chord. His timing is always a full beat to two or three beats off by the time he moves his bar to the needed chord.

I have to admit that I am part of the problem in teaching him because after fifty years of music, I can hear the music mentally, feel what’s coming, can hear mentally bridges, fills & rides and so on in my head a dozen beats before I get to them. I know that you can’t teach a beginner that mental pre-preparedness that’s going on in a long time player’s head.

To make a long story shorter, is there some kind of literature out there that can help this kid? Maybe a better method to teach him how to learn chords on a D8 and to get the timing down a bit better? I don’t have a studied, musical theory education: everything I do in music is going on in my head. I know the bare basics of theory but that’s about it.

Are there any suggestions from you gurus for ways that I can help this guy out.?

[Bob Borzelleri]

Les...

If what you are looking for is a good book on theory that most folks can resist sticking in a drawer somewhere and forgetting about, then I might suggest "Edly's Music Theory for Practical People, 2nd edition" by Ed Roseman.

It's a bit lighthearted with pictures and charts and such. Maybe you could work with him getting into the book for a period and then the hands on sessions might begin to make sense for him.

...Bob

[Edward Meisse]

If he can't get it by the feel, I suggest teaching him how to count out the beats and measures. What theory is really about is getting a person to play music mechanicly until they get their body and mind trained to do it by instinct. But a theory book is a good idea anyway. Knowing theory has really helped me alot. I recommend it to everybody.

[Doug Beaumier]

I agree. COUNTING is the answer to a timing problem. All he has to do is count to 4... over and over again. Write out some chord charts using major and minor chords, and have him follow the charts, counting 4 beats per measure or per chord written, etc. It would be helpful if you strum rhythm guitar while he plays, or better yet, if you have the band-in-a-box program, burn him a CD of rhythm tracks to play along with. There are also some excellent play-along tracks out there that he might benefit from, for example Steve Alcotts tracks.

[Tim Carlson]

One-e-and-a, Two-e-and-a,.... If he's not yet a teenager, rhythm and timing are the place to start. If he is a teenager, and still has no rhythm, you've got an uphill battle in front of you.

[Alan Kirk]

If he is a teenager, and still has no rhythm, you've got an uphill battle in front of you.

Studies have shown that the foundation for a musical ear is created prior to puberty. This is especially true for pitch, which would relate to hearing chord changes.

I'm not saying there's no hope, but I agree with Tim that beginning musical training as a teenager is a huge challenge.

Does he have any musical background at all? School band? Singing in church?

I work with kids ages 6 to 16. Some of them just do not have what it takes to become musicians. Sad but true. No matter how hard they try or how much time they invest, they will not be able to learn a musical instrument and achieve any degree of success or satisfaction.

That's part of what is so tragic about so many American schools' not teaching music any more.

American educational philosophy these days seems to be "Give 'em all calculators and let them become accountants!"

P.S. The best method I've found for freeing up peoples' rhythmic abilities is to get them to "dance the beat" by swaying their bodies with the music, clapping, counting, playing the beat with drum sticks. You have to get the muscles involved. (Don't get me started on why Western culture has no rhythm.)

[Tim Carlson]

On another note, it might be a good idea for YOU to learn some music HE already knows(even if you HATE that music), then teach him to play that, to start with. Even if I've never looked at the music, or even tried to play a certain song, I can pick up something from the classic rock station, and be playing with all the changes by the time the song is over and have it down pat after about 10 "repeats". Familiarity with a certain piece makes it much easier to know when the changes are coming.

[Les Anderson]

The boy is almost 19 years old and was pretty much born into country music because of his parents. They both listen to nothing but country.

I received an E-mail from another forumite last night who came up with a great suggestion....... I also play country bass and he suggested that instead of getting him to understand rhythm and timing on a steel, get him going on my electric bass first.

I think that may be the answer. The bass is a much less complicated instrument, not so many strings to work with and using frets should be a lot easier for him. It will also help to train his ear to pick out chord notations and changes.

So what do you guys think of this idea? (I haven't discussed this with the kid yet) Personally, I like the idea.

[Tim Carlson]

Sounds good. If he can't figure out the fundamental of the chords on a bass, buy the kid a basketball!

[Robert Harper]

I never had any musical training befoer picking up the 6 string at 32. I used an electronic drum machine. Whatever you do. Please don't give up. You and he both could have a very rewarding experience

[Charles Davidson]

I believe there is maybe a small percent of people that have no sence of rhythum,timing,meter,whatever term you may use,at all and NEVER will,I had a friend MANY years ago that could take a sixstring and play ANY chord,I mean advanced jazz chords that Kessel and those guys used.The different inversions all over the neck.But he could NOT play two bars of anything in meter,I would sit and play with him for hours,but he could never do it.NEVER DID,If you can't play in meter,you CAN'T play music.DYKBC.

[Robert Murphy]

I didn't start playing music seriously untill age 52. The dreaded metronome was my only hope.

[Alan Kirk]

Please allow me to clarify...

You don't need music lessons or need to play a musical instrument to develop fundamental musical perception skills. Lots of kids develop these abilities without any outside assistance. So even if you didn't start playing an instrument until later in life, you probably developed your skills of musical perception prior to that, just by enjoying and listening to music.

That being said, yes, there are people who just can't seem to do anything in rhythm. They are no fun to play with.

[Bill Hampton]

I can understand exactly what the kid is going through. I started on dobro about 2yrs ago and am having a terrible time keeping time.

What I have found that works for me is to slow the tempo WAY down (like 75 bpm) and count each note while tapping my foot. I know I look like an idiot to you guys that have years of experience behind you, but that is just what it takes for some of us.

I also got Band In A Box acouple of weeks ago and that is working out really well for me. I can start out as slow as I need to on a song and gradually get up to tempo.

[Todd Weger]

Please allow me to clarify...

You don't need music lessons or need to play a musical instrument to develop fundamental musical perception skills. Lots of kids develop these abilities without any outside assistance. So even if you didn't start playing an instrument until later in life, you probably developed your skills of musical perception prior to that, just by enjoying and listening to music.

That being said, yes, there are people who just can't seem to do anything in rhythm. They are no fun to play with.

Alan just took the words right out of my mouth. I know some folks who never played anything more than the radio until much later in life, but were able to pick up the concepts of playing an instrument fairly quickly. This is because of developing an awareness of musical principles at an early age, yet without realizing it.

Some, on the other hand, never do. I have a dear friend who soooooo desparately wants to learn to play guitar (she's 46), and bless her heart, has been trying for 20 years. Sadly, she's hopelessly non-musical, at least from a learning standpoint. She has great taste in music as a listener/appreciater, and loves a wide variety of things, but just never developed the ears or any kind of internal rhythm.

I used to work in a music store in the early/mid 80's, and I would hear teens come in and play all the latest 'hair-metal' guitar solos very fast, and very accurate. Yet, when they tried to play any type of rhythm, their timing was terrible. The concept of ensemble playing was just foreign to them, and they had a really hard time trying to work in a band.

There's a reason the metronome has been in use for a couple hundred years -- it's proven and it works. To those who argue that it's mechanical and robotic, I say it only makes one mechanical and robotic if one isn't musical to begin with. Whether a drum machine, or a metronome, get him on one to work with it, and learn to count without rushing or dragging the tempo. He'll have a really hard time until that happens.

Anyway, my .02 -- YMMV!

[Charles Davidson]

Todd, that's true about a lot of the kids today,They learn backwards,can play a burning lead solo,but don't have a CLUE about playing backup,Rhythum guitar playing is an art itself, A few that come to mind are Freddy Green,Walter Haynes,Eldon,and Ranger Doug,DYKBC.

[Les Anderson]

That's because all of their mess ups are covered up with noise, smoke, lights and running around on the stage.

If most of these hard rock and acid rock musicians ever had to play without all the stage distractions, they would be in a mess.

The kid who wants to learn to play my steel just cannot hear the chord changes yet nor can he feel a beat. It will come once he gets used to playing by count.

Tonight we take out my old 1956 or 57 Fender Precision bass guitar. I restrung it last night so it's ready to go.

I hope Hank Williams is ready for this.

[Charles Davidson]

Les,Not only the rockers,what about the [so-call] country crowd,some of them use enough theatrics that would put KISS to shame.DYKBC.

[Chris Walke]

"acid rock"...heh-heh.
I've never heard a kid use that term. Old hippies, yes, but not kids these days.

[Todd Weger]

"acid rock"...heh-heh.
I've never heard a kid use that term. Old hippies, yes, but not kids these days.

You know, old hippies never die -- they just smell that way!

[Chris Walke]

You know, old hippies never die -- they just smell that way!

Nice!

[Dennis Coelho]

The sad fact is, there are just some people who simply cannot do it. There are a variety of skills that have to come together to be able to play music: hearing (both physical and metal processing), aural memory, timing, rhythm, harmonic sense, hand-eye coordination, probably a bunch of other things.

Those of us who can do it, just take all this for granted. But if you plotted all the musicians in the world on a bell curve, you'd find those really wonderful players getting fewer and fewer as the talent gets greater and the curve approaches the far right.

It follows statistically, that for every one moving towards the upper end of the chart there is an equal number moving towards the lower end of the chart in terms of music ability. I've taught string instruments for nearly forty years and I have had a few students who just could not hear / feel either time or rhythm no matter what interventions we tried. And there were a few who just could not hear the differences in pitches at all. In both cases, they were drawn to music lessons by a desire for the social context of playing, and not the music itself.

[Charley Wilder]

I agree with the "Some people just can't do it" school. I taught five string banjo back in the 70's and Blues guitar in the 90's. I had two or three people over the years that JUST COULDN'T DO IT!! I tried EVERYTHING!! One kid on the banjo, I swear literally drove me to drink. After a session I had to have a double scotch to keep my sanity. The Blues student was the same. He realized it and sold his guitar and amp before I went complete nuts. The guy who helped me learn guitar back in the fifties was an "old" guy who played big band music. He could play any song in any key but couldn't name a chord. I once asked him how to play an E chord somewhere else on the neck and I had to show him the chord I meant. He then showed me about five different variations. Hey, it just the way it is.

[Les Anderson]

Well, we had our session last night and we had some fun. Instead of him working on the steel guitar, I did the steel playing while he picked away on the bass. It was a blow out at first because the kid had no concept of how to keep a beat; no matter how we approached it.

So, what we did was play a couple of the modern rock and modern country rock that he and his friends listen to. He could keep a good rhythm count with that music because he could follow the heavy bass beat in that music. However, when he did not have that “beat to follow”, he had problems grabbing it on his own.

We ended up turning on my wife’s keyboard and started working with the electronic metronome. Slowly, as my wife played Your Cheating Heart he began to identify the count.

I had the kid pick at the bass guitar strings, any strings, just so he could get his fingers and mind working together on a steady and even rhythm. There may be hope still; however, I think he has to get away from being lead in to the beat and begin learning to feel it himself.

Can he learn to play a steel guitar? I must admit, I have some reserved feelings about that. Learning to play a bass guitar; possibly.

[James Mayer]

I started playing guitar at 23. I had no prior musical training, not a lick. I don't dance, never have. I don't even sing in the car, nor in the shower.

I studied abroad, in Spain, in '99 so that I could learn flamenco guitar. It was a serious challenge. Before leaving, I learned some chords and played the hell out of one major scale pattern and basic cromatic patterns. I did this for hours on end, every day.

Flamenco rhythms are considered to be some of the most difficult to learn. I read an interview where guitar greats Al Dimeola and John Mclaughlin talk about playing with Paco De Lucia. The ONLY flamenco rhythms that they played in their collaborations were basic 4/4 rumbas. Paco had to come to them, and did so easily.

My point is that I wasn't developed at all, in any way, but I bougt a Mundobeat metronome(basically a drum machine with flamenco and "world" presets) and went at it.

When I hit a major rut, I purchased Guitar Scales Method and learned my scales, modes and how scales relate to chords. I memorized the freboard with free software, fretboardwarrior.com.

I'm now 32 and I can play guitar in several styles(flatpick, fingerpick, many different tunings), steel guitar, hybrid pedal steel, cumbus, and oud. I'm not a master of any of the above, but I can get by in just about any musical situation.

If I know the chord progression and /or key, I can improvise fairly well. That's actually my job in my band........leads and fills on the fly.

I'm not bragging, just making a point. Determination and persistence are more important than anything being discussed here. I'm never going to be a fantastic virtuoso, because I started too late. But, I get plenty of enjoyment out of playing music and have actually been paid well to do so. That's something I never thought would happen when I first touched a guitar.

Ears are the most important element, in my opinion. My musical ear is many many years behind the average musician's, but it's getting better and I'm using free ear training software to improve it. I don't even think about rhythm and timing, it's good enough. If it's not, it's back to the metronome. Technique and timing were the easiest to learn because there are direct proven ways to improve in those areas......it just comes down to how bad you want it.