Music Theory Question About Licks

[Carl Vilar]

This is what I'm trying to figure out for pedal steel. In a 6 string guitar if a country song is in the key of A I can take any f# blues scale and make it sound country againist the key of A. Key of D B blues scale and so forth. Anyway when I do this I'm not thinking of notes just position of those scales up and down the whole neck. I'm trying to apply this to the pedal steel just thinking in position how can I do this on the pedal steel hope you guys understand what I'm trying to do and remember I'm new to PSG.

[Mack Quinney]

Carl,
I know exactly what you are talking about for the 6 string guitar. I do exactly the same thing. I have not thought of it though in terms of Steel Guitar. Maybe tonight I will write out the notes in the F# blues scale you are talking about and see how that relates to pedal steel. I do know that you can do the same thing to get the E9th tuning to play C6 by using your RKL and going up to the (I think it's the 4th chord) and then play in that key.

Mack

[Lynn Griffith]

Carl, the notes of the F# blues scale are very similar to the A major scale, as the blues scale is a minor scale, and F# minor is the relative minor of A major. Stated more simply, the F# blues scale contains the notes A C# and E, which are the 3 notes of an A chord. That's pretty much why your idea works, as those 2 scales have a lot of notes in common. Lynn

[Larry Bell]

A I6 chord is IDENTICAL to a VImi7
Take the key of C, for example
C6 = C E G A
count up six scale tones from C (C-D-E-F-G-A) and the sixth tone is A
Ami7 = A C E G
EXACTLY THE SAME NOTES -- just a different scale orientation
ALSO . . .
one is in a minor key (Am) (with the 'blue note' b3)
the other is a major family chord (C6) with a major third

In any key the sixth chord adds the root tone of the relative minor. A sixth chord, in some ways, has characteristics of both a major and minor chord but the third is definitely major. You wouldn't think of Steel Guitar Rag as being in a minor key and many/most play that song on C6. In C6 you can move the bar up three frets and you have a Im7 chord. C6 open -- Cmi7 on the third fret.

[Carl Vilar]

I play E9 tuning I wrote out the notes in the f# blues scale for each fret open to 11 and tried it with a song in the key of A unless I made some errors which I have to double check it did't work out.

[Larry Bell]

That's because F# is the relative minor (VIm) of A, the same relationship as Am to C. It doesn't matter what tuning you play.

[David Doggett]

At first I thought Lynn had answered your question, but now I'm not so sure I understand your question. What do you mean by "blues scale?" When you use the straight relative minor chord, which is always located 1 1/2 steps (3 semitones, or 3 frets) below the I chord of the key as Lynn describes, you are still using exactly the same scale notes as the key. For example, looking at a piano, the C scale uses all the white notes, starting with C. The relative minor is Am, and that scale uses all the same white notes, but starting on A. So you can play the C scale and A minor scales over each other, and it's the same notes. But if you take the A blues scale, that implies that you flat the 3rd, 5th and 7th of the A scale. That would be C, Eb, and G. In the key of C, that would be the root, the flatted 3rd, and the 5th. So obviously the C and G are notes of the C scale and C chord, so they will work fine. The b5th of A may or may not work. That Eb is the same as the b3rd of the key of C. It can give it a minor sound, which may be inappropriate, but also a blues sound, which might work.

On pedal steel, you can get the relative minor by using the A pedal. Try that to get the same kind of thing you describe on 6-string. Another good place to go is to simply take the key chord and go up three frets to the bIII chord. That also gives some blues scale notes.

[I wrote this before seeing Larry's posts, but I think it still adds something to think about.]

[James Collett]

Wait a minute fellas, I see the problem.
There are 3 different kinds of minor scale:
1-natural
2-melodic
3-harmonic

Natural is the most common minor scale I think, which is just basically playing a relative major scale starting at the 6th.

Melodic is the same as natural but sharp the 6th (in the minor scale) and the 7th

Harmonic is only the 7th.

Try this site
, it should help.
Sorry I'm so dang'd confusing

[Carl Vilar]

The scale I was thinking of for example f# blues to be used over an A country progression would be
f#-a-b-c#-e

[Mack Quinney]

Carl,
Ok, working on the 6 string guitar working from the high notes to lower notes (decending) the scale I play is A F# E C# C B A. (and variations there of with the same notes.) Which is what I would play if I was playing blues in the key of F#. (Very close) But as you mentioned in the post you are in the key of A in a country format. Is this correct? Works great on the guitar.

Can't seem to make it work at the second fret on the steel. Some of notes are the same but pedals don't work at all and it doesn't sound correct at all.

Now if you go to the 10th fret with RKL engaged and play strings 4 5 6 7 you are playing C# A F# E which is a A6th. For the 4 chord go up the 15th fret same strings keeping RKL engaged, and 5 chord up to 17th fret same thing. With my warped brain I am playing in the key of D "position" on the neck, but really playing in the key of A with 6th chords. I think you are talking about the same type thing just using the blues scale.

If you find something that works with the blues scale let me know. I am very much insterested in this. My brain seems to go that way looking for an easy way out. Too much drinking in an earlier life.

Mack

[Carl Vilar]

Thanks Mack yep that's what I was looking for not knowing the pedal steel I didn't know which frets to go up to. I'm going to try to piece more of the neck together and see if I can make the same easy concept work on the PSG that I do on the 6 string.

[Jamie Howze]

Carl,
Many 6 string guitarists lean very heavily upon major and minor pentatonic scales for improvision. The blues scale is basically an extension of the minor pentatonic. That sounds what you are looking for.

Doug Beaumier, one of our long standing forum members, has an excellent presentation of pedal steel pentatonic basics on his site.
Jamie

[Mack Quinney]

Carl,
Sitting here thinking about it, I typed it wrong in that it is the Left Knee Right not Right Knee Left. Sorry about that. (or the knee lever that drops the 4th string a half tone... E to Eb) Told you I had been drinking.

Jeff Newman wrote an article in Steel Guitarist Mag. I will try to find it for you.

Mack

[Bengt Erlandsen]

The reason why it wont work at 2nd fret is because you are already "3frets down" when you have have the Achord at either 5th fret no pedals or open strings w A+B pedals. Instead you have to go up 3 frets for the Aminor pentatonic, 8fret no pedals or 3rd fret A+Bpedals for the A minor pentatonic.

But since you already know 3 places for the Achord it is easier if one know where to find the 2 missing notes from the scale. The A chord gives you A C# and E so you need to figure out where the two other notes B and F# is. You may have to slide up/down 2 or 3 frets or press a pedal but it is a lot easier since you can relate it to the 3 positions already known for the Achord.

Or you can mix notes from these positions for an Amajor pentatonic scale.
[tab]

F# ----------------------------------------------
D# ----------------------------------------------
G# ----------------------------------------------
E ----------------------------------------------
B -----------------------------------12~~12A----
G# ----0B---3---5---7B------10-----12B-----------
F# ---0----3---5---7------10-----12--------------
E --0---3L---5---7----10L-----12----------------
D ----------------------------------------------
B ----------------------------------------------
[/tab]

If you look closely you will see that the notes played on the 7th string are F# A B C# E F#
which is F#minor pentatonic or Amajor Pentatonic if you like.

Bengt Erlandsen

[Mack Quinney]

Thanks Bengt, I'll give it a try.

Mack

[Carl Vilar]

I don't know about you Mack but it ain't working out for me like it does on the 6 string I need lessons on the pedal steel and a drink, maybe two maybe more.

[Mack Quinney]

Carl,
I understand what Bengt and Jamie are saying about the scale, but I was looking for more the "magic bullet" not the scale. The C6th thing is a "magic bullet" for me and I assumed this is more what you were talking about.

I know exactly what you are talking about on the 6 string. Give me a blues tune I can comp, give me most country tunes I can comp on the 6 string. Just known the "pattern" and were to start. Don't need to know the song verbatum on the 6 string.

On the pedal steel I do better playing in chords and using the pedals to get the "comp" and passing tones within the chord. I am just know learning about dimenished chords and augmented chords on the steel. I'm still not good at it. 7th and minors seem to come easier. Sliding into 7ths and diminished through the lead, but is still just chords to me.

I am learning more now with the tabulature. Also check out Micky Adam's YouTube videos. "Singlpilot" is the screen name. This shows me licks I would have never figured out on my own.

Good luck with it. If you find the "magic bullet" let me know.

And yes drinking is good, but it doesn't help my steel playing. but then again as bad as I am, can't hurt!



Mack

[Bengt Erlandsen]

Maybe this chart showing where the notes on the E9 can be found on a regular 6string can be of some help. I found it was easier to compare chords back/forth between the 2 instruments once I knew how the strings on the E9 related to the 6 string.
Same chart could of course be written out for C6 or whatever other tuning I would like.

[tab]
Chart showing how the open strings on the E9 can be found on a regular 6 string

--4||---|--1|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
--5||---|---|---|--2|--4|---|--1|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
---||--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|--2|--4|---|--1|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
--9||---|--8|---|--7|---|--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|--2|--4|---|--1|---|--3|---|
---||---|-10|---|---|--9|---|--8|---|--7|---|--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|--2|--4|
---||---|---|---|---|---|---|-10|---|---|--9|---|--8|---|--7|---|--6|---|---|--5|




Showing only open strings 10 - 8 - 6 5 4 3 - - from the E9

--4||---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
--5||---|---|---|---|--4|---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
---||--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|--4|---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
---||---|--8|---|---|---|--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|--4|---|---|---|--3|---|
---||---|-10|---|---|---|---|--8|---|---|---|--6|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|--4|
---||---|---|---|---|---|---|-10|---|---|---|---|--8|---|---|---|--6|---|---|--5|




Showing only open strings 10 - 8 - 6 5 4 3 - - from the E9 with A+B pedals

--4||---|---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
---||---|--5|---|---|--4|---|---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
---||---|--6|---|---|---|--5|---|---|--4|---|---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|
---||---|--8|---|---|---|---|--6|---|---|---|--5|---|---|--4|---|---|---|---|--3|
---||---|---|---|-10|---|---|--8|---|---|---|---|--6|---|---|---|--5|---|---|--4|
---||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-10|---|---|--8|---|---|---|---|--6|---|---|
[/tab]


Bengt Erik Erlandsen

[Jim Sliff]

If you look closely you will see that the notes played on the 7th string are F# A B C# E F#
which is F#minor pentatonic or Amajor Pentatonic if you like.

This is the first thing that came to my mind - along with some reverse-thinking.

When I first learned 6-string lead stuff and "boxes" (something taught almost universally now) you learned a major pentatonic "box" - In "A" starting from the 1st string 5th fret and working down...and for blues in "A" take the same "box" and move it so you play from the the 5th fret *up*. Same patter of notes but with a different relative-position start/stop point.

You can also approach it as first posted, thinking "minor" but playing the A major "box" over a major chord, but most of the guys I know that teach work the other direction (most of the tab you see in guitar mags with basic lead stuff is also based the same way, on he two basic "boxes" - one called the "country" or "major", the other the "blues box" - hardly ever termed "minor".).

[Curtis Nicely]

The scale I was thinking of for example f# blues to be used over an A country progression would be
f#-a-b-c#-e

The particular scale he is refering to is the minor penantonic (meaning 5 notes). The reason why this scale works is that you almost always resolve to the 1 (note), unless you happen to like to create tension (or you memorize the chord progresions, and end each note coresponding to each chord, bad choice, and doesnt do well with position playing). This scale would work on the steel as well, I think the problem that you are running into is that you are keeping it in the major form when you apply it to the steel, try backing up the notes you see (easiest way to do this is to draw out all the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 intervals on the guitar). In A (minor penantonic) you would be looking for A,C,D,E,G when you resolve your lick, resolve to A or an E note.

The scale you are using for the guitar, is musically an incorrect choice to use (althouh viable since the A MAJOR penantonic scale has A, B, C#, E, F#), but would have a much more major flavor than the minor penantonic (common blues and rock scale).

Try mapping the set of notes out in the A-C-D-E-G on the guitar, and playing those areas. Just rem to resolve to A when you finish a run.