The jargon and basics of PSG ---- HELP

Harley Munroe · Post by **Harley Munroe** » 31 Jan 2008 6:29 pm

Hello to all, my name is Harley Munroe, I live in rural Arkansas, and I'm a new member. That meant, I hope I post this post to where it's supposed to be posted to.

If I don't - I'm sorry, and if someone would explain to me what I did wrong -- I will try to get it right next time. OK, with that said: I'm trying to gather and understand enough information to purchase my FIRST steel - to learn on. I do-not want a new student or new pro guitar. I would like to purchase a nice quality used pro. SD-10, (and have the ability to do so,) Seems easy enough, well it's not when you don't even understand the jargon. Therefore, my questions begin; would someone PLEASE explain to me what is meant by the following:
1.) When a listing reads: "Setup Emmons Style" - in opposed to what? I do know who Buddy Emmons is/was, (& Emmons Guitar Co.) but I don't know how many 'setup styles' there are and what is different about the "Emmons Style." Is that a good thing for a newbie, or...?
2.) Push Pull, All Pull, Pull & Release? How many different kinds of changers ((right term??)) were/are there? And which one should newbies like me ovoid in their first guitar?
3.) I think the Sho Bud's Pro 1 S-10 & SD-10 is a beautiful guitar. (Yes, it's the inlays - I know it has nothing to do with the sound, BUT... WOW) I've looked at quite a few on the net - so to try and make this question simple - there are two I like for sale on eBay right now. One is natural wood finish the other is Mica Red. Both are Pro 1's but they are completely different underneath. The natural one is what someone here on the forum referred to as; "RACK & BARREL", what is the RED one's undercarriage called and is it original? (Any of you that watch eBay will know which one I'm referring to.)
4.) That RED Sho Bud - Pro 1 - guitar is (in my opinion) drop dead gorgeous, but it is getting no bids and it's been listed at least twice. Would someone, anyone please -- care to share with me what is so obviously wrong with it? (If you don't you'll all have a good laugh, because, I'll be the idiot up to his wazoo in it.

) Thank-you to everyone in advance for any information they will share with me on my road to beginning to understand the first step into the world of PSG.
Harley Munroe

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 31 Jan 2008 6:59 pm

Harley has agood point here. The bass forum has a bunch of "stickies" and FAQs that stay up all the time. Maybe SGF could do the same regarding basic terminology.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 Jan 2008 7:05 pm

Harley, the answer to question #1 is that Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day have their pedals in reverse order from each other. The Emmons setup has the pedal that raises strings 5 and 10 on the left, and the pedal that raises strings 4 and 5 on the right. The Day setup reverses this. As far as I can tell there is no advantage of one way over the other. It's purely a matter of personal preference.

#2, push pull vs all pull. As a new player, trust me on this, get an all pull guitar. Push pulls do sound better, but the mechanics are far more complex. There is a reason who all the manufacturers (Except Promat) only make all pulls today. They do not want to deal with the headaches and hassles of a push pull changer. Neither do you.

Never having been a Sho-Bud player, I must plead ignorance of your 3rd question.

Whatever you do, make sure your guitar has at least 10 strings, 3 pedals and a minimum of 3 knee levers. Preferable 4 or 5. It should also have a double raise double lower changer.

I strongly suggest that you ask an experienced player to examine any guitar before you buy it. It's real easy to make a very expensive mistake.

Edited to correct an error

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 31 Jan 2008 7:48 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:Harley, the answer to question #1 is that Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day have their pedals in reverse order from each other. The Emmons setup has the pedal that raises strings 5 ad 8 on the left,

Mike, surely you meant 5 and 10? Just a typo I'm sure

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 31 Jan 2008 8:02 pm

Pearl is pretty much correct. I'll add, I OWNED a Sho-Bud "rack and barrel." Basically, it's a system with (underneath) a metal "rack," with 10 hole in it, for the rods to pass through. Each rod that raises or lowers has at least one "barrel" (a spring-loaded screw device). the barrels are carefully placed next to the racks, part of the barrel is held in place by a setscrew, and the other part threads into it. This part is held taut by a spring, which catches on the rack, allows the back part of the barrel to turn, and thus tune the raise or lower. BEAUTIFUL tone, but even more of a PIA to fool with than it is to describe

.
An all-pull guitar will be easier to tune, make changes on, and pull maintenance on, so again, follow Pearl's directions, and good luck!

Harley Munroe · Post by **Harley Munroe** » 31 Jan 2008 8:11 pm

Hello Mike;

Thank-you for the reply, so the "EMMONS" or "DAY" and other setups are just a matter of preference, and could probably be changed at most PS-shops?
That would seem to mean that setups aren't really an issue, (unless it's a student-model where it can't be changed.)
The ALL PULL guitar, (according to "Pedal Steel Guitar" by: WW & BK - Copyright 1975) consists of: Sho Buds, MSA's, ZB's, and newer Fender's.
The Push Pulls, (according to "Pedal Steel Guitar") are most students, and all Emmons.

But, "Pedal Steel Guitar" makes no reference to changers in Dekleys, Sierra's, Mullins, Marlens, or many, many other mfg's, is there a list published anywhere, that you know of, that will state what changer's they used?
Also, I noticed you didn't mention the Pull & Release, why -- is that an incorrect term, simply used by a seller who was trying to sound knowledgeable?

Lastly, I wish I did have access to a large steel guitar outlet, where there were several to try - and people to talk to, but here in the area of Arkansas I live in - the only thing large we have are chicken-houses. (Boy, do we have lot's of them!!)
Well thanks again, you helped a bunch - sadly, I still don't have a clue on the differences in those Sho Bud Pro 1's but at least I'm armed with a little more info. Why heck, thinkin' aboot' it. I'm gettin' closer to actually not knowing anything!!!

Best Wishes. Harley Munroe

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 31 Jan 2008 8:24 pm

Hey, You-uns might head up to Branson they have a good pedal steel asso. If you are close enough or check them out on line... its the ozark psg asso.
Get some first hand info and be careful buying on line
Good Luck

Harley Munroe · Post by **Harley Munroe** » 31 Jan 2008 8:31 pm

I would like to say - thank-you to ALL of you that have posted to this topic!!

The picture is of that RED SHO BUD - can anyone say whether that is original, rebuild quality, or just junk?

Thank-you,
Harley Munroe

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 Jan 2008 9:30 pm

Bent Romnes wrote:

Mike, surely you meant 5 and 10? Just a typo I'm sure

[/quote]

Ooops

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 Jan 2008 9:34 pm

Harley Munroe wrote: "Pedal Steel Guitar" makes no reference to changers in Dekleys, Sierra's, Mullins, Marlens, or many, many other mfg's, is there a list published anywhere, that you know of, that will state what changer's they used?

They ALL use all pull changers The only company making a push pull today is Pro-mat. Every other builder is using an all pull system. BTW it's Mullen, with an E and no S. [/b]

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 31 Jan 2008 9:50 pm

Mike

i agree that Emmons Vs day, .. one works as well as the other
But for a beginner wouldn't the Emmons be the better choice
simply because its the most common by far
+ most of the learning materail is written for the Emmons setup

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 Jan 2008 10:43 pm

Calvin Walley wrote:Mike

i agree that Emmons Vs day, .. one works as well as the other But for a beginner wouldn't the Emmons be the better choice simply because its the most common by far + most of the learning material is written for the Emmons setup

Yes Calvin. You are right. I think most of us play the Emmons setup.

Antolina · Post by **Antolina** » 1 Feb 2008 3:00 am

Interesting pricing on the sho~buds. From what I've seen, the older orignal Pro1 models in good condition manage to fetch a decent price. I've seen them sell for up to $1500+. The newer Gretsch models, while decent, don't seem to bring as much. That red one you're looking at is a Gretsch and no doubt about it, a beauty. I wouldn't be afraid of it. However, it doesn't have the collector value the older ones do. IMO only, I think the seller is at the top of it's value. I recommended it to a friend until I found a round front Pro1 here on the forum.

With the exception of "Starter" model guitars, There's a lot of great values out there. The key is condition. Steel guitars are complex machines and an old "well used" one can bring a host of problems. Worn bell cranks, out of round changers and poorly set up units might mean a trip to one of the many repair shops. I'd also avoid a push pull for the same reasons.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of other thoughts. What I've just said is my opinion only.

Good luck.

Curtis Nicely · Post by **Curtis Nicely** » 1 Feb 2008 5:05 am

1. Emmons style also lets you know that the guitar doesn't have some odd copedent on it. Cause lets face it, every steel players likes their own setup, and they have an odd habit of making this guitar come with all kinds of crazy levers in odd places cause it's comfortable (or sometimes not) to them.

2. Most of the newer models (anything nearing being built in 2000) are all pull changers. As an earlier ready said, there is a reason most mfgs went this route.

3. Here's my take on buying one of these monsters. I compared my purchase to buying a car, if your looking at a "hotrod", do I know enough about the old beast to fairly asses whether she has rust damage, water damager, blown valves etc. Am I buying it because they slapped a nice paint job on it, or do I really know how it works? Since I could not answer the previous questions, I went with a newer model, since like I car, I knew if she was built within the last few years, chances are she would have very few mechanical issues. I have since changed my first guitar out for a new mullen g2, I don't think I will ever own a different type of guitar (unless by some miracle I can get a new Zum...), but I am probably just like any other player who swears by his or her own brand...

Final blurb... Don't buy a car based on color

sometimes you get the right color but you hate the ride... There are a ton of great steels out there, I don't think I have heard or seen one built in the last 10 years that didn't sound or look great. Each player has his or her own preferences, and rightfully so! If you can, ask around on the forums to try out some peeps different kinds of guitars (just check to see how pedals and levers FEEL). To me, the biggest difference in guitars are the way the pedal (or lever) action is.

Roy McKinney · Post by **Roy McKinney** » 1 Feb 2008 6:02 am

Heck, you belong to the forum. Go to the "for sale" section and find a steel here on the forum.
Just my 2 cents worth and you will probably get what you pay for.

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 1 Feb 2008 8:06 am

Harley, one of the better options for buying a guitar and saving a few bucks would be to go for a used one through a reputable dealer. I personally got a great deal on a great D-10 through Bobbe Seymour, and I've heard nothing but good things about dealing with Billy Cooper, both of whom can be located through links at the top of the page you're looking at. I'm sure others will chime in with their experiences. If you're that far from a good steel store, my guess is you're probably not much closer to a decent steel mechanic. Getting one that isn't ready to fly could be a big issue.
You may see some griping about service from manufacturers or stores on this forum, but I can tell you exactly what sort of post purchase support you can expect from FleaBay!!!
Good luck. They're a great fun toy.

KP

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 1 Feb 2008 8:59 am

Hi, Harley, welcome to steel land. Your excellent questions show that you've researched and thought about this a great deal, and that tells me you'll probably do well with figuring all this out.

The Pull-release changer is (basically) a single finger that is pulled to raise, and balanced against the lower (lever), which when activated, allows the finger to lower aided by the string tension and/or a spring. Those guitars can sound very good, but again, maintenance is more difficult than with a modern all-pull. My second guitar after a Sho-Bud Maverick was a Marlen pull-release, a huge step up in tone but I spent almost more time under it than playing it.
I would seriously recommend that as a beginner you get a modern all pull, from a dealer who can help you get going, or a reputable forum member here. You can learn the basics of actually playing the instrument on a quality machine that will work correctly, leaving you just concentrating on playing, and keep some resale value as well.

As you keep applying your obvious interest and study ethic, you'll find out more about the instruments that ring your bell, and be able to try one or more of those armed with some playing skills and mechanical knowledge. Many of my beginning students have been somewhat stymied by an instrument with mechanical issues leaving one wondering if it's them or the guitar playing out of tune. You just don't need that confusion when starting out.

Almost all of the manufacturers are currently building high-quality, good sounding instruments that play in tune. You'd be safe with a Mullen, Rains, Desert Rose, new MSA, Carter, Zumsteel, Franklin, Fessenden, or any of the other great modern guitars.

There is really no performance difference in Emmons versus Day setup, and no advantage relating to instructional materials, as you simply learn which position the A and C pedals are in on your guitar. Apart from some early Sho-Bud tablature, almost all instructional material simply uses letters A, B, C to designate footpedals, and you just play them wherever they are on your guitar. Watching a video, you just see where the player has his pedals, and convert if needed to your setup. The main difference is comfort- some people's ankles move easier one way or the other. After falling off a roof and dislocating an ankle, I found the Day setup easier for me. I've gone back to Emmons setup as 1)Far more steels are setup that way, it's easier to try new ones out or "sit in" on the Emmons setup, since there are more of them, and 2) Guitars with more complicated setups, as with the increasingly more common 4th pedal, may come from the factory with the pedals and levers set to a spacing that makes it quite difficult to swap to the "other" setup. My current Zum was built with a 4 pedal 5 lever Emmons setup, and if I moved it to Day setup, the pedals/lever positions wouldn't line up without a lot of futzing.
3) Since there are more of 'em, and more players using the Emmons setup, they're easier to resell should you find a vintage Bud you just have to have.

Best wishes in the journey. It's a blast.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 1 Feb 2008 8:59 am

Harley

if you think the jargon is bad buying one ,
just wait till yo get into the jargon of playing one ..haha

Harley Munroe · Post by **Harley Munroe** » 1 Feb 2008 9:28 am

Good morning All.

I understand the trust most of you forum members have in doing business with each other. You have, (by posting, & meeting at public events) have gotten to know each other & the in's & outs of this forum.

However, I have only been a member for a day n' 1/2 --- I know no-one, & have no clue which are the talkers & which are the straight shooters. Further, in the week or so that I simply read postings before joining -- it has absolutely amazed me at the speed at which you forum members trade, buy, & sell to each other. I will give an example - yesterday before my membership was completed and active, a gentleman listed a BEAUTIFUL red mica Emmons. That guitar sold so fast that even he -- and I'm quoting from memory here --- posted the following statement: 'Guys, I'm sorry but I'm getting so many offers that I can't respond to all of you - I wish I could...'

In all honesty - I would have offered that gentleman cash for that guitar too - but it wouldn't have done me any good, because it was sold with many backup offers before I could have even decided I wanted it.

Now eBay: I have been a member of eBay for years, I have - two separate logins id's and have built two collections off eBay. One of some of the worlds most beautiful scaled (handles) straight-razors, and one of some of the rarest - key-chain puzzles, from all over the globe. In doing so I have bought and sold hundreds of items on eBay and have learned the eBay system and how to avoid some of the worst pitfalls. Also, the auction setting gives me time to think, and when you are learning - that to me is a very important factor. Here on the forum - you take time to think and it's sold.

Next: What I don't know is 'steel guitars' & so I joined this forum to be able to ask people who do. You live, breath, and play steel 24/7/365
I value --- your --- opinions immensely and have read, studied, and dissected, each and every word posted to this topic post!!!

As far as repair, no there are no 'steel repair' shops that I know of in Arkansas, however, I have contacted Mr. Seymour of 'Nashville Steel' and he is extremely pleasant and helpful. He even went so far as to offer to build me a left-handed Sho Bud, while I was considering going that route. (I have now dropped that approach entirely)

Stiil that says to me that any problem I run onto in a stupid purchase on eBay I could box the mistake and ship it to him and he would straighten out my SSSSup.

To buy from him however would entail a several hundred mile trip to Hendersonville, then staying overnight, shopping with him, and the trek home. All with no assurance that he might have anything that would trip my trigger.

About going to a store to buy a steel: If you can play, that's one thing but -- I can't yet -- so going into a place of sales, asking to see a new or used guitar -- then not even being able to do one decent lick -- the salesmen is going to know, there's no way to hide that kind of total ignorance.

So for me --- electronically I think, and trust in/to dumb-luck!!!

THANK-YOU again to EVERY ONE OF YOU that have posted your comment or opinion on this topic --- I DO APPRECIATE all views and opinions!!!
Harley Munroe

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 1 Feb 2008 9:37 am

Harley

if all goes right i will be passing thru Arkanas
on march 3-5th if you are anywhere near I-40
i could stop by for a few minutes...
help you any way i can

and by the way,
we do trust our fellow forum members
because we value our reputation
here on the forum,and try hard to be honest
with everyone
a bad deal here and we all know about it

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 1 Feb 2008 10:06 am

Welcome to this Great Forum Harley

i'd like to recommend either buyin' a psg on the forum from a fo'bro
it's like Calvin W says, so ya'can't really go wrong here
or buy from a steel musik store
they're all referenced in the "Link" section at the top of the page under "vendors"
ebay is win or lose
you're buyin' a picture & i don't think you know enough about a psg to be discussing things w: the vendor

you done good by comin'in here Harley & you're gettin' the right advice about set ups (emmons should do fine), all pulls (most psgs), & sho buds ( there are some very nice ProIs or LDGs that come up 4 sale here
so be patient,
try to hook up w: some steelers in your area,
check out the steel music stores
& keep askin',
you'll see that there's always a fo'bro' willin' to help you along

George McLellan · Post by **George McLellan** » 1 Feb 2008 10:14 am

Harley, there are several steel dealers that are even closer than you think. I don't know what part of Arkansas you live in since you don't list your city, but Scotty's in St. Louis and several others can be found simply by going to the "Links" on the top of your screen. I can't think of any one of them that aren't top notch to deal with.

Good luck with your quest (you'll never run out of things to learn).

Geo

Harley Munroe · Post by **Harley Munroe** » 1 Feb 2008 10:22 am

Calvin Walley:
Hi,

Calvin I live approximately 80 miles north of I-40, in the country out side of a Little one horse (no team) town called Pleasant Plains, AR.

The point you made concerning the ability to bring pressure to bear in the case of a less than honest seller - because you all know each other - is an excellent point. I had never considered it in that light. A less than honest seller might shaft one buyer, but would be hard pressed to make it happen twice.
Thank-you for that insight.

Harley Munroe

Curtis Nicely · Post by **Curtis Nicely** » 1 Feb 2008 10:34 am

Also, since you said that they tend to go quickly, why not post your own add in the "wanted to buy" area, if you are open with the forum members, just like you where in this post, I am sure you would find an honest guy to sell you a good guitar, at a good price. Heck, that's where I got my mullen from, and I couldn't be happier.

Heck, if you have any questions feel free to give me a call, 602-387-2030. I would be more than happy to give you what little pointers I have.

Tommy Wallace · Post by **Tommy Wallace** » 1 Feb 2008 11:00 am

Harley ....Sent you a email...Thanks