| Author |
Topic: More on Tone |
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2008 8:10 pm |
|
I hate to dis agree with such a personage as Bobbe. But, I think, He and the Big "E" an some of yous guys would make any amp or guitar have great tone. However, the same could not be said for me, IMHO I await you feed back
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 7:08 pm
|
|
Robert, don't sell yourself short, you are tooooo modest!
Bobbe |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 7:51 pm
|
|
What's all this talk about "Moron Tone"?
What??
Oh.
Never mind.
 |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 8:02 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| But, I think, He and the Big "E" an some of yous guys would make any amp or guitar have great tone. |
I disagree. They might be able to make the playing sound good enough that the tone was acceptable (being compensated for by playing skill) But a guitar with no sustain and a shrill tone is NOT going to have more sustain or a rounder, more full tone no matter who plays it.
This is again where playing skill and style get mixed up with tone.
And "great" tone is also not the same thing as "distinctive" tone - even if they made a lousy guitar sound "good" they won't make it sound like some guitar with a distinctive sound.
Most decent guitars have good or great tone - it depends on the ear of the listener, as it's subjective.
But microphonic systems, unbalance string-to-string response, poor sustain (or worse, mixed sustain qualities among the strings) are things playing skill can't "fix". You just don't notice as much when a really fine player is doing his thing.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 8:23 pm
|
|
Well there's certainly a lot of variables.
That's for sure.
EJL |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 8:28 pm Tone
|
|
Yes, a junky clunky guitar will always sound bad, However I precluded that when I said "your set up" Thanks Bobbe
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2008 10:51 pm
|
|
Bob, you said: "...would make any amp or guitar have great tone."
Note the word "any" in your statement".
You said nothing about "your set up", so I don't know what you're trying to explain now...but it doesn't wash. You "precluded" what....and exactly how?
Your statement still has no validity.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 6:10 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Your statement has no validity. |
A prerequisite for a "Tone Thread".
Now we need "expert opinion", "righteous indignation", and a pinch of acrimony.
We'll be all set.
EJL |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 6:16 am You got me
|
|
Guess I did say any guitar. Expert opinion and acrimony was searching for. I'm surperised at how little there has been. Have a good day
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 6:18 am
|
|
| The night is young. |
|
|
|
Al Collinsworth
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 7:47 am
|
|
edit
Last edited by Al Collinsworth on 22 Apr 2008 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 8:01 am
|
|
Here is a little test you might want to do someday.
After you have "set-up" on stage, get someone to just rake a flat pick across the open strings while you stand about 10 feet out in front. It sure proves that what you here on stage is not what is heard out front. |
|
|
|
Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 8:33 am
|
|
Jim Cohen:- What's all this talk about "Moron Tone"?
"Moron Tone" - Did somebody call????? |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 8:42 am morontone
|
|
I ain't heard enough on this subject did I type it correctly moron tone. Thats my tone and I'm sticking toit
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 1:45 pm
|
|
Tone = Steel, Pickup, Amp, and player.  |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 2:04 pm Moron on tone
|
|
Yes
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 2:08 pm
|
|
| This is the first thread on tone that had humor in it. |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 2:16 pm Humor
|
|
I know bringing up this subject is like going to the Amatuer Radio page and starting a code/no code thread. I thought by reading their post they were going to turn blue in the face, and they hated each other. I'm sticking to my story
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous
Last edited by Robert Harper on 30 Jan 2008 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 5:24 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| This is the first thread on tone that had humor in it BS.. |
So.. you think we're "funny".. A bunch of CLOWNS?? HERE TO FRICKING AMUSE YOU!@!&(*!*#(*@#~!!???
Where's my gun?
EJL |
|
|
|
Archie Nicol R.I.P.
From:
Ayrshire, Scotland
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 5:35 pm
|
|
Well done, Eck. You remembered to take your iron(y) pills. Eric and me, or is it I, have a history.....
I just can't recall what it is???!!! Please excuse me, Eck. I hope to atone for my memory lapse. 
Arch.
_________________
I'm well behaved, so there! |
|
|
|
Tim Bridges
From:
Hoover, Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 5:59 pm
|
|
There have been many a divorce and friendships lost over the subject of tone...I tried to tell her "I don't like the tone of your voice"; she said,"well apparently, I don't like the way you tune ET".
Well, that was an expensive discussion about tone. I prefer to just not discuss it. My attorney advised me to get over the tone issue. Whatever you say, will be used against you.
Could we use "sound" interchangably with "tone" to protect some of us who have been advised to avoid this subject? If it leads to an argument, somebody has got to get up and walk away. Dr. Phil asks, "do you want to be right, or be happy?". I wonder if Dr. Phil plays steel guitar...  |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2008 7:31 pm What it bolls down to
|
|
The point of this discussion js the tone I heard when I was first looking for a steel. Now remeber, I was quite a novice. However, the person who sold me my first guitar a multi-chord he played the darn thing and it sounded great. Now I was to learn this was an antiqudated instrument. However he made it sing prettly. So this is what lies behind my contention that a good player cam make any instrument sound good. Well at least if it is in reasonaly good shape and with a reasonably good amp. Hey guys I seen a guy who played the C6 neck and played it really well and he sounded great. Now heres the deal. This is why I would ever disagree with any of you about tone.
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2008 5:55 pm
|
|
Guys, my "no validity" line came across pretty harsh...sorry. At the time I couldn't come up with a clearer way to express the fact that it's just not true that any player can make a guitar *SOUND* great without an extended, repeated explanation. But I'm sorry it sounded like a kick in the teeth - I really didn't mean it that way.
The "tone" vs "style"...or "tone" vs "skill"...misuse of terminology seems to come up almost daily, though. In my top-level 6-string days before my hand problems, I'd have guys in guitar stores do the same thing when I'd pick up a St. George $39 Unimart Special (from 1965) and play it - commenting on the great "sound". Actually, the guitar in a case like that sounded like crap, but I was simply playing well and within its limitations.
And that's something that has NOTHING to do with tone - just either style, skill, or both of the player.
You don't notice lousy tone when the playing is really good, usually (there ARE notable exceptions - FWIW I thought Roy Buchanan and Danny Gatton both usually had terrible tone, but both played incredibly well - however, in some cases their tones were SO horrendous I can't even listen to the stuff).
I think it's extremely important for players to recognize the difference - especially newer players. Educate your ears to REALLY hear the SOUND...not the playing. It's a very enlightening experience once you "get" it.
"Sounded great" is one of the terms that bother me, because reading that I can't be sure the GUITAR sounded great, or if the listener (and poster) was simply impressed by the playing and it affected his perception of the real tone of the guitar. From my point of view reading many of these threads - it's usually the latter.
There's a huge difference between "making any guitar sound good" and "playing well on any guitar". That dividing line is really messed up IMO.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2008 6:15 pm Great reply
|
|
Excellent reply, There was a lot of thought put into that response Jim. If I read the reply properly, you believe someone may become mesmerized by the quality of the playing and therefore not notice the poor quality of the sound emitted by the guitar. As I finished my previous post, I thought of this and I at least partially agree. Unfortunately, I could not recreate the moments of this first hearing of the guitar. First, I would have a more critical experience, due to my later experiences, second, the guitar is no longer available and lastly the person doing the playing is more than likely gone now. He at least would be affected by 25 years of ageging. I would be the first to admit that tone is a very subjective topic.We all hear thing differently and they are filtered through our own lifes experiences and prejudices. The subjectivity of tone applies to all we hear. I bet a pretty good thread could be started about the quality of certain amps and stereo systems, even though we know that at the core all of these pieces are made from the same electronic components, brought from the same sales people, from the same factories. Which then would lead to an inescapable conclusion. We are suspectable to marketers. These marketers caused us to buy cars from former enemies and smoke things that could and does kill and causes us to buy objects we really don't need becaues they are connected to beautiful air brushed images
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2008 9:16 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| If I read the reply properly, you believe someone may become mesmerized by the quality of the playing and therefore not notice the poor quality of the sound emitted by the guitar. |
Yes - not only mesmerized, though, but actually think the tone of the guitar is "better"
That's the fallacy.
A good player can make a poor-sounding guitar "usable" simply by being competent. But he can't make a bad guitar sound "great" by playing cool licks.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
