Augmented and Diminish

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 22 Dec 2007 6:55 am

Can you guys give me some ideas or the rule of thumb "when to use an augmented chord" and "when to use and diminish chord".?

This has always been a mystery to me and I would appreciate some of your input in a easy to understand language if possible.

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 22 Dec 2007 7:16 am

Rick,
you use the diminished chords mainly as passing chords, linking together progressions in a chromatic way. This is also true of the Augmented chord, although in reverse. As a rule, if you are ascending in a chord change, use a diminished passing chord. If you are descending, use an augmented.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Dec 2007 8:00 am

take a dominant 7 w: 1357 (root, third, fifth & flatted or minor 7)& raise the root or 1 a half step & you'll have a diminished chord
symbol : C°

take a dominant 7 w: 1357, raise the 5, 1 half step & you got an augmented chord
symbol : C+

edited :

in my haste to post i did make a mistake
this is what i meant:
raise the tonic or root of a dominant 7 & you get a diminished chord

once you have a diminished chord, lower any one of the 4 notes & you'll get a dominant 7 chord

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 22 Dec 2007 8:39 am

Thank you fellows.... The fog is starting to lift a little...

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 22 Dec 2007 11:57 am

You can use the augmented chord to move from a 1 chord to a 4 chord: G > Gaug > C

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 22 Dec 2007 2:03 pm

sounds demented to me
try a 1 1dim 2minor 5 .. maybe you'll hear a little of what your looking for.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 23 Dec 2007 6:37 pm

Hi Bo, I would play a 1 1#dim 2m7 to a 5 chord. I like to use a diminished chord when the music calls for a flat 9 chord. For example,for a Gb9 chord, I could use a Abdim. which gives it a different flavor. I've had guitar players who didn't know what I was doing, say "Boy that's nice." Try it, you'll like it. Larry

Jerry H. Moore · Post by **Jerry H. Moore** » 23 Dec 2007 7:16 pm

I remember asking a fellow musician this question and the response was: Augmented adds and Diminished takes away. It didn't make sense till I played one in a progression. Like...Gmajor then G augmented then the C for example. Same with a diminished progression. Pretty cool chords. I mostly play by ear so I don't really understand how they are made...just when. I call the aggravated and demented chords.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 25 Dec 2007 7:56 am

Rule of thumb, diminished repeats every THREE frets,
Augmented every FOUR.

ANY note can be used for its name,
i.e. Gdim = Bbdim = Dbdim =Edim
or for the Augmented, E+ = G#+ = C+

A wholetone run works well over an augmented (Ask Stevie Wonder- The Sunshine of my Life) whilst a diminished has many ways of improvising around.

A diminished run over the dominant seventh chord of a tune that's in a minor key is KOOL !

An augmented substitutes for the Min/Maj7 chord :-
i.e. Am, AmMaj7, Am7 can be played Am, E+/G#, Am7/G. (As in Little green Apples)

Jon Bergh · Post by **Jon Bergh** » 26 Dec 2007 9:19 am

CrowBear Schmitt wrote:take a dominant 7 w: 1357 (root, third, fifth & flatted or minor 7)& lower any one of those tones 1 half step & you'll have a diminished chord

CrowBear are you sure about this? Seems like you get "variations on a theme"... some have the requisite flat third and flat fifth to get the diminished triad, but I wouldn't say these are all good diminished subs. I'll spell 'em out here...

Cb - E -- G -- Bb == tough to name this one... (Em#11? G6b9? Get out your jazz-extended-polychord- harmonies book!)
C -- Eb - G -- Bb == C minor 7
C -- E -- Gb - Bb == C half diminished 7
C -- E -- G -- Bbb = C6 (that B-double-flat is an "A")

Now I'm no expert certainly and love a good trick or two, especially on the pedal. If you've got some suggestions on using these sorts of things I'd love to hear. Thanks.

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 26 Dec 2007 2:33 pm

Crowbear had the right idea, but went backwards. Start with the Dim7 chord, and then flat any one of the notes a half-step. This always yields a Dom7 chord. Here is an example, starting with C#dim7

C# E G Bb becomes C E G Bb (which is C7)
C# E G Bb becomes C# Eb G Bb (spelled enharmonically as Eb G Bb Db is Eb7)
C# E G Bb becomes C# E Gb Bb (spelled enharmonically as F# A# C# E is F#7)
C# E G Bb becomes C# E G Bbb (spelled enharmonically as A C# E G is A7)

I don't seem to take advantage of this concept much on non-pedal steel. But it is a useful tool for finding new dominant seventh chordforms on a fretted instrument. Find a dim7 chord on the guitar (mando, banjo, etc.) and slide one finger down a fret and you have a Dominant 7 chord. Of course, if the note you move is doubled in the chord, you have to move both of them. I think this would be useful on pedal steel also, using pedals or knee levers, but since I don't play pedals, maybe someone else can respond to this.

James Kent · Post by **James Kent** » 26 Dec 2007 4:57 pm

Chords and how to use them! Ted Greene's books really helped me. He was not a pedal steeler but he was a wonder; A great teacher and gifted player.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 28 Dec 2007 1:43 am

my mistake guys
i should have written :
lower any tone 1 half step on a demented chord & you get a dom7
an easy way to get a demented is to raise 1 half step the root or tonic of a dom7

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 28 Dec 2007 3:09 am

Is it the thin air in the Pyrenees or some other reason that has you 'Demented" ?
I do believe you have a lot of NATURAL reverb in them there caves. !! Any good on the Steel Guitar ?
Another silly question for you :-
Does the high altitude and less dense air offer lower resistance to the strings and give you more sustain ?

Steve Geis · Post by **Steve Geis** » 28 Dec 2007 10:44 am

C - C Aug - F: There is a 1/2 step melodic movement keeping the following notes on top of your chords: G,, G#, A (C chord at the 3rd frt, A&B down, with 4th string on top=G note, raise the 4th 1/2 step w/KL for C Aug=G# note, then play F chord at the 1st frt, no pedals, w/3rd string on top=A note.)

C - C# Dim - G: There is a 1/2 step melodic movement which are notes: C, C#, D (C chord 8th frt no pedals, 4th string on top=C note, then same but raise 4th string 1/2 step w/KL for C# Dim chord=C# note on top, then G chord 10th frt with A&B down, and the top/4th sting=D note.)

In either exercise, play the first two chords as 1/2 note value (2 beats each) and resolve to the last chord as a whole note value (4 beats).

Steve Geis · Post by **Steve Geis** » 28 Dec 2007 10:58 am

Here is one more thought about diminished chords. And I should probably be shot for even saying this, but: If you chord chart calls for a C# Diminished, think C Major and sharp the C note/root! If it says G# diminshed, think G Major & sharp the G note/root. Before I get beat up here on the Forum, and rightly so, this works mechanicly, BUT NOT IN THEORY. In music theory, a dimished chord is created by flatting the 3rd & 5th a half step,..NOT BY SHARPING THE ROOT. This mechanical logic for diminished chords just happens to work well on steel since we can easily raise the root a 1/2 stop in an open frt. But again, in THEORY we are flatting the 3rd & 5th. FORUMITES: pls be gentle with me; I know the errors of my ways.

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 28 Dec 2007 4:56 pm

Thank you everyone that posted your views and knowledge..... And Steve I don't care if anyone criticizes you. Your explanation is exactly what I needed to make sense to me. It kind of brought all the posts above into a more understandable form. I need to take baby steps with this new venture. Thank you so much.

Mark Kelchen · Post by **Mark Kelchen** » 11 Jan 2008 7:03 am

After trying all of this I Bflat exhausted...........

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 11 Jan 2008 7:19 am

Hi Nick, I didn't think that this was NOT in an "Understandable Form" PLEASE elaborate, to help me with my own personal communication skills..

Rule of thumb, diminished repeats every THREE frets,
Augmented every FOUR.

ANY note can be used for its name,
i.e. Gdim = Bbdim = Dbdim =Edim
or for the Augmented, E+ = G#+ = C+

A wholetone run works well over an augmented (Ask Stevie Wonder- The Sunshine of my Life) whilst a diminished has many ways of improvising around.

A diminished run over the dominant seventh chord of a tune that's in a minor key is KOOL !

An augmented substitutes for the Min/Maj7 chord :-
i.e. Am, AmMaj7, Am7 can be played Am, E+/G#, Am7/G. (As in Little green Apples)

Is it my use of the '=' (Equals) sign to mean "is the same as" that's confusing ?

should I have said :-
ANY note comprising the chord can be used for its name,
i.e. Gdim is the same as Bbdim is the same as Dbdim is the same as Edim
or for the Augmented, E+ etc. ?