chord question

[Calvin Walley]

i got into one of my christmas presents a little early, its a Jeff Newmans Chord dictionary.
but now i 'm confused about something, in several places he shows going from 3rd fret G no pedals to 3rd fret C and referes to it as a 2 Minor
and looking at the progression chart it looks like he is calling the C an A minor??

what am i missing ??? shouldn't the 3rd fret A & B pedals just be a C ? why would he show it as anything else?

[Chris Brooks]

If you play the 7th string with the C chord (AB down) it becomes an Am. Is this what the tab refers to?

A minor and C major are enharmonic equivalents. They are "relative major" and "relative minor" chords.

The A minor is the IIm chord in the key of G. You can hear how similar it is to a straight C, the IV chord.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Clyde Lane]

Calvin, If you are only playing strings 3&5 or 5&6 this is true. Its no different than using the B&C pedals and not using the 4th string. It's an A minor without the root.

[Calvin Walley]

i have reread it and it makes no reference as to what strings. on page 14 he shows a G going to an Am then D7
it shows 3 examples of the Am ( 1D, 3BC & 3AB ) there is also 3 examples of the D7 (1F, 3BD &3BC )
i just don't get why he would call the C an Am

[Skip Edwards]

There are numerous occasions where you can play a C in the 3rd fret position over an Am, especially if you're only going to hit a 2 note interval instead of a C triad. If you leave off the G note(4th & 8th strings),and stress the C and the E notes, it fits just fine alot of the time.
When you add a G it becomes an Amin7, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

[Mike Kowalik]

Am is the relative minor for the key of C.....just as Bm is the relative minor for the key of D and so on....C#m is the relative minor for the key of E and so on.....

[Calvin Walley]

thanks guys

maybe thats what he was doing , just didn't say it that way

[Roger Shackelton]

In Jeff's seminars he used & demonstrated substitutions that were not musically correct. He explained it by saying if it sounds OK, why not use it.


Roger

[b0b]

At the 3rd fret, pedals B+C makes an A minor chord.

[Calvin Walley]

Bob

thanks. it makes sense now , i was not even thinking about the BC, all i had on my brain was the AB... DUH

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Cal on the 1st fret no pedals.. strings 2,3,5 gives you an A minor, as does 2,5,6 you can also use the 10 string with the combo for a fuller sound.

lower your 4 & 8 strings, and you've got all kinds of um.

[Jody Sanders]

To make these "cheater" chords work (AB pedals on 3rd. fret, strings 5 and 6 as A minor) your bass player plays your root note in this case A, and the other rhythmn intruments play A minor. Jody.

[Jody Cameron]

The C triad, C-E-G, played over it's relative minor bass note, in this case "A" - creates an A minor seventh chord...perfectly acceptable as a substitution for a pure A minor chord in a lot of cases. This is what Jeff is demonstrating here.

JC

[Ken Williams]

One interesting thing about that 3rd fret position is that all the notes of the C major scale will fit with an Am chord. For example, if you're playing something up tempo and the chords call for an Am, just pretend like you're playing in C at the 3rd or 15th fret, to play your single string riffs.

Ken

[Joey Ace]

I like to understand chords by the notes that make them.

C Major is C E G

Am is A C E

Am7 is A C E G

From the above, you can see if you play a C Major, and the Bass Guitar (or other instrument) plays an A note, the listener hears an Am7 chord. (Of course, if you don't play the G note, the result is Am.)

If the bassist plays a C note, and you don't change, the result is a C Major chord.

A good bassist is very important to us Steelers!

[John Billings]

Chord substitutions are an interesting study! After learning a bunch of Danny Gatton stuff on 6-string, I'm convinced that his favorite E7th chord was actually a D major chord with an E in the bass! He also played a lot of harmonized Bminor 7th scales while playing in E, which makes sense, the Bminor being so close D in structure, that it gave his playing a very D against E sound.

[Joey Ace]

D major chord with an E in the bass

E A D F# = Esus9

A lot of tension in that.
I guess it suits Danny's style.

[Bent Romnes]

A good bassist is very important to us Steelers!

Now you're talking like Jeff Newman. That's the kind of language I can understand too!

[Joey Ace]

Now you're talking like Jeff Newman.

Yep.
I remember Jeff saying Bassists should be paid double.

I asked if he paid them double on his sessions.
He responded, "I said they should be..."

[Jody Cameron]

Yep - I just LOVE a good bass player. I like to set up near the bass when possible.

[Joseph Barcus]

I would suggest going back and re thinking about how the scales work and everything you see in Jeffs course would come together for you. I too back before jeff died was lost and did not understand what he was talking about most of the time in his courses then I went to visit him in 99 and I am here to tell you that was the best 1200.00 that I spend on my steel guitar venture. think scales as your playing all the time you will find that alot of time you can sit still in that C and let the band do that AM or the other way around. when you see a 6th think it out the 6th in a c chord is the A note added and so on

[Richard Sinkler]

I can't believe Jeff doesn't make a reference at some point prior to the page you are at as to what strings are being picked. Just saying that at fret 3 with A & B pedals is a C or Am doesn't make sense if no string numbers are mentioned. A new player could assume he is talking about strings 1, 2 & 3 which of course are not either of these chords.

At the 3rd fret with A & B, you get a C chord on strings 3,4,5,6,8,10. At the 3rd fret, you get an Am chord with the A & B pedals on strings 1,3,5,6,7,10. It's very common to go from a G on the 3rd fret with no pedals on strings 3,4,5,6 (use the top 3 or the bottom 3, makes no difference)and go to the Am at the 3rd fret by putting the A & B Pedals down and hit strings 5,6,7, and/or 10. Then jump up to strings 3,4,5,6 with the A&B pedals and have the C chord and slide up to fret 5 with the A & B pedals down for the D chord and back to fret 3 with no pedals for the G again. You have just completed the very popular (and very often used) 1-2(or 2min)-4-5-1 progression that is used a lot in many different types of music.

For example: (let's see if I can get this to work)
[tab]
3----------------------------------
4--3----------3(A&B)----5(A&B)----3
5--3--3(A&B)--3(A&B)----5(A&B)----3
6--3--3(A&B)--3(A&B)----5(A&B)----3
7-----3----------------------------
G Am C D G
1 2min 4 5 1
[/tab]

Something you also might want to work on, is identifying which notes when you play a chord are the 1,3 and 5 notes of the chord (scale tones for a major chord). In other words, know not only what strings and pedals make what chord, but also what the scale tone is of each note you are playing. You can go further by knowing that the C chord with A&B pedals consisits of a C note on string 6 (the 1 tone of the scale), E on string 5 (the 3 tone of the scale) and a G note on string 4 (the 5 tone of the scale). I'm assuming you know scales and scale construction and know that a major chord consists of the 1,3 and 5 tones of the scale.

It is also imperative that you learn this scale info as when you advance your playing level and need to play extended chords, you will be able to figure out how to play them without having to rely on a dictionary to find the chords. It will help when playing with others and they yell out the song progression as being 1-4-5-1-2m-5-1. No matter what key the song is in, you will be able to figure out what chords they are talking about without them telling you what chords to play. The only things you need to know are the name of the song and the key they are going to play it in. I would be very embarrassed (at my playing level of 37 years) if the band called out a song and I had to pull out my dictionary to find out where the chords can be found. But this only comes with practice, time and the willingness to learn your scale info. If that book isn't doing the job, find something else as has been suggested here.

I learned mine when my brother taught me to write out all of the scales in a left to right columnar format with all the 1 notes in a column, all the 2 notes in a column etc. Then you always have a reference.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Calvin,

Please take this as Constructive criticism. As opposed to criticism.

You're simply (at this time) trying to play songs, when first you need more work, on going back to basics, of your steel's neck, as well as your understanding of the progressions, etc. Then you'd find that what works in one key, also works in another. That's the understanding you first have to know.

Don't simply print out what you already have been sent to study from, and tuck it away. You need to study it all, until you know most all of it, and can literally apply it on your steel. Then start back on playing the tabs.

You don't have to learn every note, but you do need to learn positions.

One cannot (simply) look at something and learn it. There is effort that goes into learning. And you've simply not had that material long enough to have learned it yet.

You're trying to learn to play steel, before really learning the neck, and positions first. That doesn't ever work out, regardless of the length of time a person's put into trying to learn to play.

Don't continue going in the wrong direction. As what you've expressed on the forum, when saying you started out using tab, and wasted 5 years.

Therefore, you've got to take enough time off from attempting any tab, to give yourself the needed time, to go back to basics, to get yourself moving ahead in the Right direction.

Undoing the wrong and doing it right is always the hardest. Because, one starts feeling as though they are making progress, when in fact, they're still going backwards from not taking the needed time to work on what they consider, too basic for where they currently are in playing. But that's not the case.

Using tab, is NOT bad. But! It is, if you first, haven't put the right amount of time dedicated to learning what needs to be known first. And your positions rate right up there among the very first, as do chord progressions and where they are located on the neck.

Get out all of the things you've printed out that folks have sent to you, and not just an evening, but actually work it out on paper, study it as if you'd use a study guide for anything else to learn. Then, get on your steel and start applying it as you work out the physical portions of it, and where it's at on your neck. Get use to your fret markers to get a reference off of, as opposed to counting frets.

For the time being, forget all of the songs you're trying to learn. (which are too many anyway for where you're currently at) They can come later. They actually have to come later, because without first having the other knowledge that goes into playing, they would be above anyone's head.

If you really want to become a steel player, (and I know you do) as opposed to being someone who really doesn't understand what it is they're doing, but can play (to some degree) when working off of tab.

You'll find then, that even the tabs make much better sense to you, and will be much easier to play, and play well.

There is nothing at all wrong with asking questions about anything one doesn't understand. It serves well to ask questions, because it gets the answer to the question asked, answered.

While at the same time, it allows those providing the answers to know at what stage of knowledge, the one asking the questions are at. Depending on the question being asked.

If you'll take this advice as a Positive, and work hard to learn it and apply it, everything will start coming into view, and it will allow you to eventually become a player. However, if you continue the wrong way, it will eventually lead you down a dead end street, regardless of the amount of years you've put into it.

I sincerely hope I didn't offend you, and you take it for what it's worth.. And that is, the ability to become a pedal steel player.

Wishing you all the best of a New Year, for a New Beginning in the way you approach learning..

Don

[Richard Sinkler]

Don, great advice. At 5 years of playing, a person "should" be able to be playing at "Gig" level. Of course their are people who can spend their lifetime trying to learn and never get past getting the guitar in tune. I tried for a year to learn to play mandolin. My left hand just would not cooperate (and thus the reason I don't play guitar either). You may not be Buddy Emmons (at 37years of playing, neither am I) but you should have a degree of proficiency at the instrument. I also don't mean this as a critisism. I agree with Don that your method of learning needs to change. If you feel you can't learn without tab, at least try to figure out what the tab writer was doing and thinking when he wrote the tab. You can stay with tab and learn 100 songs, but all you are doing is playing songs. You will have no idea how to PLAY STEEL GUITAR. Playing steel guitar is much more than copying tabs. Tabs don't explain what is actually going on in the thought process. I am glad that tabs were very few are far between when I first started learning. I think it would have slowed me down.

Keep asking questions (this goes for anybody) and those of us that have been through what you are going through will have answers for you. You may not like what we say (especially if it means more and harder work), but in the long run, if you listen to the experienced players, you will progress at much faster rate.

[Calvin Walley]

Don

i have quit using tabs,
what i have been trying to do is use Jeffs books that comes with his honky tonk heros set . they do not have tabs , all he gives is the chord progressions to play against the sound tracks