Bars and club closures

Richard Lester · Post by **Richard Lester** » 9 Dec 2007 6:15 am

How many of you have seen the constant decline in bars and clubs closing in your area, along with less and less audiences in attendence? The DWI and no smoking bans have wreaked havoc in our areas and folks are afraid to go out and enjoy themselves anymore. At one time, there used to be approx. 35-40 bars and clubs in a 5 mile radius, where I live, now there are about 8, and they are barely surviving. The bands and musicians are , also, in decline with hardly any places left to play, except weddings, anniversaries and private parties.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 9 Dec 2007 6:21 am

Not to mention Karoke and DJ's playing in place of live entertainment.

However, there does seem to be a number of places having open mic nights. Here is a website where you can locate an open mic night in your area,

http://openmikes.org/

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 9 Dec 2007 8:40 am

It's a depressing fact for sidemen around the country. Those good times and the reality of playing as much as you want in this area are gone. Unless you want to play for 1970's prices. Private jobs are still there, but DJ's get a good share of those now.
Possibly a mini version of a Branson style family show would be beneficial? The only band persuing that idea in this area is Kirk Dighton and the Western Justice band featuring Stubby Steel. Gear up for family entertainment and the many steel guitar shows and forget the clubs and bars.
I'm Dennis Detweiler and I approve this message.

Duane Becker · Post by **Duane Becker** » 9 Dec 2007 9:05 am

In Spokane Washington and the Coeur d Alene Idaho metro area, where I mainly play music, population close to 500,000 people, there are no, I repeat, NO country music bars.
As of November 2003, the last country and western dance bar closed its doors. I was playing 4 nights a week there when it closed. There are 2 bars that still have live music, but they feature rock, and only one night a week.
Right now the only place that I am playing is the private music clubs, Eagles, VFW's, Moose...

One of the things that is starting to catch on out here, especially in downtown Spokane is an awakening of the night life scene of people in their 20's. They are spending money on Friday and Saturday nights, going to restaurants to eat while a live 3 or 4 piece band quietly plays three hour gigs in the corner of the restaurant.
I'm in such a band on Friday nights. The style of music is the new alternative folk/country stuff like the national band Wilco, and the singer Nora Jones, which I think for the most part is great music.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 Dec 2007 7:37 pm

No place to play, and no one one that cares all that much..live music is not dead yet, but its on life support...

Unless you are one of the lucky few steel players that is in one of the rare areas where live music matters and is appreciated, you are probably going to play fewer shows each year, and for less money...

I am about to drive 100+ miles to do a fill in gig.. It will be the first pedal steel only gig I have done in many years, for the only decent country band in a 125 mile or so radius, in one of only about 4 country venues with a 2 hour drive.. REAL tough sledding for a steel player in my neck of NY state.... bob

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 9 Dec 2007 8:54 pm

From the 60's up through the late 90's the D/FW area was a literal hotbed of clubs. We had many Rock,Blues and Country bars just about anywhere you wanted to go in the area.

During the big Urban Cowboy craze I used to joke saying it wouldn't be long until 7-11's started having a live band as there was a bar in almost every local shopping center.

The big decline started with the drinking age going from 18 to 21 and then the drinking laws getting stiffer and stiffer because of MADD.

With the lowering of the blood alcohol limit,the average man will be bumping .08 if he has two drinks within a one hour span and a first DWI will run you in the neighborhood of $5k if you fight it not to mention possibly losing your job over it.

With the price of gas,cover charges,drinks and everything else going up,the average person just doesn't have the money or want to risk the legal ramifications of going out bar hoping like they used to.

In 2008 I've heard many bars will be dropping one night that they normally had a band due to a drop in business over this last year. If gas prices continue to climb you will see more and more closings in the future.

Don Lanier · Post by **Don Lanier** » 10 Dec 2007 12:23 am

Here in St Louis area we still have thriving music scene with all types of music represented but its harder and harder to find QUALITY players, Quality Bands, it seems these days kids think if you turn it up loud enough thats gonna get you noticed, or if you mumble and grunt your vocals. I just had a conversation with a club owner while doing sound for a group that SONGS used to have Lyrics, and Chorus, and Hook Lines and now they have Kick Drum, Louder Guitar and they sing about something thats hard to sing along too, or even understand.

DUI/DWI Laws are having an effect and In IL come Jan 1 the DUI penalty DOUBLES, AND a NO SMOKING BAN in every public building, even private clubs takes effect.
So Im sure Business will take a hit, Maybe those that dont drink or smoke will start going out paying 3 dollars for a soda to hear bands that dont tune there instruments.

In my hometown there used to be 8 different good sized Live music venues, now theres three little bars and the VFW/Eagles and there only doing Sat nights. I think the times are a changing and unless Bar and Music patrons face the penaltys and rules Ill bet these places stop having live music, then Ill have to go to St Louis for music and with a 10K DUI penalty looming over your head I bet that doesnt happen too much.

There used to be two BIG country bars here and both have started crossing over, Theres nothing like going to see LIVE country band and then the DJ plays 50 CENT AND RAP tunes all break long !!!!

Happy New Year

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 10 Dec 2007 3:50 am

A good solution would be:
1. Develop and market cars that drive themselves.
2. Make DJ-ing and Karaoke-ing a capital offense.
3. Give nightclubs that feature live music a 50% discount on their liquor license fees and property taxes.

Rose Peters · Post by **Rose Peters** » 10 Dec 2007 4:02 am

A lot of bars have closed here too ,And if they haven't they have switched to Rock,or Jazz.
My husband plays at a club where they have a different band every Friday.This is a two piece band he plays for so he is half the band.The other bands er4 or more.
He plays jam sessions also,so he can play whenever he wants.Jams don't pay but are fun.
Johnny Peters is still enjoying the steel and plays when he can and I love to hear him.
His Roadie

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Dec 2007 5:35 am

Here in L.A. most of the clubs have closed, but smoking ban had nothing to do with it. The main reason is population shift. When the auto plants closed down, the workers who staffed them, and who supported the local country music scene, moved on, and were replaced in many cases by people who came here from Mexico and Central America.

Some of the clubs are still here, but they have Latin music.

There is a small number of country bars that have survived, and since there are so few of them, they all seem to be doing well.

Richard Lester · Post by **Richard Lester** » 10 Dec 2007 5:45 am

I do agree about the 60s&70s. I was playing at least 5 nights a week, had a lot of great times back then. I still played quite a bit, right up to 3 yrs. ago, when I decided to call it quits. So I enjoyed 45 yrs of entertaining. We used to play for this rich guy who paid for hotel expenses for everyone/including guests and he would have shuttle busses that ran every 15 minutes to and from the place where we played. They were fantastic parties. I could tell some stories as I'm sure you all could do the same. I've had a lot of requests to get back to playing and I may do a few here and there.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Dec 2007 6:11 am

Might as well, you can't smoke in them, or drink in them..

Good riddance.

Something else will come along.

It always does.

Maybe U-Tube Parlors.

EJL

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Dec 2007 6:28 am

I live and work in a small town with a very large university, so there's no lack of bars and clubs to play in. With the bulk of 45,000 students within walking distance, anybody that wants to go to a bar can, and they are frequently full - often annoyingly so. Forget about traditional country - the scene is rock with some blues, folk/Americana, and bluegrass. But outside of town, things are not good.

I think strong DUI laws, coupled with a lack of creativity in figuring out how to deal with the change in business landscape, have been the main culprit. There are no state-enforced no-smoking regulations in PA, so that is not the issue here.

In fact - in the last 6 months, a few bars/restaurants and clubs have gone non-smoking on either a part-time or full-time basis. They have observed that if the scene is not a bunch of people getting drunk, their appeal is enhanced by not allowing smoking.

The days of being able to go to a bar, get trashed, get in your car, drive home, and get away with it with impunity, are long gone. IMVHO, they are not coming back. If bars and clubs want to survive, they need to recognize this reality and work to try to appeal to people who don't work on that model.

Except in places like a big city or large university town where there is a large audience within walking or easy cab/public transportation distance - most of the people clubs need to attract now have a number of characteristics:

1. They don't drink to excess and then drive.
2. Mostly, they don't smoke. Most of the population doesn't smoke, and especially the kind of people I'm talking about.
3. They like a nice place with good drinks, good food, and good music that doesn't drill them back into the wall, and can afford to pay for them.

IMO, places that recognize this do just fine. But places that insist on working with a dead business model die.

All my opinions, naturally.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 10 Dec 2007 7:21 am

I guess I'm helping keep the clubs and my kids alive. My wife and I have always told our kids to call US if they need a ride. No questions asked, other than tell us where you are, and we'll come get you. My son doen't live nearby, but when he's home for the holidays he takes advantage of the offer. My daughter has called a number of times, and some times we plan it in advance and they call a few minutes before they are ready to leave.

We've been seen is birthday party pics-- albeit in parking lots-- and the kids friends have their parents making the same offers.

Who say's the designated driver can't be home resting up for the drive home?

Curtis Alford · Post by **Curtis Alford** » 10 Dec 2007 8:04 am

I would like to see BMI and ASCAP go after the DJ and Karoke Bars and collect the fees for each song played or performed in public and leave the Bands playing live and the clubs that hire them alone. The bands will only play a cover song once a night normally, the other bars may play a song ten times.
MADD, in my opinion is just another meaning for crazy. Again the minorty forcing their view on the majority.
Clubs have few reasons to hire live bands. You can rarely recover your overhead when you do.Customers come later and leave early.House dances and barn dances may be the answer once again to keep it live.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 10 Dec 2007 8:18 am

I can relate to the college town scene. The University of Iowa (Iowa City) has a ready made crowd. However, the city council is trying to rid the town of restraunts and bars by eliminating the under 21 crowd after 10pm (new club curfew). Hence, we will be losing more night life scene and those kids will be partying in residential areas or try to drive to a nearby town.
Downtown music is blues and rock. Musician survival hinges on that here. However, those clubs don't put out alot of money for bands because they have a crowd anyway.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Dec 2007 8:51 am

Ive rocked Iowa City a few times. They'll arrest you for WALKING home drunk.

Im pretty much thru going to see live music because:
I dont like crowds, flying elbows, people all up in my personal space, a half hour line at the bar etc.
I dont like idiots (and theres a good handful at any show, especially wheres there's alcohol)
I dont like standing on a concrete floor for four hours.
I dont like coming home at 2 in the morning.
I dont like being searched when I enter the establishment.
I dont like 4 opening bands to wait thru before the act I paid to see.
I dont like $5 plastic cups of peesh vassa lite ice.
I dont like gooney bouncers who gotta flex.

My patience for all this stuff is gone. So, I gotta place part of the blame on the clubs, promoters etc. Its just almost never a good experience/fun anymore.

I'll go see friends play, just to see friends...thats about it.

Smokey Fennell · Post by **Smokey Fennell** » 10 Dec 2007 11:26 am

I have been hearing the complaints that No smoking rules and DUI inforcment have killed the bar scene. Around here there are a quite a few bars that are always busy. No live music though. It is all DJs. The younger audience seems to want recordings played at high volume and a DJ that screams continuously. The more mature customer seems to be staying home.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 10 Dec 2007 11:51 am

The live music bar scene for country is dead here too in southeast Virginia but live music is not! It's just changed places. Some of the hamburger joints (mainly Hardees) have a live band once a week. I play the Hardees in Portsmouth every Thursday and it's one of the most enjoyable gigs I've ever worked. No money involved except for passing the hat but we get no less than $40 and up to $60 each time we play plus a free meal from Hardees and a very appreciative crowd that dances every song. A packed house that's sober and none of that d@mn cigarette smoke! And we only play two hours from 6:30 to 8:30........

Also a friend of mine rents the Eagles Lodge in south Norfolk every other Friday night for a dance and charges three bucks at the door and the place is jam packed. For a six piece band we usually average $65 apiece which ain't that bad really. Also it's only three hours from 7:00 to 10:00 PM. Again, no smoking allowed which is fine with me.

Every Saturday I work a trio gig at a local restaurant in Suffolk with a bass player and a rhythm guitarist (plus an electronic drummer) and it's only three hours from 5:30 to 8:30 which I really like as it allows you time to see some other bands if you want on a Saturday night. This is another no smoking venue which pays pretty well. The restaurant pays us $50 apiece and we have a pretty good tip jar. This past Saturday it was another fifty each from tips.

I do a once a month gig on Sunday afternoon and book out on the Fridays we're off from the Eagles Lodge. All in all, I've never been happier and it's great playing for a bunch of nice folks as opposed to drunks, dopers, and losers!

All in all, you can't make a good living from the bars anymore but if you want to really enjoy your music and life there are some gigs out there if you'll look for them..........JH in Va.

GaryHoetker · Post by **GaryHoetker** » 10 Dec 2007 1:07 pm

I think it's a generational phenomenon more than anything else. I don't think we'll ever fully appreciate how much the untimely death of Don Rich 33 years ago changed the music landscape here. He was and always will be the gold standard. Buck's recent passing pretty much sealed things. In Bakersfield, the Crystal Palace (hardly your typical bar or club)is drifting away from traditional country and leaning more and more to contemporary country and R&R-including the Buckaroos, and Buddy Alan.

Now, there's only Trouts carrying on the tradition..thanks to Bobby Durham, Red Simpson, and Larry Petree. It's still fun to have a few beers enjoy those artists while we still can.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 10 Dec 2007 1:12 pm

Very little of our work is in bars. (most of the bars around here use kareoki machines) Our gigs are mostly at Legions, some weddings (even most weddings up here use CD DJs now) and at special occasions such as fairs or at malls.

We don't have the military veteran population up here so our legions are mostly honourary members or guests. Even they are dwindling in numbers and so are their working hours.

Don Discher · Post by **Don Discher** » 10 Dec 2007 1:32 pm

I guess it's the same all over,we used to have a circuit of about 10 bars and a country band in every one of them and now we're down to 3 or 4 that have primarily country.I don't think the DUI or the smoking ban has hurt it as much as this new generation has found different ways to entertain without hitting the bars.Our local Legion has gone from 2 nights a week to just Saturday and I won't pack my gear in and out for a 1 night gig. The local Elks club still has a 2 night gig but all the other bars have either shut down or found alternative types of music and the private parties have even dropped off.We may start sponsoring our own parties just to keep active.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 10 Dec 2007 4:28 pm

I'm glad the drinking laws are stiffer. I rather a bar close than a friend be a victim of drunk driving. If you gotta drink, no problem with me, just get a designated driver, what's the big deal with that?
I play between 50 -100 gigs every year for the last 15 years, and love it. St. Louis is not a big country town, but there's lots of R&B. Original music is tough to break here also. I have played in the last three years guitar(mainly), steel and bass in a straight traditional country band, with some new stuff too,a "hippy band" New Riders, Byrds, and Dylan stuff, and now a new band featuring some alt country. I could book my R&B band every night if I had to, but the daytime gig makes it tough. JP

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 11 Dec 2007 6:40 pm

We also have lost some good places to play in Texas. Madd has taken it's toll. Many have become churches. I play mostly large Texas dancehalls. We play western swing and old country. Some of the smaller bars are still going too as well as weddings and private parties.

I believe a lot of the burdon to survive is on the band itself. The bands have to create a performance where people have a good time and are willing to pay for it. Our band,as well as some others here,have songs well rehearsed with little time between songs,we dress nice and carry a good sound and light system. People that go to dances here expect to pay #5-#12 for a good local band. We play all one nighters and generally get paid on percentage of the income at door. Bars can't generally pay much because there is no cover charge and most can't hold 100 to 400 or more people. Private parties and weddings are a flat rate. It's our job to be more alive than a dj and bring people in the door. We are lucky to have dancehalls all over Texas, some over 100 years old.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Dec 2007 7:03 pm

Ben Jones you forgot:

i don't like having my hand stamped at the door by a germ covered rubber stamp used by 100's of people, never cleaned. And the dude before me had Psoriasis all over him.

I haven't been to a bar that featured a live band in over 10 years. Between the drunks, smoke, drinks spilled all over me. My outside mirror busted off my car, cops waiting for you to pull out of the parking lot, i don't see myself going anytime soon. I don't miss it.

We also have lost some good places to play in Texas. Madd has taken it's toll. Many have become churches.

The most rewarding place to play is in chuch.

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