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Topic: Harmony and theory |
Mark Butcher
From:
Scotland
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Posted 2 Oct 2007 11:29 pm |
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Late in life I have gone back to college to study music. Despite all the other students being metal guitar fans the course is relentlessly classical and all theory. Here in the UK that means grades from the ABRMS which are unchanged since I was at school.
Its obtuse, full of jargon and all about what you can not do. I’m into it far enough now to realise that much of it is also irrelevant to anything but classical music.
Can anybody recommend some good harmony books? |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Joe Stoebenau
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 8:59 am
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Hi Mark,
It depends on what style of music you want to learn.
Generally it seems everything is broken down into classical style theory or jazz theory.
If you want to learn song forms and scales and how to use chords and where to place them then I would go with jazz style courses. Somewhat off the steel guitar radar is a great source for most anything jazz related is jameyaebersold at www.jazzbooks.com
many theory courses there. I like The small book by Dan Haerle called "The Jazz language". Also many fantastic dvds of classic jazz there as well.
Jam On,
Joe |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 9:12 am
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Mark, your post made me curious so I checked out the ABRMS online at
http://www.abrsm.org/?page=exams/gradedMusicExams/latestSyllabuses.html
and looked at the Complete syllabus for Theory, Aural Tests, and Practical Musicianship.
You may have a bad teacher but in my opinion (which is probably not country enough) those basics of music theory are just as relevant to today's popular music as they are to art music of 200 years ago. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 9:51 am
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| I don't know if it's still in print, but I like Popular and Jazz Harmony by Daniel A. Ricigliano. My copy is from Donato Music Publishing Co., PO Box 415, New York, N.Y. 10011. Copyright 1967, 1969. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 3:57 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
You may have a bad teacher but in my opinion (which is probably not country enough) those basics of music theory are just as relevant to today's popular music as they are to art music of 200 years ago. |
Right you are, Mr. Bovine! Gimmicky methods come and go, but theory will ALWAYS be the same.
The Leavitt/Berklee books are as good as it's gonna get. I've been working on vol. 1 now for 20 years, but hey---Nobody told me it was worth a year in college, either!
Last edited by Stephen Gambrell on 3 Oct 2007 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 5:13 pm
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| Stephen Gambrell wrote: |
Gimmicky methods come and go, but theary will ALWAYS be the same.
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Excuse me, but while I've seen many different books with different approaches, I've never seen a "gimmicky" one.
Some are geared toward classical music students, some toward jazz students, some toward beginners and others toward more advanced students, but ALL of them are worthwhile, and contain valuable information.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 7:16 pm
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| So, Perlowin, you consider the David Barge "perfect pitch" courses offered in hte back of grocery store guitar magazines to be as valid as Leavitt's, or your, books? |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 7:54 pm
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| I've seen those David Barge "perfect pitch" ads in Guitar Player magazine ("grocery store guitar magazines"? As opposed to?). It doesn't seem they claim to teach harmony or theory. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 9:09 pm
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| Actually, Brint, Barge claims that his course will help the student "identify keys"---"Compose music in your head"---"PERFECT PITCH! This is how Bach,Beethoven, and Mozart could mentally envision their masterpieces---and know TONES, CHORDS, and KEYS---all by ear!"(emphasis mine) That doesn't imply harmony and/or theory? I think you must be missing something. And I don't see Guitar Player in grocery stores---although it fits, now. I was referring to some of the OTHER guitar magazines, such as Guitar World or Guitar One. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 3 Oct 2007 9:40 pm
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I've already told you Steve, I'm not going to get into a flame war or pi$$ing contest with you. No matter how many times you try to provoke me.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 12:17 am
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Take off that hair shirt, Perlowin. I haven't mentioned your name in ANY post in this thread, until this one. I think you may be looking for an excuse, and you ain't gettin' it from me. I merely stated that theory must be learned the same way it's always been learned---Agreeing with Mr. "Bovine," as it were. He's the guy I quoted, not you.
Boy, sensitive people  ... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 2:08 am
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So basically when I got that first book back in the early 60's, Mel Bay I think..it said C was 1, F was 4 and G was 5..
thats changed ?
Is this kinda like the NEW MATH ? |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 2:48 am Re: Harmony and theory
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| Mark Butcher wrote: |
Late in life I have gone back to college to study music. Despite all the other students being metal guitar fans the course is relentlessly classical and all theory. Here in the UK that means grades from the ABRMS which are unchanged since I was at school.
Its obtuse, full of jargon and all about what you can not do. I’m into it far enough now to realise that much of it is also irrelevant to anything but classical music.
Can anybody recommend some good harmony books? |
Mark.
From the tone of your post, you are not wanting to learn about classical music ONLY. It is obvious that the curriculum that you are involved in is a strict classical study that would be very advantageous to someone who would be spending their time playing classical music. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are wanting to learn about the theory of pop or jazz or country or anything else you are in the wrong situation. Classical music has it's strict rules and regulations that have served musicians well for hundreds of years and there is a wealth of info there. If your goal is to graduate with a degree of some sort that will aid you in teaching in a formal school setting then you will HAVE to tow the line and meet the requirements of the system.
If you went back to school to learn to play anything other than classical music, then you are at the wrong school and need to get out right now. You are wasting your time and money because the rules and regulations of pop music can be learned in about 1 second....basically there are none. Whatever you want to do, you do it.
I would reccommend you take a course in arranging with an emphasis on learning chord theory. Find you a teacher that teaches everything from jazz to pop arranging and you will learn more about music that you can relate to todays musical situations and will benefit your playing. If you tell the person who you find that you are more interested in learing the theory of harmony and chords, then maybe you won't have to spend so much time learning to arrange for horns and such.
Find a copy of the Don Sebesky arranging book. It is studied today by many students in music schools. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0882840320/ref=dp_olp_2/002-3816112-7301631
Here is a link to it on Amazon.com. There are some used ones for $15. A deal. Get one with the CD rather than the plastic record that used to come in it.
If you need a book on classical theory then the harmony book by Walter Piston will serve you well.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0393954803/ref=dp_olp_2/002-3816112-7301631
This is a link to the Piston harmony book.
Best to you and kudos to your desire to study music more in depth. Just beware that the FORMAL study can be very pedantic, strict and in some cases archaic. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 2:57 am
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| Stephen Gambrell wrote: |
| Actually, Brint, Barge claims that his course will help the student "identify keys"---"Compose music in your head"---"PERFECT PITCH! This is how Bach,Beethoven, and Mozart could mentally envision their masterpieces---and know TONES, CHORDS, and KEYS---all by ear!"(emphasis mine) That doesn't imply harmony and/or theory? I think you must be missing something. And I don't see Guitar Player in grocery stores---although it fits, now. I was referring to some of the OTHER guitar magazines, such as Guitar World or Guitar One. |
Perfect pitch cannot be taught. If it could, it would be a part of every formal study of music in schools. There are countless instances of children in schools having perfect pitch and never have studied music at all. I know several teachers who had little kids who could tell her the names of notes after having heard her play them one at a time for a class. Some way they are able to assign a mental image to the note the same way we assign colors. The course by Barge would more than likely be a course in RELATIVE pitch that would use certain factors to help identify tonal centers. As an example, you learn to hear certain tonal centers if you hear them on an instrument you play all the time. I do not have perfect pitch, but I can hear a D chord on a guitar as well as an open E and a G. I can use those centers to find other pitches.
In regards to Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, every note they wrote down can be analyzed using the rules of classical theory. Their genius is in what they did within the rules of their day, which they followed to the letter and learned to the letter during their formative years. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 5:10 am
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Learning relative pitch, back in the days when my mind was less crowded, has been the key to learning music. Getting the sound of the tonic and its third or sixth provided the basics of chord formation. From there, country and jazz are played the same. Fix the sound of those intervals in your ear and you can find the appropriate theory that dominates any genre. The relationahip between the tonic and sixth, for example, leads to recognition of the relative minor. Chords begin simply, as diads, and progress in complexity. One develops a personal theory about what notes to leave out to arrive at the appropriate chords, be in in a country or jazz context. Learning classical piano just made me want to go out and play jazz with some other white boys.
Bach had already explored the major seventh, including the use of the maj. 7 with a minor 3rd.
Thus, it does not have to be taught with printed materials, altho an understanding of musical literature is helpful. You can do it yourself on a keyboard or guitar.
We are all oriented slightly different: some folks have a natural bent toward the visual; my experience has always been primarily auditory.
What's a hair shirt? Is it comfortable?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 5:15 am
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Exactly my point, Bill, although you articulated it much better than I could. I have a niece with perfect pitch---She slapped her Uncle Steve's fat belly (true story) and said,"Bb!" We went to the piano, and my gut was a few cents shy of---Bb!
By the way, Bill, what's that line of guitars you're endorsing? I want a special guitar for fingerstyle playing. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 5:59 am
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It's unfortunate that "perfect" pitch has become the generally-used term for what is better called absolute pitch. It seems to imply (though not intentionally) that there's something "imperfect" about people who lack this trait.
In fact, for all practical purposes, absolute pitch is pretty much a useless curiosity--relative pitch is the vital thing. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 5:59 am
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One of the things I always stress with my students is real-world usage. There are some great resources mentioned in this thread, and some great stuff in the archives. For a heads-up on country and pop applications go looking for threads about the Number System.
But starting now, listen to and analyze every song you can find, as far as chord progressions, and what chords are leading to the next chords. Pop and jazz standards and Beatles tunes are a great start. Seeing how past masters have assembled tunes will teach you loads about structure and harmony, some of which is not easily quantifiable in print.
Along the way you'll notice more and more as your theoretical knowledge expands, and you'll also notice that the different chords and harmonies have distinct and separate sounds you can train yourself to recognize.
I believe that Barge course is intended to provide shortcuts to that kind of ear training, and is not a theory or harmony course in itself. |
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Mark Butcher
From:
Scotland
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 7:09 am
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Today we covered Stockhausen in one class and harmonising in SATB to Bach's rules (even Bach seemed to break them most of the time) in another. Its hard going, try as I might I have never learned to read dots. I have been liberated by Finale and Logic which lets me write all kinds of music and no rules, we are told we must do all of it in our heads. If I could write whats in my head then I wouldn't need the education!
Unfortunately this is all that's on offer at a college or university where I live. Even if I could find a good private teacher I wouldn't be able to afford one. I'll get the books and keep working on it. I feel for all the young guys doing these college courses , most will be put off for life. The circle of classical musicians being the only teachers will not be broken either. Two percent of the record buying public buy classical but its still 100% of the education here. I'm one of that 2% but I like a lot of other stuff too. Steel guitar for example.
MArk |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 7:45 am
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| Mark Butcher wrote: |
Two percent of the record buying public buy classical but its still 100% of the education here.
MArk |
It is a viscious cycle. If educators did not set up programs that teach what they know, there would be no jobs for them. I see all these jazz departments churning out kids who know all the modes and every tune in the Real Book and they can't make enough money to live on. And yet all the educators who play jazz continue to teach them. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 7:54 am
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| I do not have perfect pitch, but I can hear a D chord on a guitar as well as an open E and a G. I can use those centers to find other pitches. |
I think that's true of most of us here. I submit the thought that the reason we recognize these chords is that we have all played them so often recognize the voicings.
A D chord capoed up a fret would still sound like a D chord, even it the actual root is Eb.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 8:14 am
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Also, I think we recognize the timbre that goes along with the voicings, e.g. on guitar, whether you're hearing a note on a wound or unwound string. It becomes part of the gestalt of the chord.
I have spoken with people who have 'perfect' pitch and they do tell me that they perceive a note as a kind of 'color' which, as I understand it, is what those 'learn-perfect-pitch' courses try to teach. Whether it can be learned or not, I don't know.
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 4 Oct 2007 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Oct 2007 8:14 am
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I got myself a degree in classical composition and have found it invaluable in every form of music I play. It gave me a sonic and mental road map that has made me a much stronger musician. If you can hear and comprehend Bach on even the most basic level popular forms of music are a piece of cake. It will give a window into jazz harmony also. Keep at it, study harder and it will come together.
_________________
Bob |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2007 10:34 am
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I've been having an incredible amount of fun learning "Scales & Modes" lately.
Why I didn't take the time to learn this stuff when I was 15 or younger is beyond me.
'Probably would have changed my life.
Anyway... I just do Google searches for Theory stuff I'm interested in, soak up various websites, and apply directly to whatever I happen to be working on musically.
In just blowing through some scales recently, I stumbled upon Bachs "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring".
This is a killer piece that runs in kind of a circular way that you can keep building it up and down the neck.
Another one I just stumbled on..., that ascending/descending theme-lick in Paul McCartneys "Someones 'Nockin' On My Door, Somebody's Ringin' My Bell", if I've got it right, it's a simple toggle between Lydian and Mixolydian.
'So cool!
Of course Jerry G's favorite modes.... Ionian and Mixolydian! All those Amin songs, Dorian.
Wow, the more you learn, the more you learn that you don't know.
Funn Stuff!
~pb |
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