Off-topic: Dobro question

[Landon Johnson]

Hi folks,

I have recently joined this forum and have posted a little, but now I have a question that is somewhat off-topic, yet somehow related:

I would like to learn Dobro (resonator) as I learn steel. Good idea or no - I'm just in it for the fun. Never gonna move to Nashville and be the next Paul Franklin

I have been told that Michael Kelly makes good resonator guitars - anyone have any experience in this area who could make a recommendation - square/round neck, etc. what's the diff?

Also been told 'stay away from Regal unless you're going to replace the cone"

Any advice would be graciously `appreciated if you've read the message despite it being off-topic. I'm off to hunt for a Dobro forum...

Landon Johnson

[Michael Hardee]

Landon,

Check out http://www.reso-nation.org the main resonator guitar forum.

No reason you can't learn both instruments at the same time. What you learn on one won't really carry over to the other, the left and right hand techniques are pretty dissimilar. You'll pick a lot harder on dobro for example, use your thumb a lot more than on steel.

You'll get a lot of recommendations on instruments to start out on. I really like the Paul Beard Signature Goldtone squarenecks. You can often pick one up used at reso-nation. Even brand new from Elderly with a case the PBS is about $675 shipped. You want an instrument that has been set up at the Paul Beard shop, those instruments have a label with the setup date inside under the left soundscreen.

I've owned both a Goldtone PBS and a Wechter/Scheerhorn Rob Ickes and I prefer the Goldtone PBS ... for much less money. The Rob Ickes used an imported cone and spider that needed to be replaced for best tone; the Goldtone PBS from the Beard shop comes with a quality Beard BC-1 cone and #14 spider, set up by the same guys that set up Jerry Douglas' guitars, for example. You don't need to DO anything to a PBS to have a great sounding guitar. Best bang for the buck for sure.

[Mike Christensen]

Some years ago I read an interview with Tony Rice,the great flat top picker. His advice was to focus on one when learning or you won't be worth a ---- on either. I tend to agree. My .02 worth!! Happy Trails what ever you decide. Mike C.

[Bill McCloskey]

You need a squareneck. Both Beard and Scheerhorn have an entry level dobros that are very good and won't kill the bank. You will find that there is such a difference between playing steel and dobro that it is difficult to switch back and forth especially if you are just learning. While the seem similar, they are not. The both require a different type of attack, fingering, and feel, different bars, different tunings.

My suggestion is to find the music you most like to listen to and go with that. On the practical level, it is a lot easier to lug a dobro around, it is more versatile in my opinion, and can fit in easily with many types of music. You'll probably have more opportunity to play.

If you really are honest with yourself, would you rather listen to Jerry Douglas or Buddy Emmons. Whatever your answer is, go with that.

[Chip Fossa]

I just bought a Rogue resonator from MusiciansFriend
for a whopping $149.

It's a squared-neck sunburst.

It sounds pretty good to me. I'm gonna change the tuning keys, though, to Grover 18:1 retro nickels as found in Stewart-Mac's catalog. The Rogue tuners, as expected, are 3-in-a-row, and are not very good - a lot of free play.

Square necks, according to some sites I've visited, are usually associated with bluegrass and have the neck mass to withstand certain open tunings where the strings are raised, causing more tension.
The round necks are usually associated with the blues, especially southern delta-style blues.

I would definitely get yourself like a weighted Stevens-style bar. More mass = better tone and sustain. I bought the Shubb-Pearse Guitar Steel Model 2 #3954 ($20.90) from Stew-Mac. Another great feature of this bar is that one end of it is rounded up, instead of just angled off at 45dgs. This roundness allows smooth sailing across the strings without getting hung up in the strings as the earlier Stella dobro bars would do.

There are some pretty good sites just by typing in "resonator guitar" - Jerry Douglas has a very informative one, and another site goes into tunings and differences in resonator designs. Just punch it in and check these sites out. They've helped me.

I personally think playing a dobro can only help your steel picking and vice-versa. Just look at Bill Keith and how he used his brilliant banjo fingerstyling to play some very beautiful steel.
The more you play different, but related instruments, only helps and adds to your style (IMHO).

[Jim Sliff]

Having palyed dobro since the 70's and steel just a couple of years, I can vouch for the dissimilar techniques if you're playing traditional steel. Also, most steelplayers who take up dobro (or buy dobro-sounding gadgets for their steels) play temolo-style, Oswald Kirby stuff that bluegrass dobro guys look upon as ancient history.

I also second the Beard/Goldtone or Scheerhorn-designed models (Scheerhorn's custom models have a long waiting list and a huge price tag). Regals...with some work...can be decent. Liberty in Florida was making some good stuff for budget-shoppers...havent checked them in a while but I bought a cheap roundneck that's a great guitar for bottleneck.

For bluegrass, I play a squareneck OMI Dobro from '76 with a spun, non-glued cone and a few other mods. MOST of the less expensive ones can be vastly improved with a good cone/spider/saddle and the right setup - and setup is key. Find an acoustic shop and someone who knows what they are doing and a cheap Regal can do a decent job for a "fun" instrument. I would run away from the Rogue as fast as possible...this thread is the first good thing I've heard. Fender's are not too bad, although I've never heard one with a decent cone installed. Might be a decent buy.

The Stevens bar is rarely used in bluegrass any longer. The Scheerhorn design is the hot-ticket...real ones are expensive, but there's a knockoff called the "Lap Dawg" that is incredible for the price, and much more comfortable (and easier to handle hammers/pulloffs with) than a Stevens. If you REALLY want a Stevens mail me - I'll give you one, as I think they really hold you back and use them for paperweights! Shubb makes some nice bars - I like his wood-handled one for a different sound and because it's REALLY quick.

Caveat (mentioned I think earlier) - if you plan on playing dobro, plan on it as a completely different instrument and different mindset. It has MUCH more in common with banjo than steel.

As far as the Michael Kelly instruments; There's been a ton of marketing, a load of press...but not much about WHERE they're made. As a division of HHI I assume the Florida operation is strictly marketing, and maybe setup, and the instruments are imported. I could be wrong - but my son has an OLP guitar (another HHI company) that's an imported Ernie Ball knockoff. Definitely on the low-budget construction spectrum (cheap hardware, ill-fitting parts, bolted-to-the-body pickups) The Kelly stuff I saw at NAMM impressed me as very average knockoffs...just my opinion.

[Bill McCloskey]

The Stevens bar is rarely used in bluegrass any longer. ...I'll give you one, as I think they really hold you back and use them for paperweights!

Well, it should be noted that Sir Mike Auldridge is still using the same Stevens type bar he has been using since he was 14. I don't think he feels that it has held him back. I actually went back to playing a Stevens style bar after taking lessons with Mike.

[Dennis Graves]

The comment was made about the "Oswald" style of playing being ancient in the eyes of most modern day dobro players is very true. But just give it a try on a bluegrass audience and see what happens. They just love it, way more than the typical "see how many notes" I can put in a measure that most dobro pickers seem to go after now.

[Bill McCloskey]

The great thing about Dobro is that it can be played in many, many styles. Find your own and don't be pushed into trying to imitate someone else because it is the hotest thing. There is lots to do on a dobro yet that hasn't been tried.

[Stephen Gambrell]

I've ALSO gone back to the Stevens bar---The shorter radius helps my intonation, and I find the squared-off end works better for pull-offs.
OK, I switched back 'cause Auldridge told me HE still used a Stevens ...

[David Doggett]

Most steelers play some Dobro. Although there are differences in style, these instruments are more like each other than like any other instrument. On both you have to develop good bar-hand/ear coordination to play in tune well, and you have to become a nimble finger-picker. And while there are differences in tuning, they are both tuned to an open major chord. If you were trying to become a competitive pro, it would make sense to choose one and specialize. But if you are playing for the fun of it, playing both just adds to the fun. Eventually you may decide you'd rather spend more time with one than the other. But if you don't give both a serious try, how will you know which one?

[Jim Sliff]

But just give it a try on a bluegrass audience and see what happens. They just love it, way more than the typical "see how many notes" I can put in a measure that most dobro pickers seem to go after now.

That's interesting. Must be a geographical or cultural thing - around here that style is simply considered "non bluegrass" and players and audiences alike start to get bored quickly. It's fun for maybe one song...a night.

[David Nugent]

I would like to ad my recommendation for the Gold Tone Beard as well. I own the solid mahoghany version and it sounds and plays great. Also, the Regal "Black Lightning" model is worth a look as it comes equipped from the factory with the Quarterman cone, bone nut upgrade. Musician's Friend will blow these out occasionally for great prices.

[Jim Bates]

I bought my first Dobro in 1972 so I would have a guitar to throw in the car when I went on trips and vacations wihtout having to take up most of the cargo space with amps, double neck steel and accessories and still have room for the wife and kids. It was fun sitting on a Colorado mountain top playing the dobro, which I have done many times.

After learning to do some basic rolls and bluegrass tunes, I found that it did help a lot with the picking technique and speed on my pedal steel, especially in developing pick blocking.

You can learn a lot of picking on a 'cheap' reophonic guitar. After you wear it out, then you can buy a better one, if you want.

Thanx,
Jim
Jim

[Chip Fossa]

I took a shot-in-the-dark in buying the Rogue. We all know Rogue makes "inferior" instruments (to some).

That's why they don't cost a lot. How can you go wrong for $149? I blow that much on a Friday and Saturday weekend just having fun.

I've been playing guitar for 44 years, and steel for 32.

This Rogue sounds pretty good to my ears. I presently have it in an open "D" tuning: 6D 5A 4D
3F# 2A 1D. It's a gas. I love running up and down the neck and using the bar on just the 3rd or 2nd strings and letting the 1st and/or 2nd strings ring out open.

This thing is very loud and the notes are quite crisp and clear.

I'm having a blast with it, and that's all that counts.

Maybe when I get real good on it, I'll go get me a super expensive one.

[Dennis Graves]

I agree Jim. There's a huge difference in the cultures of California and the South. Glad I'm here.

[Mark Eaton]

Glad you are happy with your Rogue, Chip, but when you say it sounds pretty good to your ears, is that compared to anything else? Have you done any A/B comparisons with another make? It's all relative, and it all kind've depends on how long you have been playing.

Actually, for beginners, I think it is a good idea to not go whole hog and purchase a really expensive reso while you are just getting your foot in the door. Once you've developed some chops on the thing, you'll have a better idea what you want in a future high end instrument, and you will appreciate it more when that time arrives.

As far as Brother Oswald, indeed there isn't that much desire for newer players to the instrument to emulate him.

That said (in the background I was just playing his first solo album, which came out in 1972, on my turntable - I've owned it since about 1974), the longer I'm around and the more I've improved in the last several years on the instrument - the more I appreciate his brilliance as a dobro player.

His style may sound dated, but he had an exquisite touch.

It reminds me of all the folks that learned about the blues by listening to Clapton, Page, Stevie Ray Vaughan and the like, and then someone turns them onto the recordings of Robert Johnson, and after giving it a couple of serious listens they say, "holy crap, why wasn't I listening to this stuff before!"

Bluegrass, shmuegrass! I like bluegrass, but I'm not really a hardcore grasser per se. It's true that the best players have honed their skills and developed exciting and innovative techniques on the instrument in the bluegrass world, but I think we may finally be turning a corner where the instrument isn't constantly associated with that genre.

As I mentioned in the thread about the late great Joe Zawinul, Jerry Douglas recorded a couple years ago a beautiful rendition of Joe's Weather Report composition, A Remark You Made.

I don't believe the dobro should be pigeonholed as a bluegrass instrument any more than piano should be pigeonholed as a classical music instrument.

[Chip Fossa]

Hi Mark,

No - I haven't A/B'd the Rogue.

I figured it was time to get me a 'dobro'; What do you have to lose? $149? Big deal.

As I said, I just bought it sight and sound unseen.
I bought my Williams U-12 the same way, and was hardly dissapointed.

["It's all relative and depends on how long you've been playing".]

Not sure what you mean by that. I mentioned how long I've been playing.

All I'm saying is I bought this 'dobro', without any great expectations, and was pleasently surprised how it sounds; and how it looks, too.

Gheez, give me a break. How about Leadbelly's old Stella 12 string; or Harmony; or Kay; or whatever it was - it sure wasn't a Martin or Gibson or Guild or any other high-end axe.

Anyway, it was what he could afford. But, guess what? It did AFFORD him the opportunity to get his music across to the world.

That's it. I'm not trying to push Rogue. It was there. And $150 seemed like a good price to get going on the 'dobro'.

Thank you.

[Mark Eaton]

Chip, my apologies about the confusion regarding how-long-you-have played part, you have played the other instruments a long time.

I was referring specifically to the dobro.



Once again, it didn't cost much, and if it sounds good to you that's the important thing.

And I'm sure in the future you'll have a chance to A/B the Rogue against other resos, and just as you have likely found in all the years of regular guitar and steel, when you play a good instrument you'll say "wow!"

I know you didn't specifically recommend the Rogue to Landon, but it did kind've come off, from where I sit, that you were a "voice of authority," by taking the time to cite your years of experience on the other instruments.

I was only trying to say, and apparently not very well, that if you A/B'd the Rogue against some better quality instruments, it's possible that you'd change your tune, and the Rogue may no longer sound "pretty good" to your ears.

By the "relative" thing (aside from the length of playing time comment), I should elaborate. I've been with groups of dobro players, and in the group are the higher end American designed/Asian built resos like the Wechter/Scheerhorn, and the Goldtone/Beard. To "my ears" these sound significantly better than the entry level Rogues, Regals, etc.

Then you play those higher end imports against Scheerhorns, (real) Beards, Clinesmiths, Guernseys, Raycos, etc., and you realize that it's the same sort of relastionship as the student cheapo six-string vs. the ballpark $1,000 pretty good six-string, vs. the Santa Cruz, Collings, Bourgeois, etc. high end six-string.

[Landon Johnson]

... and I am going to go with the Beard Gold-tone. They seem readily available, and I have learned that buying really cheep stuff can hinder more than help when it comes to a learning curve. I know the gold-tone gets bashed about a bit, but it seems like it might be the best way to go for around $750. I looked at regal also, but I understand they are pretty rough without the Quarterman cone, etc... sounds like too much retrofitting and work to get to that point - replacing a cone is not something I would be comfortable with at this point.

I have also gotten a bad vibe regarding the Michael Kelly bayou line - poorly made and inconsistent quality is what I have read from other forums/posters.

Thanks for all your great advice - that's the great thing about this forum - good advice, not ego-ridden, y'all are so helpful!

I hope I can help someone in the future who is where I am now.

Landon Johnson

[Sam Floyd]

Hi Landon

I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the subject of learning dobro in conjunction with learning steel. I received both a Fender Steel and a Gibson Hound Dog Square neck when my Dad passed away last year. While my main concentration is learning steel, I enjoy picking up the dobo at the end of a session and spending time learning it. I agree that some of the techniques are different but many of the principles are the same. The other day I was horsing around with some licks on the dobro and my wife started clapping form out in the kitchen. I asked her what she was clapping about and she said she really liked what I was playing. That makes it all worth while.

Enjoy

Sam

[Charley Wilder]

Got enough advice yet!
I have to vote against learning both at once also! I play Dobro and six string lap steel tuned alike and I STILL don't recommend you learn both at the same time. Too many subtle differences that make acoustic and electric instruments differ in style and approach. BUT that having been said, I learned to play both without any lessons of any kind so in the end it's up to you. It isn't impossible to do.

[Chris Walke]

The responses regarding not learning both, or the differences in the two instruments are somewhat presumptuous - they are assuming that IF you are playing resonator you will be playing bluegrass.

Jerry Byrd played reso but I've never heard of any bluegrass recordings from him. How differently did he approach the resonator guitar? There is an instructional DVD from Bob Brozman that focuses on acoustic hawaiian guitar, which he teaches on resonator, and it doesn't look at all like bluegrass technique. ( http://www.homespuntapes.com )

So, a lot of what crosses over between the instruments is going to depend on what style(s) you want to play.

[John Bushouse]

There certainly are differences in electric vs. acoustic Hawaiian techniques - listen to Sol Ho`opi`i's last acoustic recordings vs. his first electric recordings. Or listen to Mike Hanapi's version of "Hilo March" on electric. He approaches the electric as if it's an acoustic, and you can definitely tell. For example, acoustic doesn't have the sustain that electric does, so acoustic typically uses more rapid triplets.

So I'm betting Jerry Byrd approached the Dobro differently than he approached electric steel.

[Chip Fossa]

Mark,

The Rogue sounds good enough to learn on and even play out.

No apologies are necessary.

"Voice of Authority"? Well, I'm 60 years old and I can say with confidence that I know a few things. I wouldn't consider myself the voice of authority.

I'm well aware that a $150 'dobro', most of the time, is not going to stack up against any of those high-end names that have been mentioned so far.

I don't have any aspirations of becoming a great dobro player. But it's nice to know, that the Roque is there, didn't break the bank, and if the call comes in, well, there ya go. Case it up and go to the gig, or recording session, jam, or whatever.

Surprisingly, the thing sounds pretty OK. That's why I bothered to jump into this thread; To let those who may be strapped for the sheckles to buy a high-end dobro, that this little ole' cheap [inexpensive] Rogue will get ya goin'.

Chip-a-dee-doo-dah