Karoakie is an Insult

[LJ Eiffert]

Smile Eric West, you're on the right page,but,as a Brother to Brother don't judge them because they judge themself.Right is Right & Wrong is Wrong & that's how it should be.If you make a deal from what words you use,stand by them.This topic is deeper but,it's to Educate what we need to do in our neightborhood to keep the Steel-Guitar & it's Music Country alive. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & Pigeons

[Eric West]

Well simply, I find that doing the best for ones' self in any wage issue also helps others in your craft.

It works the other way too.



EJL

[Lillie Powles]

WOW, the animosity in here is thicker then smoke in a redneck cowboy bar, on a saturday night. I sure hope you all are ready for another point of view on this taboo national music disaster called "Karaoke". First off, whoever thinks karaoke is just a "passing fad", i've got news for you. Karaoke in one form or another has been around since the middle 70's. It's older then i am, as a matter of fact. Also karaoke today is a multi billion dollar industry. It not only involves the singers who purchase the special disc to sing along with. But also the recording end of it, as Mr Seymour just posted on, {i'll get back to that in a moment}, but also the karaoke machines, monitors, players, software, kj specialized gear, CD+G disc, video karaoke equipment, clothing, lighting, song book software, national network television programs {as bad as they may be},the internet karaoke stations, karaoke forums,and the furthest down the line, is the bar, tavern, and club owners. Not to mention your friends at BMI, and ASCAP. My friends and i enjoy singing karaoke, not that we are the best singers in the world, but none of you are the best steel players in the world either. In fact, if a singer comes into a karaoke bar, and sings "Crazy" like Patsy did it, please don't come to karaoke. Go to a live band venue.You distract from the "Spirit" and improvised fun of karaoke. Karaoke folks sing for enjoyment. They could care less about a key, other then for their house. If we are a threat to you, then the problem is not on our end. The band folks don't like karaoke, and the karaoke folks don't like bands, that simple. karaoke singers come in all forms, kids, seniors, fat, skinny, intelligent, sloppy, tee shirts, evening gowns. But they all have one thing in common. They enjoy music, and enjoy singing. Mr Redmonds with all due respect, you are trying to turn a non musician, who has had no formal musical training at all, into a musician, when she's not. Let me put a saxaphone, vibes, or a trumpet into your hands, and tell you to hit a key. I, just like a lot of you, think some of these people that "try" to sing just make a fool of themselves, and are weird. But boy, so are some musicians weird. Nothing is worse then a guy in a band from wisconsin, half stoned or drunk, singing through his nose, trying to sound like someone from tennessee, entertainment? Now to talk briefly about Mr Seymour's post. I am so glad that Mr Seymour, had enough courage to step up to the plate and tell you fellows that he has played on some karaoke tracks. I thank you Mr Seymour for adding your talent to make us some great backing tracks. You called karaoke "An Insult", did you also tell the session folks and the company you were recording for, that you felt your contribution was an insult to yourself, and your fellow steel players, and musicians? Incidentally, our own Doug Jernigan is a staff steel guitarist, for one of the worlds largest karaoke companies in the world. Chartbuster karaoke tracks are the largest in the world, and the only company that uses nashville musicians. Panorama Records, is another one.The folks at chartbuster have told me, some of the musicians that played on the original tracks, have also played on the karaoke rendition. Now, it would be ridiculous, for you to blame Mr Seymour, or Mr Jernigan for adding to the demise of your band jobs going south, after all, isn't that what they are doing? They are helping produce the very karaoke tracks, with their playing, that you all are complaining about. So i guess you will have to blame Mr Seymour, and Mr Jernigan for loosing your band jobs as well? nonsense. Sounds like not enough tissues for the issues to me. Look, we are all going to have to just learn to get through this together i guess. You may be a homeless, broke, starving musician, but i doubt very much if my singing karaoke with my friends is the reason. Karaoke is an entertainment "Business". The karaoke and band people have one thing in common, music.If a person can enjoy singing songs they hear on the radio, i see no problem with it. If they want to go out to a club, party with others, who share this common interest, that's life. I don't feel i am insulting you by doing it. If you think so....again...that's life. We are here to stay, get use to it. Karaoke folks are just as serious about contest, and their three minutes of fame, as you are about your stage jobs, or conventions, as the video's that i posted on the bottom will show. It's just letting your hair down, and enjoying yourselves, like you musicians do on your bandstands. I want you all to know, i love steel guitar music, that's why i am a member of this forum. I hope i educated some of you about karaoke, I do not mean to upset anyone. I hope you will take this post in the kind respectful way it was intended. Now....lets shake hands, and listen to some great steel radio.com.
Some people do take their karaoke, and karaoke contest very seriously, like you guys do your steel guitar shows.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ISgz_8ULLdM

Just common folks having fun, that is what karaoke is really all about. Not out to do away with live music by any means.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O70e6j42ODM

[David L. Donald]

Lillie I definitely wasn't calling it a passing fad.
I did use the word FAD because at one time,
before you were born it seems, it was.

And yes doing the backing tracks and marketing them,
IS big business these days.
And employs musicians to do it.

I live on an island with just under 100,000 people officially here,
more like 200k with migrant construction workers
and other unregistered people and tourists.

There are at LEAST 100 Kareoke bars just here alone.

People spend $300 for a bambo grass roof shack
and $150 for a system with flashy lights bragging 3500 watts,
when it's really 80 watts, and voila a running business.
It fills a need that bands don't simple as that.
And works in places bands have no chance of ever playing.

My point of view of a lost gig is.
You just didn't play what the audence wanted
and they stopped coming, and the club replaced you.

If they did it with Kareoke,
Oh my gawd, a travesty.

If they did it with a better band, playing newer music.
Oh well, they don't know good music.
Etc. Either way your out of a gig...
You may have aged or stlyed yourself out of the gig,
but no matter.

Music changes and audiences change faster.
Either find a niche and keep working it while it lasts.
Some niches die off as the fans age beyond club going..

Or YOU move into new music like it or not.

[Eric West]

Hey, if you were going to movies or watching TV in the FIFTIES you were singing along, "Following the Bouncing Ball™. It's DEFINATELY nothing new."

The only thing I've ever blamed for musicians working for less and less money, is very simply musicians working for less and less money.

Those that aren't, aren't to blame.

Those that are, can't complain.

No amino anom.. ann...

Well, you know...


EJL

[David L. Donald]

Music in the commercial domain
is subject to commercial forces.

Same as ANY business decision.

[Tim Harr]

If someone looses a gig over the fact Karaoke has replaced the band, that is a tragedy.

If some body quits a gig because Karaoke was being performed on breaks, that is a choice.

any questions?

[Charles Davidson]

At the beginning of this thread I gave my opinion concerning this plague [karaoke],I was ridiculed for making the statement that karaoke had cost thousands of musicians across the country work,I still stand by that statement because it is an ABSOLUTE FACT,Anyone can spin it any way they want,but it is the truth that is not even worth debating.I fully understand a lot of you don't depend on music gigs for your major source of income and do it as a hobby and because you love it and if you want to defend this abomination that's your right to do so.But believe it or not there are still multitudes of musicions that WANT to work and NEED to work,that can't because of this.There may be a few HOT SPOTS around that support live music but they would be in the minority not the majority.In the area I live in just a few years ago there was at least a dozen bands of all kind that always had plenty of work{I can remember having to turn work down].Now there is only ONE band that has a regular job,Why? Because of karaoke,Any musician that supports this crap,is cutting their own throat.

[Tim Harr]

The author of this thread <b>chose</b> to quit because he did not approve of the activity taking place on a break while his working band was performing.

This thread is not directed at the gigs lost to Karaoke taking thier place.

Many that rely on a gig for a living would not likely quit a perfectly good source of income and sustained employment.

I would bet that those that would <b>choose</b> to quit because of dissatisfaction with break time activity have a day job and benefit provider external to the band.

How more convoluted can this thread get?

[David L. Donald]

I think the greatly increased enforcement of drunk driving laws,
and the greatly increased club insurance payments
has done far more harm to the working musician than kareoke.

Add the influx of ever greater mindless dance tracks with DJ's,
syphoning off the younger listeners

People just don't go out as often for a party,
they also just don't go as far to do it.

The ones that still do, don't listen to 90% or more
of the music preferred in this forum.

The kareoke phenome is easy to provide close to home, in a small venue.
So people go there because.
a) it's close
b) less risk of a DWI pinch
c) it isn't as loud
d) they can be the 'star'.
e) it is a group endevour

Understanding it is not the same as appreciating it.
I don't support it, cause I don't care about it.
It is just another fact of life, deal with it.

There was a time Cole Porter played piano in a 'Music Store"
playing sheet music for the buyers to hear a
newly published tune. Well piano players and singers,
are not gettin thoese gigs anymore, but we have given-up
complaining about that lost gig.

Times change, music changes, the public that goes out changes.
If you live long enough, much of what you like changes
or goes away.

They will always wash your windows
and check the water and air at a gas station.
TV will NEVER make it.
TV will kill the movies.
Man was not meant to fly.
Rock n roll is a passing fad.
Computers will never leave the laboratory.
Things never change, and neither do I.

[Herbie Meeks]

The DUI enforcement definintly made the party folks stay home
Here is a party scene that could be found in many joints in any town with live bands, you did not have to be a star to pick like this, Just let your hair down and put on a show. this is a classic ,Enjoy,

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhixf_jerry-ray-fats

HM

[Charles Davidson]

Sorry,can't buy the DUI defense,The same bars that had live music,and went to kareoke still sell alcohol and produced just as many drunks as ever.Maybe more,no sober sane person could last all night.

[Clyde Mattocks]

I can witness firsthand that the vigorous DUI
enforcement caused the downhill slide in the bar
business. It was almost overnight around here.
The folks who were busted spent thousands in lawyers
and fines and the folks who weren't drinking or had had only one or two got tired of the harassment.

Now I certainly don't want to meet a drunk on the road at 2 A.M., but they didn't hassle the ball games, races, or state run liquor stores and other
places where people drink. Did you ever notice when
your local T.V. station does a story on alcohol abuse, they always show that stock footage of
people drinking in a bar, suggesting that that is
where all of societies' problems come from, when in
fact that is the one place that has the most surpervision. The bars will give you a ride home
if you have had too much. The DUI enforcement only
opened the door for karaoke.

[Charles Davidson]

Clyde,you made a lot of valid points,but the point I'm trying to make is a LOT of bars in my area [a lot of them I worked in]most are still open,but changed from live music to kareoke,they all sell alcohol,no matter if they get drunk listening to live music or kareoke,they are still DRUNK.maybe more so in the kareoke bar,I'm sure a lot of kareoke singers have to get three sheets in the wind to have the nerve to get up and make a fool of them selves.I know of only ONE bar here that was closed by the law,It was'nt by the dui laws,but by thugs fighting in the club and parking lot.Too many 911 calls did them in.

[David L. Donald]

There are many more bar fights on band fronting dance floors
than in typical kareoke parlors.

Again it has a lot to do with smaller spaces doing it,
that can't afford bands because business is way down.
It isn't one or the other guys,
it's ALL of it TOGETHER.

[Herbie Meeks]

CLYDE
I can also witness first hand,!! The Big Campaign !! The Cops seemed to be in full force around midnight. picking up customers, the breathalizer tests, also arresting passengers for being In and about a vehicle, big fines, some that could afford a Lawyer, contested the charge in court, saw some cases tossed out,
Any How, I witnessed this all happen within one week, This being a tourist town, Hot Springs, AR.with many Large Joints of all genre of music. the word spread fast, many musicians lost their jobs within the one week peroid, Many moved on to other States where the law was more lenient, I took a sit down job in Oklahoma, at a private club, 2 1/2 years, then joined the Holiday inn circuit, also picked some VFW Halls. along this circuit. Burnt out.
I finally semi/retired. ( And I will stand with You. That DUI campaigne certainly reduced the customer count at the larger Joints, They could no longer hire the larger bands, The bigger bands needed a Steel Guitar, Personally I think that was the end of A Steel in ever band, also the larger Joints were forced to operated on a smaller scale.

HM

[John Steele]

Here is a paragraph from "This is your brain on Music" which has changed my perspective on things:

" Jim is one of the funniest and most fiercely intelligent people I know, but he is shy. For his doctoral degree at Harvard, he performed fieldwork in Lesotho, a small nation completely surrounded by South Africa. There, studying and interacting with local villagers, Jim patiently earned their trust until one day he was asked to join in one of their songs. So, typically, when asked to sing with these Sotho villagers, Jim said in a soft voice, "I don't sing," and it was true: We had been in high school band together and although he was an excellent oboe player, he couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. The villagers found this objection puzzling and inexplicable. The Sotho consider singing an ordinary, everyday activity performed by everyone, young and old, men and women, not an activity reserved for a special few.
Our culture, and indeed our very language, makes a distinction between a class of expert performers - the Arthur Rubensteins, Ella Fitzgeralds, Paul McCartneys - and the rest of us. The rest of us pay money to hear the experts entertain us. Jim knew that he wasn't much of a singer or dancer, and to him, a public display of singing and dancing implied he thought himself an expert. The villagers just stared at Jim and said, "What do you mean you don't sing?! You talk!" Jim told me later "It was as odd to them as if I told them that I couldn't walk or dance, even though I have both my legs".

This is your brain on music - pp 6-7 by Daniel J. Levitin
..............................

-John

[David L. Donald]

Kareoke is proof that many people simply ignore
the socially implied expectation to
stay quiet if you can't hold a tune.

Other society's don't have this as much.
In France most any night out for a group dinner will end up
in rather drunken group and solo acapella singing.
And maybe an instrument or two if someone has one.
it is part of the social engine there.
One of my favorite parts.

Down here there are snooker and Kareoke parlours purpose built.
You can rent a living room sized space for 4-8 friends
with a sound system, mic, and big TV
with BYOB or bar service by the hour.
It is part of the bonding culture,
similar to the japanese thing.
They used to drink sake and bond,
now they drink Suntory whiskey, sing and bond.

Thinking more on the original post.
it isn't kereoke that is insulting you,
but it IS an insult from the owners of venues
throwing you off, to run kareoke.

In the old days if you lost a gig to a MUCH better band
that you didn't know. You were mad at the club owner
a LOT more than the better band.