Karoakie is an Insult

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 28 Aug 2007 1:04 pm

James,I do detest this crap we are talking about,[BUT I WAS NOT THE ONE THAT QUIT A JOB BECAUSE OF IT,I NEVER SAID THAT].Also Joe has every right to his opinion,but I think he's wrong and is living in the land of OZ when he denies that thousands of musicions have not been hurt by kroakee,This is a FACT not fiction.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 28 Aug 2007 1:18 pm

Man Charles, I apologise for that, I guess I need to check into OZ for awhile!!

I've been folowing the thread for a bit, and today I just clic-ed onto the latest comments. I DO have a photographic memory, it's just out of film!! I will edit it.

Joe Butcher · Post by **Joe Butcher** » 28 Aug 2007 3:48 pm

Then maybe you should move to OZ because theres plenty of gigs here.

There's all kinds of music out there that warrants steel guitar.

Theres PLENTY of clubs that dont do karaoke.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 28 Aug 2007 7:15 pm

Geeeeze, Joe, you're stealing all the neat ideas here. I'm working on some exclusive 8-tracks of all the area's Karaoke Canaries singing 'Crazy'. Nice thing about this project is that all 500 tracks will be in 'Patsy's key' so even more Canaries can sing along with it. Are we having fun yet??
PRR

Landon Johnson · Post by **Landon Johnson** » 28 Aug 2007 7:27 pm

... for me, anyway, is the intonation. I find dissonance painful and very discomforting in any situation, and I cannot enjoy Karaoke at all if the person isn't on key. I can't stand to listen to myself sing because of this; I am NO singer.

Karaoke has its place, but for me it's in a sound proof booth.

And yes, I have lost dozens of playing opportunities due to the Karaoke craze. I'm not in it for the money; I'm just an exhibitionist

and I don't get the opportunity to have an audience much anymore. All of the 'critter clubs' are going Karaoke...

But it is a FAD and someday will go away. This new rash of Karaoke based reality shows should help its demise and someday soon the phone will ring.

I'll use the time to learn the steel guitar so that when it does, I'll be more versatile and have more fun

Landon Johnson

Landon Johnson · Post by **Landon Johnson** » 28 Aug 2007 7:34 pm

Darvin Willhoite wrote:Karaoke tracks are great to practice with, I've bought a mess of them from Itunes.

I've discovered this too, and I use BIAB to practice with. It's a great program and I can uuse it to learn new songs - set 'repeat' to like, 100...

Landon

Landon Johnson · Post by **Landon Johnson** » 28 Aug 2007 7:39 pm

Pete Finney wrote:
One time I was hired to sing at a private club with my tracks.

Isn't "singing to tracks" the very definition of "karaoke"...?

(snip)

But as someone who makes a living playing music it strikes me as a whole different ballgame to hire yourself out as a professional performer while using prerecorded tracks instead of real musicians. I know there's quite a few here who do that and I guess you got to do what you got to do but THAT is undermining the whole idea of live performance, and live music in my humble opinion.
I agree, but will admit that I have played out to tracks - but they were tracks I recorded myself playing instruments (except drums which were layered note-for-note using a MIDI keyboard)and I would leave out the vocal and whatever instrument I decided to play in that song.

Landon

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 28 Aug 2007 8:17 pm

The 'Canaries' haven't hurt me yet either. I'm playing more now than I ever have and getting paid for it. I've also spent much more time in my meager studio recording with other area musicians. I've been playing steel in three groups which keeps me running ragged at times. . .especially this past 2 months. Tomorrow I'll/we'll finish the last 2 tracks for a new album to be released in October. I find it more rewarding to fine-hone my skills to make them suitable for recording than even live gigs. The live gigs are more fun, but the recording and our album sales has proven to be more financially rewarding. If my partner in crime agrees to it, her second album will be made available on the Forum. She did well on the first album and we expect that this new one will far transcend expectations. Whitney and BMI steels are used on most of the tracks, low-strung bass, and even an autoharp here and there. This injects the steel guitar into a whole new area of music. Jim Sliff and ebb have heard prior results. If I can ever figure out 'links', I'll put a couple tracks on the Forum when they're done.
Fad is the proper term for this entire Karaoke thing. It'll blow over in time. I have also discovered that 200 or 300 cable/satellite channels for home entertainment and the computer itself, no one wants to go out for live anything anymore. The decline in live music can be blamed collectively on all of the above. . .not entirely on Karaoke or DJ's. True, the few remaining live gigs become more selective and progressively fewer in number. The so-called competition gets stiffer. If you hang tough with a good group of musicians, AND take a little time to PROMOTE yourselves, the live gigs are there. Learn the music, get it down good and tight, and pass out cards and sample CD's to those who plan events. They don't have to be high-tech productions. Actually, a well-made 4-track-analog-to-CD sampler will suffice well. These can be made with equipment that most of you already own. Henry J. Kaiser once said that "Problems are nothing more than opportunities in work clothes". One can also start up his/her own gig. Talk to community leaders re: local festivals, etc. Get into the mix when plans are being laid for entertainment. You'd be surprised at how few people in these positions even know where to find entertainment or how to even book a band for an event!!! No lie!!! There was a fund-raising benefit for a local resident recently who, along with her 4-year-old son, were killed in a car accident. The medical bills for the surviving son were astronomical. The planners simply didn't know where to get the entertainment. I was in the right place at the right time and helped in the planning. Result -- two gigs with two bands. . .one country, one Gospel. We all could have been paid very well, but we all, collectively, opted to donate our pay to the cause.
If you sit back and wait for the phone to ring, it most likely won't. If others don't know you're out there, you'll simply get passed over. Take out a photo ad in a local newspaper. Visit local fraternal organizations on 'open-door' nights (dances, fish fries, etc.). Press the flesh a bit. Pass out cards to people. The results will be rewarding. I sold one of our CD's to a total stranger in town. He wanted to pay full price, but I met him half way and sold it for half. He was overjoyed. Gotten two good-paying gigs this year alone along with the dinners that went with them. . .FOUR BLOCKS FROM MY SHOP DOOR!!!! It CAN be done!!! BTW also sold a few CD's at those two gigs!!! AND the word is now 'out' all over town (pop. 1500).
PRR

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 28 Aug 2007 8:36 pm

Bobby Corn from E. Flat Rock NC also used to make all his own rhythm tracks, then play steel and sing along with them. He commuted for a long time between his home in the mountains of NC and his gigs in Myrtle Beach SC. He became so much in demand, he had to leave home and move out to the 'Strand'. Last I heard he was still playing the Charlie Ward-converted Sho-Bud S-10 on D body. Anyone out there ever see him??
PRR

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 28 Aug 2007 9:25 pm

Well,I guess you know you've made it when all the Karaoke Singers are singing your song in all the bars around this OZ Earth. Thanks to Mr. Cox for this Education. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & Pigeons,it's a Band.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 29 Aug 2007 3:15 am

Paul Redmond, Thanx for the cool outlook. You are definately makeing lemonade out of lemons! So are you, Joe B.!

Corky Anderson · Post by **Corky Anderson** » 30 Aug 2007 10:38 am

I think the Karoakie thing is funny, and it has never cost me a gig. I agree with Joe when he says the work is there for the taking if you want to get off your duff and go get it.I have been networking myself for the past 8 yrs or so, and I have yet to be short of work. As a matter of fact I am now getting calls for gigs well into next year! I sure don't consider myself a great steel player, but I can handle most situations. The bottom line is if you stay on the radar, so to speak, you will work all the time, Karoakie or not!

Carter D-10 NV 1000/400 Lexicon Mx 200
Tele...........twin......boss pedals

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 30 Aug 2007 8:05 pm

I was going to say what Bob Blair said about male strippers but he beat me to it. Maybe it's a Canadian thing, but watching a little karaoke would be a whole lot more fun.

What was even worse, back in the day, was brushing the bobby pins off my steel from the stripper that performed at lunch time, who used it as a convenient table. And I never even saw her. Talk about adding injury to insult.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 30 Aug 2007 9:05 pm

The predecessor of Kareoke was the Sunday Family Jamboree format.

Then we musicians had a gig, for 12 hours,
a few sets of our stuff, and many hours of
lame Patsey Cline, Elvis, Dolly and Hank
wanna-be-impersonators.

Hey! Whattaya mean what key?
I do Dolly in The Right Key!
Don't yon know it?
Sure, lets do it.

You start playing in G,
and they start singin in C#, then F, then Eb,
hit G on the fly, think it's wrong and go back to C#.
End in D and then give the band a dirty look
for messing with their artistry...
I said Dolly's key!

At least these poseurs and micro-egomaniacs can NOW
go some where else for the turn in the limelight fix...

Yes, we used to inflict this on ourselves,just so a few
nice kids could also get a some encouraging stage time,
in between the old losers, reliving a past there never had.

Yeah sure sometimes you WOULD get a retired performer with a real voice class and style come up for a song or two,
but in general you spent the day PRAYING one of them would show up.

Kareoke is not going anywhere.
It will find its equilibrium socialy
and stay at that level on going.
Why?

Because it fills a nitche in the human psyche.
The urge to get up and be the star for a few minutes,
and not have to put in the time to really LEARN how.
ANYONE with the nerve can do it.

Ah I remember Jamborees at the
12-20 Chinese restaurant, truckstop, country bar, whorehouse, cafe.
Thems was the days!
Sundays never seemed so long.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Aug 2007 9:47 pm

Man, I'm not into karaoke - not at all. But it seems to me that some of you are really carrying a burden - and a longstanding grudge - on this.

In essence, this is about a bunch of people getting up in public and baring their souls singing - mostly very poorly - in front of a bunch of their friends. I don't understand it, and probably never will. But I truly don't understand this level of anger.

In all seriousness - pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants, and other traditional venues for popular music performance - are not our personal self-expression playgrounds. They are, mostly without exception, capitalist enterprises designed to make money by selling boooze and sometimes food to paying customers. They don't stay in business long without catering to their clientele, and that goes for entertainment as well as food and drink. Frankly, that is what put the music most of us love on the map. We are not talking about Carnegie Hall, the Metropolitan Opera, or musical purity.

Again - in all seriousness - if you want to purvey your brand of music to the public and can't find a commercial venture that wants to sponsor you - then you could consider renting out your own hall and sponsor and promote your own concerts. That is the meaning of free enterprise, which is unfortunately lost on much of modern society, which seems to think that someone else owes them that sponsorship and promotion, regardless of whether or not it fits with their goals, dreams, and aspirations. I'm sorry, but I don't think it works that way.

Before you flame me out the door - I very stubbornly don't play karaoke venues because I'm convinced that my audience would never tolerate being around it. But I truly believe this anger cannot help your cause. IMHO, it's very hard to make progress until one moves past all this, and figures out how to deal with reality - the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 30 Aug 2007 10:39 pm

Actually I'm in doubt, if karaoke is just a lighthearted way to sing your heart out in front of an audience, the lack of quality being the entertaining part of it, or if those people doing it actually, to their own ears, are just as good as anything on the radio or in the clubs.
If you hear WHATs the most popular music, it seems to be something that almost ev'ry teen could do with Ejay and a little patience.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Aug 2007 4:12 pm

Well leave it to Happy Friendly Little Eric.

Unless you're willing to get a bulldozer and level the place, or otherwise "reason" with the proprietor making him an offer he can't refuse it's all just a bunch of well meaning whine.

Unions?

Gee, maybe when they can convince card carrying members not to work for free....

Sorry, but the obvious just doesn't seem to surface by itself sometimes.

FHLE

Joe Butcher · Post by **Joe Butcher** » 31 Aug 2007 4:43 pm

I like Eric.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Aug 2007 5:04 pm

Well, I do have my charming moments...

EJL

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 2 Sep 2007 5:49 am

Well,Eric & Joe you finally hit the nail on the head of this topic.The real Music Business is what it is,Business! It's not about helping anybody in a Kari-o-kie Career.Unions,Why don't you open up a little more about this point if you both are Union so we get a better understanding why Bob Cox Quit his gig! Joe,now you'll understand why California is not the place to come to.No Country Union Gigs in Night Clubs. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & Pigeons.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 Sep 2007 7:08 am

Well, I'm not, but I will:

No Union can look out for craftsmen that refuse to look out for themselves.

The Musicians' is not the worst. The Teamsters' is. Perhaps they are a close second.

Believe it or not, plenty of Teamsters drive trucks for free.

My line is when working in or for an establishment or business that makes money because of what you are doing you should be making money. Not panhandling.

Everybody knows the difference between "jam sessions", "charity gigs" and "old folks homes" and Working for Free.

If they don't, they're too stupid to play.

Unions can't look out for people that stupid, even if they try.

The first time a Union Rep "comes out of negotiations" and explains that 'he did the best he could, but there have had to be concessions, and wages have had to 'go down'" his car should be on fire in the parking lot.

The second time, it's his house.

There is no third time. -Salty Old Friend of Labor-

Ah, the good old days..

EJL

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 2 Sep 2007 8:14 pm

Hey Eric West,you said everybody knows the difference between "Jam Session" & Charity but,what I'm talkin' about is,are you & Joe Union and you said no.With that I will tell you their are many Professional Musicians that if they had to wait on the Union to fine them work they would never beable to feed their family,I know I was one of them. And as one use Union Musician I did a lot of scab sessions like a lot of other famous Musicians.So add the Night Clubs and many other out door gigs and now you know that that how Karaoke [Kari-o-kie] took over because the Union became weak in trying to be so head strong in control of peoples soul.Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.& Pigeons PS Thanks to Bob Cox for this Education.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Sep 2007 8:31 pm

Kareoke was not a direct response to Union presure for high musicians wages.
It was a response to PUBLIC demand
to get on a fad that stroked individual egos.
AND made the bars money.

Bar owners are not all stupid as stumps...;
I can put in a one time cost $400 for equipment,
and once every omnth or 2 pay for $30 in new kareoke cd's.
And it brings in lots of money. Hmmm makes sense.

Or shell out $5,000 every month for bands that
fill up the same or fewer seats...

No brainer business wise. AND they don't have
to deal with flaky musicians;
Oh sorry boss, but
the bass player quit and we can't play tonight etc.

Not to say that we all are like that,
but from the bar owners view point... too many are.

Few places can afford bands all week long,
so they try kareoke and see that it works.
Great more nights of filled seats.

Then one night a band no show's and he HAS to run the Kareoke to keep the place from exploding..

Hey guess what! Happy customers and he didn't fork
out $400 to do it, and less drunken fights too.

Win win for owner.

Uniojn gigs seem to work in big cities like NY.
Usually only in big hotels and certain high profile clubs.
And the studio scene in some places too.

But most places it's a none starter on the actual working musician's world.

I haven't met more than a handful of retired union players getting a decent pension, and the old pickers home donating them one final bed.
I am sure they exist, but a distinct minority.

Most players pick till they drop,
and marry a mate with a company pension plan.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 Sep 2007 8:37 pm

No, I understand completely. The Pres of Local 99 here in the 80s used to call up and ask if I knew where he could get rat gigs.

A Scab crosses a Picket Line to work, taking a Union Man's Job and rubbing it in his face. A good and deserved way to get hurt, or at the very least to get spit on and locked out of any Union Membership until they quit keeping records, which is forever. Never done it, never will.

A Rat is a Non-Union Worker. I've always been a Rat. Damned Charming one at that. Made more money than a lot of my "non-rat" counterparts.

Still a better creature than a Union Rep that negotiates his brother's wages down, or stands by making deals that diminish the craft.

I'm a "foreman" or a "truck boss" over ten or twelve (depending on which new guy has the week off.. ) I've always worked the largest construction paving, excavation, etc, jobs, and I always get a kick out of Union Reps that come around trying to "organize", and always either laugh them off the site, or just harrass them until they leave out of embarrassment. They have nothing to offer except selling you out for part of your hard earned wages.

If you get a chance, the movie "Hoffa" describes what happened to the Teamsters' Union.

Musician's Unions have been about as laughable in comparison to what they used to be.

Everything goes in a circle.

Union or Non, Musician or "Karoke Queen", or "DJ". It's making money that's important. I have friends that run Karoke, and DJ. I have friends that do all kinds of things.

It is interesting to see the facets of these fads unfold, and how people that are intend on getting paid for what they do manage to keep getting paid.

Also worth not letting go by is not excusing people for demeaning their craft "because everybody else is doing it", or more often "It beats sitting at home". It doesn't.

That's all.

Certainly no reflection on those that have worked hard for what they've gotten, Union or Non.

Lloyd Green made a s#**load of money through the Union, and earned every penny.

Far as Club Owners go. I find myself a mortal enemy to their success if it comes to which one of us deserves to make the money.. I am the dog to their cat, the Road Runner to their Wiley Coyote. I don't care if them or their families starve. I know what side of the pay window I am on. If they can make it so that I can come in, do a good job, and help them bring their business up, while I get paid what I deserve, fine. If I can't, it's their fault, and I'm not going to "pony up" or put out the "panhandling sign".

(Spel Korektion when I get tyme..)

EJL

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 2 Sep 2007 9:10 pm

Hello Mr.David L.Donald,I'm not against Kareoke[kari-o-kie]myself.What this topic was about Mr.Bob Cox quiting his gig over this!You're on the same page with me I think to a point.My point is real Business people are not stupid {Club Owners}But,some Musicians are pretty naive!!! They don't know when they are blessed to have what they have.I'm just trying to help the battle out here in Southern California for the Young who are so green about the Music-Business let alone the Steel-Guitar in Country Music. I'm sitting on a Book that I wrote called, " Who used Who?,MY Memories. Til the right money comes along I'm waiting before I put it out myself because I don't want this Book Killed.If you would like to drop me a line my Nest Box is P.O. Box 5412,Buena Park,Calif.90620 & I'll send you some of my back round in this Music Business World. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.& Pigeons

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