That's not like the record
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
-
chris ivey
- Posts: 12703
- Joined: 8 Nov 1998 1:01 am
- Location: california (deceased)
kevin...i hear what you're saying and i would expect no less from a touring act performing hit songs...many young players impress me with their ability to cop the record licks....i hope they're getting payed fairly..i've heard horror stories of what some talented guys have to play for...maybe the groupies help ease the pain.
-
Bobbe Seymour
- Posts: 7418
- Joined: 12 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
- Contact:
If copying licks is what you are hired to do, then you have to do it. I'm just not going to take a job doing that. I won't take a job where I'm just trading my time for money with no thinking on my part. Hey, if that's your bag then do it. Make that money, then I won't be called to do it and that will be good.
In the beginning of a players learning curve, this is good if he can get any job, he can actually learn by copying what others have done. At least this way he can get paid while he's learning.
HOWEVER, A player that has been playing 50 years and still can only get jobs by playing other steel players licks doesn't command much respect from his peers. What if Buddy Emmons would have based his whole career on playing exactly like Walter Haines, or Bud Isaacs? In the beginning he did,(in 1955-6) but soon set his own standards, the rest is now history. And a good one.
Like playing others licks? I doubt it if you are a good steel player, but I find it fun to play the signature licks on some songs, even if I think they might suck. Actually, I love playing the old Ray Price songs that Jimmy did, like "Curtain in the Window", Crazy Arms, and the old Buck Owens and Waylon songs that Ralph Mooney did, SOOOOOO >
I guess what all this boils down to is, if it's a GOOD lick/signature, it's fun to play, if it isn't, it's more fun to play something better.
Now a short story: When I recorded an album with Johnny Rivers in 1974 and then was hired to play the songs on the road with him, he wanted me to play the exact licks I had composed on the record. My reply was WHY? I've had a lot more time to learn to play better things now! However, I ended up having to copy my own "first run" licks for all the road shows we did after that. I didn't like it, but it paid REAL well, so I did.
For you guys that feel the licks should always be played just like the record, Buddy E. seems to always try to play the same things he played on the original hits he recorded 40 years earlier. Watch him play "Please Release Me" sometime, he'll play it just the way he did with Ray Price, and we all know he could play it a million ways more comlicated and more exciting, but his good taste keeps him from doing so.
The secret here is knowing what to do and when to do it, sometimes when it's possible to get away with it and you have the ability, go ahead, let it all hang out. However, most the time, have the good taste to let the folks listening enjoy what they like best, put yourself in their place, what do they want to hear you do. Taste, tone and tons of money! The three "T"s.
No hard fast rule here, just use your best musical judgment, taste! The right thing at the right time. Do what you can do to make others enjoy you and what you are doing.
This message came to you from the makers of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Oh, never mind,
(And a partridge in a pear tree, and that's when I woke up!)
Bobbe
In the beginning of a players learning curve, this is good if he can get any job, he can actually learn by copying what others have done. At least this way he can get paid while he's learning.
HOWEVER, A player that has been playing 50 years and still can only get jobs by playing other steel players licks doesn't command much respect from his peers. What if Buddy Emmons would have based his whole career on playing exactly like Walter Haines, or Bud Isaacs? In the beginning he did,(in 1955-6) but soon set his own standards, the rest is now history. And a good one.
Like playing others licks? I doubt it if you are a good steel player, but I find it fun to play the signature licks on some songs, even if I think they might suck. Actually, I love playing the old Ray Price songs that Jimmy did, like "Curtain in the Window", Crazy Arms, and the old Buck Owens and Waylon songs that Ralph Mooney did, SOOOOOO >
I guess what all this boils down to is, if it's a GOOD lick/signature, it's fun to play, if it isn't, it's more fun to play something better.
Now a short story: When I recorded an album with Johnny Rivers in 1974 and then was hired to play the songs on the road with him, he wanted me to play the exact licks I had composed on the record. My reply was WHY? I've had a lot more time to learn to play better things now! However, I ended up having to copy my own "first run" licks for all the road shows we did after that. I didn't like it, but it paid REAL well, so I did.
For you guys that feel the licks should always be played just like the record, Buddy E. seems to always try to play the same things he played on the original hits he recorded 40 years earlier. Watch him play "Please Release Me" sometime, he'll play it just the way he did with Ray Price, and we all know he could play it a million ways more comlicated and more exciting, but his good taste keeps him from doing so.
The secret here is knowing what to do and when to do it, sometimes when it's possible to get away with it and you have the ability, go ahead, let it all hang out. However, most the time, have the good taste to let the folks listening enjoy what they like best, put yourself in their place, what do they want to hear you do. Taste, tone and tons of money! The three "T"s.
No hard fast rule here, just use your best musical judgment, taste! The right thing at the right time. Do what you can do to make others enjoy you and what you are doing.
This message came to you from the makers of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Oh, never mind,
(And a partridge in a pear tree, and that's when I woke up!)
Bobbe
Well Bobbe, I remember you told me you were neigbors in Nvl with a guy that made his whole life out of playing "exactly like Buddy Emmons." He did pretty good for himself, is one of the people that BELONG in the SGHOF, and in my estimation is one of the only people that ever emulated one person, and did it better than the original. JMHO.What if Buddy Emmons would have based his whole career on playing exactly like Walter Haines, or Bud Isaacs? In the beginning he did,(in 1955-6) but soon set his own standards, the rest is now history. And a good one.
I remember spending a lot of time learning Thanks A Lot, in your style, and as "note for note" as I could. If I was doing something wrong, then I guess I'm just a Bad Dog....
Glad to see you out here in the thoroghfare again.
I'm just plugging into my Hot Rod Deluxe /Blues Jr "stack", and I might even plug my Marrs into it tonight. I FINALLY got a couple weekends off after not answering the Bat Fhone™ for a month..
(Those Pocket Pods are AMAZING, and I wonder if you're carrying them. ( Also those little Boss pocket "recorders".)
Take care, and I'll call to shoot the s# sometime this week if you're around.
YF&OS
FHLE
-
Charley Wilder
- Posts: 339
- Joined: 9 Dec 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Dover, New Hampshire, USA
I feel sorry for those that think they have to play it just like the record. How fulfilling can that be? If I had to do that I'd quit! I didn't spend the time to learn the instrument to play it like somebody else does! Bobbe that's exactly how I stay halfway sharp. I play along with old Ray Price, Carl Smith, Eddy Arnold,Kitty Wells,Etc. Sometimes I even go modern and play along with Buck Owens and early Merle Haggard!
As Bobbe noted, if I was hired to play just like a record that's what I'd do.
But I wouldn't take the gig at this point, so it's moot anyway.
I've never had someone, even when I HAVE played in cover bands, make such comments - and I'm afraid I'd either laugh until I was in tears or tell them where to stick it.
Copying licks for ear training can be fun. Playing them live is turning yourself into a music Xerox machine. When I play live, I sound like me - you may like it, or may not - but that's what comes out. No matter how many times I've listened to recorded versions, my own version of it is what's going to be played by me.
Even famous hooks will have their own twist here or there. That's how I make it mine. I have NO desire to play a perfect copy of someone else's creation. And when I listen to a band play live, I'm bored stiff if they end up being a 5-man jukebox. In fact, when I see NAME bands play, I much prefer when they stretch things a bit and DON'T play clones of recored songs - in fact, I rarely see that happen. Usually the "record regurgitators" are mediocre coverbands. Maybe all they ever learned to do was listen to records and read tab - I don't know. But it's boring as heck to me.
But I wouldn't take the gig at this point, so it's moot anyway.
I've never had someone, even when I HAVE played in cover bands, make such comments - and I'm afraid I'd either laugh until I was in tears or tell them where to stick it.
Copying licks for ear training can be fun. Playing them live is turning yourself into a music Xerox machine. When I play live, I sound like me - you may like it, or may not - but that's what comes out. No matter how many times I've listened to recorded versions, my own version of it is what's going to be played by me.
Even famous hooks will have their own twist here or there. That's how I make it mine. I have NO desire to play a perfect copy of someone else's creation. And when I listen to a band play live, I'm bored stiff if they end up being a 5-man jukebox. In fact, when I see NAME bands play, I much prefer when they stretch things a bit and DON'T play clones of recored songs - in fact, I rarely see that happen. Usually the "record regurgitators" are mediocre coverbands. Maybe all they ever learned to do was listen to records and read tab - I don't know. But it's boring as heck to me.
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
-
Tony Prior
- Posts: 14522
- Joined: 17 Oct 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Charlotte NC
- Contact:
as usual bobbe adds some wisdom from "TIME"...( not the magazine)
But unless I have really missed the boat listen to what he says...
basically he says..( just like many )
When it's appropriate you play the signatures, when the moment allows for elaboration or a NEW approach, go for it.
And if you don't want to play any signature phrases, don't take the gig, but if YOU DO take the gig..well then....
here's the problem , if you CAN'T play it like the record ( or sort of ) you are locked into elaboration or a New approach. No option.
Doug mentions a few STOCK classics, Blue Bayou comes to mind. May I ask, those of you that do not play ANY signature phrases, what do you do in this tune, ? Wing it ? Or are you playing something different because you never took the time to learn this classic piece of music ?
I guess I am asking this..If you CAN play the stock intro's to the Merle tunes in the style of Norm, why wouldn't you ?
And I have read countless threads where folks are wanting to play like MOON..
may I ask why ?
I have seen countless regional players at shows and gigs, some very experienced long time players cannot kick off a stock Merle tune. To me if you are playing a legends material that half the stinkin' planet knows, why don't you ?
Even Home Run hitters BUNT now and then.
Someone above mentions that Doug plays OBS different each time...actually, no he doesn't. He plays the open jam parts different but plays the head exactly the same,otherwise it wouldn't be OBS would it...
I find it way more boring to sit at home and not play anything then going out on the bandstand and kicking off Merle tunes in the "STYLINGS" of Norm !
Players like bobbe were playing the phrases on the original recordings, the majority of us are playing those same songs in the clubs because those original recordings became popular and STUCK. They are good songs and have good tracks. To me a very cool steel solo from a timeless song is every bit as important to the song as the lyrics.
I'm playin' it, ( if I can )
I'll jam and open up somewhere else in the 4 hour gig Or maybe within the same song, when I'm not even supposed to play 
I'm not a regurgitator, I'm a bandstand player , bandstand players work weekend gigs, play some cover tunes, play some other jam stuff, whatever. We play a few tunes spot on, then maybe elaborate, then we play other tunes which are at times not even recognizable , even to us ! ... I get satisfaction knowing my place, what I can do and executing . I am not a first call session player.
I'm a Salesman
Not much call for Steel Guitar players in my day job
But unless I have really missed the boat listen to what he says...
basically he says..( just like many )
When it's appropriate you play the signatures, when the moment allows for elaboration or a NEW approach, go for it.
And if you don't want to play any signature phrases, don't take the gig, but if YOU DO take the gig..well then....
here's the problem , if you CAN'T play it like the record ( or sort of ) you are locked into elaboration or a New approach. No option.
Doug mentions a few STOCK classics, Blue Bayou comes to mind. May I ask, those of you that do not play ANY signature phrases, what do you do in this tune, ? Wing it ? Or are you playing something different because you never took the time to learn this classic piece of music ?
I guess I am asking this..If you CAN play the stock intro's to the Merle tunes in the style of Norm, why wouldn't you ?
And I have read countless threads where folks are wanting to play like MOON..
may I ask why ?
I have seen countless regional players at shows and gigs, some very experienced long time players cannot kick off a stock Merle tune. To me if you are playing a legends material that half the stinkin' planet knows, why don't you ?
Even Home Run hitters BUNT now and then.
Someone above mentions that Doug plays OBS different each time...actually, no he doesn't. He plays the open jam parts different but plays the head exactly the same,otherwise it wouldn't be OBS would it...
I find it way more boring to sit at home and not play anything then going out on the bandstand and kicking off Merle tunes in the "STYLINGS" of Norm !
Players like bobbe were playing the phrases on the original recordings, the majority of us are playing those same songs in the clubs because those original recordings became popular and STUCK. They are good songs and have good tracks. To me a very cool steel solo from a timeless song is every bit as important to the song as the lyrics.
I'm playin' it, ( if I can )
I'll jam and open up somewhere else in the 4 hour gig
Or maybe within the same song, when I'm not even supposed to play I'm not a regurgitator, I'm a bandstand player , bandstand players work weekend gigs, play some cover tunes, play some other jam stuff, whatever. We play a few tunes spot on, then maybe elaborate, then we play other tunes which are at times not even recognizable , even to us ! ... I get satisfaction knowing my place, what I can do and executing . I am not a first call session player.
I'm a Salesman
Not much call for Steel Guitar players in my day job
-
Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
-
Bobbe Seymour
- Posts: 7418
- Joined: 12 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
- Contact:
-
Calvin Walley
- Posts: 2557
- Joined: 11 Sep 2003 12:01 am
- Location: colorado city colorado, USA
the next time one of you comes to my restruant and orders ribs i will give you a hamburger and charge you the same price then we will see what you say.
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
-
Bobbe Seymour
- Posts: 7418
- Joined: 12 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
- Contact:
How could I have forgotten the almost automatic response that comes off the bandstands I've been playing on lately.
Sometimes it's taken better than other times..
"Hey, I (we) don't come down to your job and tell you how to flip burgers..."(cut grass) (clean toilets) (sweep floors) (you get the idea)] Then you can either help them laugh it off, or....
Probably the best one I can remember.
Lately I've been playing in circles of people I've known for years, and we're always looking for a new way to get a rise out of someone. You know.. "Tear Down Time" when all the rules go out the window.
Someone will say, like the guitar player. "Man you were really tearing it up tonite. You played GREAT".
Try looking REALLY SERIOUS and do your best "Clint Eastwood". Then pretend to go nuts on them.
"Did I fricking ask you how I played!?!?!"
"WTF do YOU know about it ANYWAY!!???!" Act like your going for your gun, and then crack up, unless you've got them going...
It came from a drummer "incident" a couple years ago where the guy has a plate in his head, and throws all the best chops you ever wanted to hear all together, with absolutely NO tempo. He'd make you bleed out your mouth after 5 hours of it. If somebody took him in back and slammed him up against the wall, he'd straighten it out for a set or two. We'd all taken our turn, and nobody wanted to mess with him that night. My local buddys called it getting "Sigmeistered"..Not a bad guy, but unless there's a lot of adrenaline set in by a terrible trauma, he just won't "focus". Providing that trauma isn't something that helps your tranquility..
Anyhow, the end of the night, and I just wanted to GTF out of there. Good venue, full house, total embarrassment.
Siggy came up and kind of quietly said,
"You played really good the last set."
I think he was just trying to make conversation, as the guy that was going to pay us had obviously skipped like he always seemed to before you chased him around town for a half a week and got shorted 25$ and had to run the check through the bank a couple times..
That was it.
"Did I fricking ASK YOU HOW I PLAYED???!!!?" I started out.
Then I just snapped.
"I don't remember asking ANYBODY HOW I PLAYED."
"IN FACT I THINK I PLAYED PRETTY FRICKING GOOD FOR THE S#### I HAD TO PLAY AGAINST."
"NAMELY THE WORST FRICKING DRUMMING, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT, THAT I'VE EVER HEARD."
....
"HOW DID YOU PLAY??!?!!"
"WELL I'LL TELL YOU:"
"IF I EVER HAVE TO SIT THROUGH ANOTHER NIGHT OF THAT KIND OF CRAP, I'LL PULL OUT MY GUN AND BLOW YOUR (*&^$##)Q HEAD OFF!!!"
He didn't look all that deflected...
"Well, I was just saying..."
"IF I EVER WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU THINK I PLAYED, I'LL SEND YOU A FRICKING LETTER AND ASK YOU TO ASK ME. BUT I WOULDN'T WAIT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND'S MAILBOX WAITING TEN YEARS FOR IT.... AND IF YOU GET A LETTER LIKE THAT, MAKE SURE IT CAME FROM ME!!"
"But Thanks..... Hopefully we'll even get paid.."
Hey. Looking back, I might have over-reacted, but you had to be there...
Now I've changed anyway.
I'm mostly always Happy and Friendly..
Hence the new Avatar..
HFLE
Sometimes it's taken better than other times..
"Hey, I (we) don't come down to your job and tell you how to flip burgers..."(cut grass) (clean toilets) (sweep floors) (you get the idea)] Then you can either help them laugh it off, or....
Probably the best one I can remember.
Lately I've been playing in circles of people I've known for years, and we're always looking for a new way to get a rise out of someone. You know.. "Tear Down Time" when all the rules go out the window.
Someone will say, like the guitar player. "Man you were really tearing it up tonite. You played GREAT".
Try looking REALLY SERIOUS and do your best "Clint Eastwood". Then pretend to go nuts on them.
"Did I fricking ask you how I played!?!?!"
"WTF do YOU know about it ANYWAY!!???!" Act like your going for your gun, and then crack up, unless you've got them going...
It came from a drummer "incident" a couple years ago where the guy has a plate in his head, and throws all the best chops you ever wanted to hear all together, with absolutely NO tempo. He'd make you bleed out your mouth after 5 hours of it. If somebody took him in back and slammed him up against the wall, he'd straighten it out for a set or two. We'd all taken our turn, and nobody wanted to mess with him that night. My local buddys called it getting "Sigmeistered"..Not a bad guy, but unless there's a lot of adrenaline set in by a terrible trauma, he just won't "focus". Providing that trauma isn't something that helps your tranquility..
Anyhow, the end of the night, and I just wanted to GTF out of there. Good venue, full house, total embarrassment.
Siggy came up and kind of quietly said,
"You played really good the last set."
I think he was just trying to make conversation, as the guy that was going to pay us had obviously skipped like he always seemed to before you chased him around town for a half a week and got shorted 25$ and had to run the check through the bank a couple times..
That was it.
"Did I fricking ASK YOU HOW I PLAYED???!!!?" I started out.
Then I just snapped.
"I don't remember asking ANYBODY HOW I PLAYED."
"IN FACT I THINK I PLAYED PRETTY FRICKING GOOD FOR THE S#### I HAD TO PLAY AGAINST."
"NAMELY THE WORST FRICKING DRUMMING, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT, THAT I'VE EVER HEARD."
....
"HOW DID YOU PLAY??!?!!"
"WELL I'LL TELL YOU:"
"IF I EVER HAVE TO SIT THROUGH ANOTHER NIGHT OF THAT KIND OF CRAP, I'LL PULL OUT MY GUN AND BLOW YOUR (*&^$##)Q HEAD OFF!!!"
He didn't look all that deflected...
"Well, I was just saying..."
"IF I EVER WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU THINK I PLAYED, I'LL SEND YOU A FRICKING LETTER AND ASK YOU TO ASK ME. BUT I WOULDN'T WAIT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND'S MAILBOX WAITING TEN YEARS FOR IT.... AND IF YOU GET A LETTER LIKE THAT, MAKE SURE IT CAME FROM ME!!"
"But Thanks..... Hopefully we'll even get paid.."
Hey. Looking back, I might have over-reacted, but you had to be there...
Now I've changed anyway.
I'm mostly always Happy and Friendly..
Hence the new Avatar..
HFLE
Last edited by Eric West on 26 Aug 2007 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Dave Mudgett
- Moderator
- Posts: 9648
- Joined: 16 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Calvin - how is it that there are different types of restaurants? Why don't we insist that every restaurant must make their hamburgers just like MacDonald's? They are, after all, the world's most-eaten sandwich that calls itself a hamburger? Why would anybody want to do it differently? Is it even a "hamburger" if it's different?the next time one of you comes to my restruant and orders ribs i will give you a hamburger and charge you the same price then we will see what you say.
btw - I already agreed that, to me personally, I think it's useful to be able to learn how to play specific things that others have created. But if that was all I was allowed to do, I would definitely find something much more interesting to do than play music.
-
Herb Steiner
- Posts: 12505
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
- Contact:
Calvin
Regarding your complaint, it's a matter of what is specifically being offered to the public, versus the assumptions people make that aren't specified.
If the sign at the entrance to the honky tonk says "band plays everything EXACTLY like the recorded version, or your money back" and the band didn't do that, your analogy would apply.
I haven't been in one of those types of venues in over 40 years of playing music in joints. Including Carnegie Hall.
However, if I went in your "restruant," which I'm not sure I'd do if it were spelled that way, and you gave me hamburger after the menu specifically said "ribs," you would definitely hear from me, as you should, since I didn't get what you specifically said I would receive.
If your menu said "meat," I'd have no bit*h about it, but then again, I wouldn't order it either.
Lots of people go into a bar expecting to meet a hot someone from the opposite sex. Do they get P.O.'d and demand their money back if they don't get lucky that night?
I don't think so.
If you came up to me and demanded a solo other than the one I'd just played, I'd politely offer you your cover charge back, if you paid one, and if you accepted the money, I'd expect you to leave immediately. Then you could take that money, change it into quarters, and go to another place and play the jukebox until the bread ran out.
Regarding your complaint, it's a matter of what is specifically being offered to the public, versus the assumptions people make that aren't specified.
If the sign at the entrance to the honky tonk says "band plays everything EXACTLY like the recorded version, or your money back" and the band didn't do that, your analogy would apply.
I haven't been in one of those types of venues in over 40 years of playing music in joints. Including Carnegie Hall.
However, if I went in your "restruant," which I'm not sure I'd do if it were spelled that way
, and you gave me hamburger after the menu specifically said "ribs," you would definitely hear from me, as you should, since I didn't get what you specifically said I would receive.If your menu said "meat," I'd have no bit*h about it, but then again, I wouldn't order it either.
Lots of people go into a bar expecting to meet a hot someone from the opposite sex. Do they get P.O.'d and demand their money back if they don't get lucky that night?
I don't think so.
If you came up to me and demanded a solo other than the one I'd just played, I'd politely offer you your cover charge back, if you paid one, and if you accepted the money, I'd expect you to leave immediately. Then you could take that money, change it into quarters, and go to another place and play the jukebox until the bread ran out.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
-
Herb Steiner
- Posts: 12505
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
- Contact:
I'm still on my soapbox. Let's get more specific.
Johnny Bush recorded "Farewell Party" with Jimmy Day. Later, Gene Watson recorded "Farewell Party" with Lloyd Green. Two different versions, two different solos.
Who's got the "correct" version?
Buck Owens recorded "A-11" with Tom Brumley, as did Johnny Paycheck but with Lloyd Green. Different arrangements. Who's got the "correct" version?
How about a standard-of-standards? "Whiskey River" has been recorded a gazillion times. If someone wants one of Willie's versions (all different, mind you), or any of a million other recorded versions by various people, should they get annoyed if they hear Johnny Bush's version?
Johnny Bush recorded "Apt. #9," with Jimmy Day. Paycheck did it with Lloyd. Tammy Wynette did it with Pete Drake.
Need I ask the same redundant question?
If your job depends on it, do what your job depends upon if you want to keep the gig. If you want to learn a particular solo to improve yourself, more power to you and Godspeed. I've done both of the above.
If you're just a civilian or an onlooker or a wannabe steeler and you can't appreciate someone else's creativity and musical effort, you have my condolences and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. JMHO.
Johnny Bush recorded "Farewell Party" with Jimmy Day. Later, Gene Watson recorded "Farewell Party" with Lloyd Green. Two different versions, two different solos.
Who's got the "correct" version?
Buck Owens recorded "A-11" with Tom Brumley, as did Johnny Paycheck but with Lloyd Green. Different arrangements. Who's got the "correct" version?
How about a standard-of-standards? "Whiskey River" has been recorded a gazillion times. If someone wants one of Willie's versions (all different, mind you), or any of a million other recorded versions by various people, should they get annoyed if they hear Johnny Bush's version?
Johnny Bush recorded "Apt. #9," with Jimmy Day. Paycheck did it with Lloyd. Tammy Wynette did it with Pete Drake.
Need I ask the same redundant question?
If your job depends on it, do what your job depends upon if you want to keep the gig. If you want to learn a particular solo to improve yourself, more power to you and Godspeed. I've done both of the above.
If you're just a civilian or an onlooker or a wannabe steeler and you can't appreciate someone else's creativity and musical effort, you have my condolences and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. JMHO.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
-
Doug Beaumier
- Posts: 15642
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Northampton, MA
- Contact:
I’m not directing this at anyone in particular, but it seems like some forum members take extreme positions and do not see the 'middle ground'. Sometimes I am guilty of this too! 
Things don’t have to be All one way or All the other way. It’s not a black and white choice between playing exact recorded "parts" 100% of the time OR improvising 100% of the time. Why can’t we agree that it should be a combination of these approaches? Play some of the hooks, the signature lines that define the song, and create a solo in the basic style of the original. Improvise your fills. That certainly works for bar bands and for most of the gigs that most of us play.
Sure, if you play with a top 40 country act, with hit records, you will have to play the recorded parts. But most of us here don’t do that and have no interest in that, as far as I know. If I can't be creative in music... I quit.
I do think that 'creativity' can go Too far. I have heard bands that change songs so radically, they are barely recognizable.
Things don’t have to be All one way or All the other way. It’s not a black and white choice between playing exact recorded "parts" 100% of the time OR improvising 100% of the time. Why can’t we agree that it should be a combination of these approaches? Play some of the hooks, the signature lines that define the song, and create a solo in the basic style of the original. Improvise your fills. That certainly works for bar bands and for most of the gigs that most of us play.
Sure, if you play with a top 40 country act, with hit records, you will have to play the recorded parts. But most of us here don’t do that and have no interest in that, as far as I know. If I can't be creative in music... I quit.
I do think that 'creativity' can go Too far. I have heard bands that change songs so radically, they are barely recognizable.
-
Dave Mudgett
- Moderator
- Posts: 9648
- Joined: 16 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
-
Herb Steiner
- Posts: 12505
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
- Contact:
Doug, I agree with your entire post. Of course, things aren't 100% one way or the other. Kevin Hatton speaks the truth when he says that the requirements of most N'ville road bands are to faithfully play the recorded arrangements.
And you are equally accurate when you state that most of us aren't in that particular situation. Like I've said previously in this thread, some songs require certain licks or solos more than others, to varying degrees, depending upon the arrangement the band has come up with, and the wants and desires of whoever's paying the bills.
It's all a matter of degree, based on the situation in which one professionally finds himself.
.
And you are equally accurate when you state that most of us aren't in that particular situation. Like I've said previously in this thread, some songs require certain licks or solos more than others, to varying degrees, depending upon the arrangement the band has come up with, and the wants and desires of whoever's paying the bills.
It's all a matter of degree, based on the situation in which one professionally finds himself.
This is of course true. A friend of mine in Houston is a bandleader with a great amount of experience in big-time country music. His version of "Heart Over Mind" isn't even in the same species as the traditional Mel Tillis version; it's in half-time, and ballad-tempo slow. It simply, to me, didn't get the essence of the song as I heard it. I could tell he was disappointed when I didn't go ga-ga over it, but I told him that he should stick to his creative guns. Like Willie did with "Whiskey River," which was TOTALLY unlike Bush's version. Looking at the success of that song, what do I know, right?I do think that 'creativity' can go Too far. I have heard bands that change songs so radically, they are barely recognizable.
.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
A "Look At Us" True Story
I'm from the "play all the signature fills and solos" school. That what I do. I'm not a creative artist, just a musician playing what's needed.
It seems most everyone here agrees that some classics, such as "Look At Us" have to be played exactly like the recording.
Guess what? Vince Gill doesn't feel that way.
Jay Dee Maness (one of my all time favorite players) told me that when he accepted the Vince gig, he told Vince he was not going to play note-for-note solos. Vince agreed.
I saw the show, and the "Look At Us" solo was indeed different. It was JayDee, and he wasn't trying to be John.
Frankly, I thought that song deserved the original solo. It didn't seem right to me. Not that it wasn't excellent, it just wasn't what we are used to hearing.
I understand that's just MHO. Vince and JayDee felt different. That's their right, and they have more cred than me or most anyone else I know.
It seems most everyone here agrees that some classics, such as "Look At Us" have to be played exactly like the recording.
Guess what? Vince Gill doesn't feel that way.
Jay Dee Maness (one of my all time favorite players) told me that when he accepted the Vince gig, he told Vince he was not going to play note-for-note solos. Vince agreed.
I saw the show, and the "Look At Us" solo was indeed different. It was JayDee, and he wasn't trying to be John.
Frankly, I thought that song deserved the original solo. It didn't seem right to me. Not that it wasn't excellent, it just wasn't what we are used to hearing.
I understand that's just MHO. Vince and JayDee felt different. That's their right, and they have more cred than me or most anyone else I know.
-
Calvin Walley
- Posts: 2557
- Joined: 11 Sep 2003 12:01 am
- Location: colorado city colorado, USA
most of the public does not know that there are different ways to play the same thing , so i just feel that they have a right to get what they are expecting to hear on the records. shucks when i started on steel i was amazed at how many ways a song could be played.
in most cases the only way the paying public knows the song is the way it was recorded. therefore i think they have a right to expect it that way...ok i will get off my soap box now
in most cases the only way the paying public knows the song is the way it was recorded. therefore i think they have a right to expect it that way...ok i will get off my soap box now
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
-
Doug Beaumier
- Posts: 15642
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Northampton, MA
- Contact:
Joey, I agree. Every time I play Blue Bayou with a band, I try to play the solo as close to the Dan Dugmore version as possible. Same thing with Together Again. There are only a handful of songs where I do that. A newer one that comes to mind is the steel intro/hook for Josh Turner's Your Man.
Speaking of Too much creativity... there was a band here years ago that would Swing everything! Even a Waylon Jennings half-time, medium tempo... would become an uptempo swing. It just didn't seem right!
Speaking of Too much creativity... there was a band here years ago that would Swing everything! Even a Waylon Jennings half-time, medium tempo... would become an uptempo swing. It just didn't seem right!
-
Doug Beaumier
- Posts: 15642
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Northampton, MA
- Contact:
Calvin, yes, the public likes to hear the sounds that are on the records. That’s why we should try to play the Important steel parts that identify a song... like a featured intro on a hit record.
But there are Not many of those signature steel lines out there. A few are mentioned above, but it seems to me that 90% of what a steel player plays on a club gig can be improvised.
Do you think the people in the crowd really pay close attention the steel fills that we put in behind a vocalist? Do you think someone is going to jump up and say, “Hey! the piano is supposed to fill the 2nd half of verse 2 !! the steel fills the 1st part of the chorus! And make sure you play it on fret 15, not fret 10, like you did in the 1st chorus.”
I mean… really. There is plenty of room for improvisation in most bands. It’s always been that way.
But there are Not many of those signature steel lines out there. A few are mentioned above, but it seems to me that 90% of what a steel player plays on a club gig can be improvised.
Do you think the people in the crowd really pay close attention the steel fills that we put in behind a vocalist? Do you think someone is going to jump up and say, “Hey! the piano is supposed to fill the 2nd half of verse 2 !! the steel fills the 1st part of the chorus! And make sure you play it on fret 15, not fret 10, like you did in the 1st chorus.”
I mean… really. There is plenty of room for improvisation in most bands. It’s always been that way.
-
Les Anderson
- Posts: 1683
- Joined: 19 Oct 2004 12:01 am
- Location: The Great White North
This thread has been a real learning experience for me and, I am sure, for many others on this forum.
My take on this is that some hit songs are identified and were made hits as much by the instrumental hooks and rides and or the melody as much as the vocalist's input.
With these types of songs, it has been pretty much agreed that the lyrics, the artist and the instrumentation all have an equal part in making the song a hit. So, the audience has every right to expect these types of songs to be played as they were originally arranged on the hit record.
The other ten million songs that bands play or back are pretty much open to personal interpretation and style.
As a side note here, I cannot fathom “Together Again” without Tom Brumley’s steel guitar. I am certain that the song would not have turned out to be the classic it is without the steel guitar almost fronting the song.
My take on this is that some hit songs are identified and were made hits as much by the instrumental hooks and rides and or the melody as much as the vocalist's input.
With these types of songs, it has been pretty much agreed that the lyrics, the artist and the instrumentation all have an equal part in making the song a hit. So, the audience has every right to expect these types of songs to be played as they were originally arranged on the hit record.
The other ten million songs that bands play or back are pretty much open to personal interpretation and style.
As a side note here, I cannot fathom “Together Again” without Tom Brumley’s steel guitar. I am certain that the song would not have turned out to be the classic it is without the steel guitar almost fronting the song.
-
Kevin Hatton
- Posts: 8173
- Joined: 3 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
- Contact:
There is not alot of room for improvisation in cover bands, and its always been THAT way. If you are in a three chord blues band or in a crappy $75.00 a night band thats a different story. People do recognize musical parts and I have had many people come up and comment on the quality of covers in some of the cover bands I've been in. If you want to play for $50.00 a night in front of nobody go ahead and improvise. You'll find that no one will listen to it very long. People want to hear the hit. Ijust made a mint playing with a well rehearsed, dressed and arranged cover band. We weren't improvising. We had more respect for the audience. I saw half the audience walk out on The Allman Brothers two weeks ago for carrying out a 45 minute mindless jam.