The Steel Guitar Forum

Aloha and Holiday Greetings to Everyone!

I'm an intermediate-level guitarist, but beginning steel player with a keen interest in both traditional and contemporary Hawaiian Steel. But I'm also fond of the Tex/Mex Western-Swing sound, and I'm trying to learn what I can about the various console instruments in hopes of making the right future purchase, without committing any grave errors or oversights. Along the way, questions of various types have of course surfaced, most of which have been readily answered by knowledgeable others, yet on certain topics, I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone, no matter how I try. Hence, I'm submitting this post in hopes that someone here in the SGF can help.

Ideally, I'd like to secure a high-end instrument that is capable of playing both styles cleanly (i.e., Hawaiian & Swing), and consequently, many have advised me to look at a new or vintage "non-pedal" D-6/D-8 (e.g., GeorgeBoard or Stringmaster) with the apparent assumption that the two necks could then be tuned to C6 (Hawaiian) and E-9, E-13, or whatever (for western/country types of applications). However, keeping in mind that I'm a relative amateur with a great deal yet to learn, a seemingly logical question then arises as to why avoid "pedal" instruments? In other words, if you're buying a double-necked instrument with the intention of having both options
(Hawaiian & Swing), why not purchase a standard D-8 or D-10 pedal instrument (e.g., Sho-Bud, Fessenden, etc.) that can presumably do the very same thing tonally, while also offering the advantages of pedals.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of these instruments to test drive them, but What am I missing here? Is it a pick-up or a circuitry issue of some kind? Outside of the electronics realm, aren't the two types of instruments (pedals and pedal-less) basically the same? And if pedals are
key to producing the Western/Swing sound, why wouldn't you want them on a double-necked guitar, especially if they don't affect the traditional Hawaiian sound? I know (for example), that the Sho-Buds are considered quite "hot" and therefore well-suited for Honky-Tonk applications, but
perhaps ill-suited for producing that richer, wetter, more ethereal Waikiki sound. Yet if that's all it is, couldn't the pick-ups on a Sho-Bud or a Fessenden or other pedal-equipped instrument simply be swapped out to something with less bite? In fact, couldn't the two opposing necks be equipped differently in terms of pick-ups (one hot/E9 and one cool/C6)?

Needless to say, my ignorance is presently at a "dangerous" level, but I greatly appreciate everyone's time, understanding and insights, and I'm looking forward to hearing from the experts on the subject.

Mahalo nui loa and Mele Kalikimaka to all!

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<SMALL>Outside of the electronics realm, aren't the two types of instruments (pedals and pedal-less) basically the same? </SMALL>

I'm probably not the right person to answer this since I don't play pedal steel, but I'll offer my two cents anyway....
I believe a non-pedal steel has a more direct "in your face" type of sound because it is a much simpler instrument, construction wise. The strings are more in contact with the wood, like a regular guitar, while there's a lot more mechanics involved on a pedal steel.

I've also always believed non-pedal is the first choice for western swing? Cindy Cashdollar is a good example of a contemporary player who plays great western swing on non-pedal steel (8 years with "Asleep At The Wheel").
A D-8 will probably offer you everything you want, you can have one neck in C6 or A6 and the other in E13. I think this would pretty much cover both the Hawaiian and western swing styles.

But let's wait and see what the real authorities on these styles has to say...

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

<SMALL>But let's wait and see what the real authorities on these styles has to say...Steinar</SMALL>

First of all, Steiner disqualified me with his closing statement above, but I think I'll comment anyway.

Steiner made some good points and I appreciate his opinion and knowledge. Everything evolves however,including the steel guitar,and the best example I can think of is Buddy Emmons who does qualify as an authority. He can play western swing or Hawaiian style on non-pedal as well as any of the original icons, but yet some of his best work has been while using pedals. I believe innovations and improvements should be used when it expands the functionality of the original.

As it applies to the steel guitar, I would suggest using everything that has evolved, and that includes pedals. If a retro sound is desired at times, just avoid using the pedals, or better yet, just leave the pedal board in the case. They don't have to be used just because they are available.

www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 December 2004 at 04:12 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'm of the opinion that one can play any kind of music successfully on any instrument despite whatever traditions exist. That said, non-pedal instruments inherently have a different sound than pedal guitars and it's more complicated than just swapping pickups. I like the way John Ely put it when I interviewed him for my book:

"I think the reason why "straight steel" is that it's more accessible than pedal steel and to me, the instruments tend to have a more natural sound with more character due to the interaction between the body and the pickup.Pedal steels tend to have a more neutral pickup sound with not as much interaction from the body. this is because of the way the body is reinforced to accomodate the stresses of a pull system. Don't get me wrong, there are great sounding pedal steels out there, but to me, the Fender and Rickenbacker tone is just sweeter".

Another factor is that the moving tones offered by pedal steel can, generally speaking, sound "wrong" in Hawaiian music or Western Swing but there are always exceptions. Forumite Basil Henriques played superb Hawaiian sounds on a Fender 400. Buddy Emmons and Doug Jernigan - to name just two - have played killer WS on pedal guitars. Personally, I think you could get a ton of music out of a Georgeboard, a Stringmaster in these genres or maybe even the new all aluminum Double Dustpan that Rick Ailello must have on the drawing board If you want extended harmony options or the sounds of moving tones in your music than perhaps a pedal guitar is for you.

Pedal steels have the wrong string spacing for slants, which are an integral part of hawaiian playing. I personally like to play western swing with my pedal steels (both Bobby Black and I played pedal guitars when we played with Asleep at the Wheel). But I know that it's more common to use the non-pedal in western swing bands currently. Which is a little odd, considering that the western swing greats took up the pedal steel as soon as they could get them. For me, the ultimate western swing steel sound is a Bigsby, which is a pedal steel, albeit one that sounds a lot different from modern pedal guitars. But for Hawaiian, I can't see doing it on anything but a non-pedal guitar.

I play lap steel as well, mostly in blues, Sacred Steel, or rock and roll styles, and I can say categorically that I can't reproduce the sounds of my lap steels on pedal steel.

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www.tyack.com

I've heard great and authentic sounding swing and Hawaiian stuff played on pedal steel, no pedals. Sounded great. And then I heard it played on non-pedal steel and I realized "oh, yeah....". I have no theories but it sure seems that you there's a tone & timbre on, for instance, a Stringmaster or Dual Pro that you just can't find on a psg. I have no wish to haul two axes to two-bit gigs but it sometimes frustrates me that I can't make my psg sound like my stringmaster.

Without a doubt, a dedicated player could make a career of playing traditionally "non-pedaled" stuff on a pedal guitar, or playing very "pedally" on an un-pedaled guitar (Billy Robinson!)- perhaps forging a unique signature sound along the way. But there is a real difference in vibe or feel between the varieties. Moving to a non-pedal guitar after playing pedals simply leads you to feel, hear, and search for differences of expression. It does get tedious hauling several guitars to a gig. I do a lot of shows with both Pedal and dobro, and I'm missing the bands where I played a lot of non-pedal as well. I'm hoping to develop more totally non-pedal gigs to get my fix. I'm one of those who's just infatuated with all things slidey. Each kind (and brand!) of guitar brings it's own challenges and beauties. Gotta love steel!

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

The late Freeman Cowgar of Cougar Steel Guitars (sadly,no longer in business) made the best of both worlds. He made pedal steels with add on lap steels. He was also able to make a wider string spacing on his pedal steels.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by HowardR on 24 December 2004 at 10:53 AM.]</p></FONT>

I won't take issue with the advocates of the "purity" of non-pedal steel playing, but will only say that after playing non-pedal steels for about 20 years, I was excited about the enhancement of playing with pedals.

I felt the same about the technological advancement of "solid state" amplifiers that ended the continual maintenance stress of "tube amplifiers".

...but then, I'm just submitting an opinion that has no more validity than any other.

www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 December 2004 at 12:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

L.T. Zinn plays beautifully on both non pedal and pedal steels. His pedal steel is an MSA s-10.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 24 December 2004 at 01:17 PM.]</p></FONT>

GENTLEMEN! My sincere thanks to all for an "overwhelming" level of response! I can't thank each of you enough for your efforts, and for the many views you've shared with me and other forum members.

STEINAR: Some very succinct, "direct", meaningful answers to the questions I posed, and precisely the kind of feedback I'm after. A clear, unambiguous vote for the virtues of a non-pedal D8 to cover 99% of the potential Hawaiian/Swing applications out there. Thank you sir!

GENE (2X): Again, some great feedback. Sounds like you favor psg and solid state amps for doing things as good or better than the originals, and you're certainly not alone in those thoughts. I'm a "tube" guy myself, but I see and understand your points perfectly, and I thank you for sharing them.

ANDY, DAN, MARK & JON: Three (or more) solid, unequivocal votes for non-pedal technology of the vintage variety (i.e., Fender/Rick), and in practice, this view is largely upheld right here in Hawaii. Although they are not typically concerned with Swing or Country applications, a cursory survey of traditional Hawaiian steelers here on O'ahu's south shore (Waikiki) reveals a predominance of non-pedal instruments (Stringmasters favored), usually through one ort more miked tube amps (e.g., deluxe reverb, twin reverb, etc.).

HOWARD: My sincere thanks to you also for taking the time to share information on the Cougar Steel.

In closing, it was the "Western Swing" component alone that prompted me to pause and be cautious, but based on what I've seen in use here in Hawaii, and on what I'm learning from Forum experts like you guys, I've now got the confidence I needed to move forward. It'll probably take some serious searching, but D-8 Stringmaster Deluxe, here I come!!!! YAHTZEE!!!!!

So again, my deepest, warmest thanks to all, and Happy-Happy Holidays!

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<SMALL>without committing any grave errors or oversights</SMALL>

You would hardly have that concern if you were to obtain a D8 Stringmaster.

And you can certainly go to pedals after you've mastered that D8.

Good luck and enjoy your quest.

I wouldn't think that enough questions have been asked of YOU. yet....like.. what's your level of musical knowledge and can you already read guitar tab,
You say

<SMALL>I'm an intermediate-level guitarist, but beginning steel player with a keen interest in both traditional and contemporary Hawaiian Steel</SMALL>

That statement, to me at least, would indicate that for you the 3rd fret for instance, indicates "G", and that being so, C6 or A6 or any derivations of them would involve you in a learning curve that's unnecessary..
Think "E" tunings , OR PEDAL steel but NOT 10 string..8 string pedal steel has a better sounding string separation and is more like lap steel.
A pedal steel set up the right way can seem like a second home to you and allow you to think the chordal positions you are ALREADY familiar with..
Just my own thoughts, not set in stone, but I can guarantee practicality..
Listen to these... http://www.hsga.org/membersrecordings/BasilHenriques/MR_BasilHenriques.htm


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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by basilh on 25 December 2004 at 04:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

Just as an afterthought...when I was in Hawaii in November, Greg Sardinha at the Halekulani, House Without a Key played a Sho-Bud albeit non pedal, BUT it was a psg body...a twin 7/8 string
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by basilh on 25 December 2004 at 04:34 AM.]</p></FONT>

I played back up in the Hawaiian room at Scotty's show in St Louis the last two years.

There were non pedal players , Bill Robinson, Bobby Black, Ricky Davis, L.T Zinn, Chuck Lettes and several others,
and pedal players including Roy Ayers on his new Excell.

Plus I heard Basil in England this spring on his pedla steel,
a fellow on a reproduction Bigsbey, and, Scotty on his fryingpan too.

Each steeler and steel had it's own tone,
and I like them all. Why have more than one steel if they all sounded the same.

I heard hawaiian done on a great variaty of instruments,
and it's more your tuning and your tecnique that make it sound good as hawaiian music.

Just because you have pedals doesn't mean you need use moving tones.
I woud love to set up an PP S-10 for several lapsteel tunings rather than the ubiquitous E9.

Possibly like Al Marcus's chart of his tunings.

Dan's comment on string spacing might come into play,
but I see most of the PSG masters like Big E and Lloyd doing great bar slants too.

Aside from tone, content: listen to (for example) John Hughey playing western swing on any of his recent CDs- he is playing a lot of hardcore traditional WS repertoire, but on a modern pedal steel with all the trad as well as many "modern" changes (pdals/levers). He is playing chord solo stuff that would be impossible unless you had a 19 neck straight steel and superhuman reflexes.

If you need maximum flexibility for extended chords, you won't find them on a non-pedal. You can imply, with partial chords, lots of interesting harmonies, but to get into the Hughey zone? I don't think so...

This is NOT a putdown of non pedal, I play it and love it. You just need to be realistic as to what to expect harmonically.

Happy Christmas!!!!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 25 December 2004 at 06:55 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 25 December 2004 at 06:57 AM.]</p></FONT>

A Fender 1000?

Hope I'm not taking this off topic but;
How about putting a non-pedal C6th, either 8 or 10-string on a single neck with pad E9th pedal steel?

I started with the Fender and added the PSG about a year later.

Merry Xmas, and thanks guys, for all of the great comments! A tremendous amount of very meaningful information and insights . . .

HOWARD: I've developed a couple of leads on D8 Stringmasters and I'll likely pick one up at some point regardless, but your vote seems to be in clear favor of pedals, and you're not alone in that regard. In fact, if we look at the total number of responses to-date in both forum sections (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), its almost a dead split, which serves only to underscore (or validate) my concerns; in other words, its not a cut-n-dry/back-n-white type of question. But please see my related comments to others immediately below.

BASIL: Yes Basil, your comments in both sections have been duly noted (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and I sincerely thank you for your opinion(s). As for your questions of me . . . I have been playing guitar now for just over 36-years including conventionally tuned acoustic/electric steel- and nylon stringed instruments (i.e., classical and flamenco), and also some limited exposure to a pair of open-tuned '36 National Style 'O' resonators with both slide and fingerpicking techniques. And finally, yes, I CAN indeed read tablature.

But these are all excellent observations you've made, particularly the one discouraging use of a D10 instrument for Hawaiian applications. Of course, others occasionally disagree with that assessment (see David's cmments), and regrettably, that's where I was hoping to go if I were to purchase a psg (a D10 ShoBud).

Now, if I may, let me pose a question to you sir, . . . as a beginner to console steel, shouldn't I be concerned in small measure about the mechanical complexities of "pedal" based instruments? Most polished players would quickly respond "yes" to that question, especially when my access to qualified psg technicians might be limited (i.e., there are "few" psg gurus adrift out here to help me out if I get in a pinch)! I'd appreciate your views.

DAVID: Thanks for your comments in both sections (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and please, see my responses in both areas, but essentially, we're on the same wavelength with respect to configuring a non-pedal D8 (A6/E13). That's precisely what I've been envisioning, and configuring a psg the very same way, makes complete sense to me also. In fact, that's at the very heart of the issue (or quandary) as I see it, for two main reasons:

1) Basil's comments (above) seem to be strongly in favor of a psg, but not a D10, yet other than the "trick" D7/8 Sho-Bud of Greg Sardinha's that he's mentioned, I see little reference to any D8 Sho-Buds (or any other D8 psgs), anywhere. They're all D10/U12/Etc. Have I missed something? I'd love to pick up a D10 Sho-Bud pedal, and you've even mentioned a hypothetical desire to build "a PP S-10 for several lapsteel tunings rather than the ubiquitous E9" yourself, yet Basil's comments seem to imply that a D10 would be a poor choice. Any comments?

2) As an admittedly "beginning" player, numerous steelers (both professional and otherwise) have pointedly discouraged me from buying a psg, if for no other reason than the mechanical sophistication of these instruments. And quite frankly, I doubt that I'll have access to many qualified psg technicians out here in the Islands. Hence, if I go that route, I could end-up marooned with a white elephant that no one can adapt or adjust for me. Any thoughts? Again, I'd love to pick-up a D10 Sho-Bud pedal, but shouldn't I be a bit concerned on this score? Are there quality instructionals available out there for me on the mechanics of these instruments (e.g., levers, pedals, rods, etc.) to allow for self-teaching?

Anyway, thanks so much for some excellent observations and comments David - very good food for thought. I'm grateful.

JOHN: Loads of great comments about John Hughey, Western Swing and pedal instruments, but nothing mentioned there about "Hawaiian", and I'm afraid that needs to remain my primary focus. Thank you though, I appreciated your comments and the web-site reference.

John Hugey and Johnny Cox both played pedals with the Time Jumpers, and that is Western swing of the highest order.

Denny Turner is on Hawaii, and he knows lap and pedal steels,
so there is at least on cat hear you.
Do a forum search for his email.

I guess for me I am not locked into one idea of tone, I do own a Supro 6 lapsteel and love the tone,
but I also like my Pro-II Buds tone.
I would like a D-8 console too.

I am locked into the idea of the most power on the smallest lightest package WITH good tone.

I really like the PP sound, makes me think of a lap-steel in some ways. But I don't own one at this time.
If I did have a PP S-10, I might seriously think of redoing it as a multit tuning lapsteel similar to Tom Morrel has done, but with pedals instead of the locking levers on his.

It would be an intertesting comprimise and a unique sounding instrument.

As far as mechanics, well if you have any mechanical aptitude, the forum and net stuff could get you a long way to regulating your instrument..

I was a total beginner on PSG 2 years ago, but with decades on dobro and lapsteel.
I just realized that I REALLY wanted more power.

Sure a lapsteel is low maintainance, but less powerful too. I have a old Sho-Bud, I have no other tech here. One guy a 1/2 hour away who learned to do it himslef out of necessity, and Crowbear 4 hours west on a Zum and an different model of Sho-Bud.

But with the help of Rick Davis and Duane Marrs (plus others),
I have added 3 levers and tons of different pulls.
So even in isolation it's not impossible.

If you look under the hood long enough, while moving parts, watch thin things that happen and listen,
then ask questions on the forum, a general understanding of the technicai issues will arrive in a short time.
It's easir than a car in many ways.

Heck, I am SURE there are more PSG players on Hawaii than the south of France...

I am not saying go one way or the other,
maybe saying go BOTH ways, as budget allows...
I have feet on both camps...

A simple used S-10 of a non push pull type, that is known to be easy to change around, could be a good training ground for you.

And it gives you a place see what you want to do.
Some of the new marques are easier to work on than Buds, I got mine because the deal fell in my lap and it was a great deal.
I WAS looking for a Gibson console grand T8 at the time...
but got a D-10 and am glad I did.

Gettin a simple S-10 all pull that is easy to make changes too, and learn on it, and try out your various tuning ideas,
and then eventually move up and have a tech set up what you finally want would work also.

As far as being a beginnner, well you gotta start some where, if you're determined to do it, then just do it. and keep hacking at it till you're happy.

Don't worry if you don't sound like Big E and Sol Ho op i i in 2 years.
Just worry about sounding like you in 2 years.

There are many ways round the barn,
you can get advice about going left, right, through or over.
All will work.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 December 2004 at 04:06 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 December 2004 at 04:09 AM.]</p></FONT>

David Donald said

<SMALL>Plus I heard Basil in England this spring on his pedal steel,and a fellow on a reproduction Bigsby</SMALL>

Well the "Fellow" on the Bigsby was my friend B.J.Cole.....
Don't you think it says something about 8 string versus 10 string pedal steel,(For this purpose) when a player of his statute uses 8 , albeit for MOR swing,(the great American songbook style)..

And as for mechanical maintainance...I think it's best to learn a little, "Hands On".


Baz

Hi Basil,
Thanks for putting in B.J.'s name to my idea, I blanked on it last night..

I could see him, and those LOOOONG throws on the Bigsbey pedals, but the name I spaced on.

He was very very good, and a very different tone.

And Basil your set was like a cousre in Hawaiian music by a emninent muscologist., who could play it too.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 December 2004 at 06:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

Pedal Steel in Hawaii ...

In the "Immortal Words" of Lurch



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<font size=1> Aiello's House of Gauss</font>

<font size=1>
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield</font>

My friend Andy writes...

If you want sounds of moving tones in your music.

I have been moving tones before pedals, but moving them to the wrong places.