The Steel Guitar Forum

Is it just another name for a lap steel or is it an entirely different instrument? Is it a dobro? Someone ought to put together a glossary for newby's like me.

Bill, As I understand it a "slide" guitar is a guitar, resonator or not, acoustic, or electric, that is played in the standard,( Spanish) style, using a slide on the ring or little finger of the fretting hand. Musical styles include Blues, Rock, Country and whatever. Slides are mostly made of metal or glass. They can be simple tubes or bottle necks, hence the term, "bottle neck slide", or fancy flip around dohickies. Hope that helps...

Bill, "slide guitar" usually refers to a guitar being played in an upright ("Spanish-style") position with a slide on the player's pinkie or ring finger. The slide may be glass, metal or ceramic, and is generally used in addition to fretting with the other fingers.

Ron, I couldn't have said it much better myself!
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Russ Young on 11 July 2004 at 10:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

Okay. If I understand correctly it would not be a dobro or resonator in the popular sense of the word because it relies on bringing the string in contact with the fret board.

When you're using the slide, there is no (intentional) contact with the fret or fretboard. Just like when playing lap steel, the slide -- or the bar -- serves as a "moving fret." However, a slide player has the option of using their fingers on the frets in addition to the slide.

Lap steel,Dobro or generically,"resonator guitars" are NAMES of instruments. Slide guitar is a STYLE of playing a spanish guitar - usually(but not always)tuned to an open chord. Of course round neck resos are often set up w/fairly low action - spanish style and played with a slide and/or with fingers. -MJ-

<SMALL>"Slide" guitar. What's that?"</SMALL>

To some of us "STEEL" guitar players it is an insult!

This is because the name has spread sooo quickly that some are now calling what we play a "slide" guitar. I would advise strongly in the future, that whenever any one says that, they NOT be standing too close to a steel guitar player

Lest there be any doubt, there is NO semblance between a regular guitar player using a slide and a steel guitar player using a steel "BAR".

While it maybe that some might feel there is, I assure you there is not a "slide" guitarist that can come close to what a Jerry Byrd or Buddy Emmons, (plus countless others) can do with their bars.

I liken it to the difference between a real diamond and a zirconian. And a real diamond is no fake.

carl

Example of slide players might help clarify this. I guess the prime example is Duane Allman, but George Harrison and Eric Clapton were known to play slide from time to time. Then there are the old blues slide players like Robert Johnson, Elmore James, et al. A couple of players who might be considered slide players are Ben Harper and David Lindley. Although they both use lap steels, the sound is more akin to the slide guitar sound. Hope this helps.

I'm stunned, again. I have so much respect for Carl, and disagree with his opinion on this subject so much! I know that my friend Jerry Brightman also feels the same as Carl. I play pedal steel. lap steel and slide guitar I agree that there are a lot of lame slide players, but to deny the compelling beauty of a performance like Ry Cooder's version of "Dark is the Night, Cold is the Ground" , or the absolute fun of Bob Brozman's music is surprising.
Pedal steel and slide guitar are two very different animals. The only thing they really have in common is the similarity in the method of fretting. They both "slide" steel on the strings. They're generally used for very different types of music. Pedal steel is more country, swing, and jazz oriented. Slide is more of a blues and rock style, although a player like Robert Randolf sort of melds the two together. But I do think that the slide guitars entry into some country music has really ticked-off a lot of pedal guitar players! But, again, they're not for the same kind of music. Slide players don't play Byrd or Emmons music (although one of my favorite tunes to play on slide is "Night Life"). The tunings on slide guitar are kinda limited as to what you can do,bar slants, for instance, are pretty difficult to pull off.
If I'm doing a pedal guitar gig, and some one asks for me to "Play some more slide guitar!", but are actually referring to pedal steel, I'm not offended. I just chalk it up to their ignorance. It's not malicious. Going to a blues jam, and hearing player after player do the same, stock slide licks cuz they thinks it's cool, is very annoying. But to hear Cooder play "Available Space", is just too much fun! I feel that I'm lucky, because I enjoy so many types of music. Classic country, modern country, rock, blues, Peking opera music, etc., etc.,,,,I love it all. The only music that I can't stand is opera! But I can still appreciate the virtuosity of a Placido Domingo. But I'm ranting! Enough!
Carl, I still love you! Bless you.
John Billings

Ummm...I agree with John on this. Although slide guitar is generally rock or blues played with a finger slide on a roundneck, that style can be played on a pedal or lap steel with a bar. I do it both ways. I also remember seeing a popular country music video where someone had a tele turned over in his lap playing slide guitar licks with a bar. What do you call that? I don't put too fine a point on these terms. I'd rather have someone refer to my pedal steel playing as "slide guitar" than xylophone, keyboard and other things I have heard.

IMO

I believe that both John and David made my point precisely. The key is NOT whether the pedal steel guitarist can "emulate" the slide or the slide guitarist can "emulate" the steel guitarist. The key is simply that there is NO semblance between the too.

"A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."

But,

"A sandspur by any other name would still induce just as much pain!"

I liken this to the bending of the notes on a piano by a Floyd Cramer; or the bending of the strings by a guitarist to get that "pedal" lick. Or the late and great Phil Baugh who attached string stretchers to his lead guitar and got some sounds the way a pedal steel guitar gets them.

Incidently he sounded incredibly good on George Jones classic when Phil first used it on a recording. But it was NOT steel guitar none the less.

The key again, is the semblance to a steel bar in the hands of a steel guitarist and a slide in the hands of a guitarist. It is still slide guitar. It is still steel guitar and "never the twain should meet", IMO.

A bar in the hands of the masters like again Jerry Byrd or Buddy (and countless others) produces music NO slide guitarist will ever get. The bar in the left hands of those greats is unique. And in the case of Jerry, absolute. It is simply not slide guitar. It is steel guitar.

Further it is not confined to what genre' of music they play. Jerry Byrd's "LaCumparsita" is as far from country as a player could ever get.

So is Buddy's "Canon in D, by pacalbel". And yet it is still steel guitar. The bar in the hands of a Hal Rugg backing Lorretta Lynn cannot be done on a slide guitar. No matter how good the slide guitarist........

IF, we are talking about the "timbre" of music!

Finally, if ya like slide guitar and what they do, fine. But it is tantamount IMO and parcel to today's crop of "country" singers.

It "ain't Country".

George Jones is country. Garth brooks is a poor excuse for rock and roll. I stand on that proposed parallel, referencing the steel guitar with the "slide" guitar.

Respectfully always,

carl

Carl, I guess what bothered me was the obviousy vehement dislike you seem to show for slide guitar in the statement;
"I liken it to the difference between a real diamond and a zirconian. And a real diamond is no fake."
There's nothing "fake" about slide guitar. In the hands of a masterful player, it can be beautiful and enlightening, and great fun to listen to. They are almost completely different, 'cept for the fretting mechanism, and are used for completely different types of music. I actually thought of Buddy's version of Cannon in D while writing the above post,, but, generally, that's not the type of music played on the pedal steel. Sure, there are lots of exceptions to every musical rule, that's part of what makes great players interesting, their ability to transcend the norms.Lest you think I'm a complete leaker, there are three LPs sitting against my Stereo. Jerry's "HiFi Guitar", Buddy's Rainbow album, and Cooder's "Chicken Skin Music"(with Gabby Pahinui)
I don't feel that one instrument is a diamond, and the other is a fake. They're completely different. In the hands of masters, one may be a diamond and the other a ruby .
Best, JB

Oh, yeah. You got Garth, and almost all the new crowd right. They're not country, they're pop!

I try to draw a distinct line but its not easy. I play a squareneck in spanish position, with a solid slide over the top of the neck, not under like a bottleneck-guy (except Dave Hole). I play some slants. So I guess I'm a steel player, although I play more like the bottlneck guys in general. I don't let labels bother me. I used to have a Doubleneck Gibson SG 6/12 when touring in the 70s. People would come up and ask if it was a guitar I was playing and what were the 2 "things' for? I told them "yes its a guitar and its bisexual".

Be happy if the general public even notices its a guitar you play - and smile - you're a musician and they're not!

CF

Slide and lap steel guitar styles are very different. As a longtime slide player, and pretty much newbie on lap, I'm thinking about the differences, also about how one might influence the other.

Conclusions? Lap style is much harder, with tone and technique possibilities that would be difficult or impossible to match with a slide. It's much easier to play rhthym on regular slide, at least in the blues/r&b stuff I like so much.

Last, years of playing regular slide did little to inform my lap fumblings, except in terms of already knowing open D and G tunings. By contrast, struggling with steel has completely changed my slide playing. I now try to get the fuller sound and dynamics of steel playing on slide. I also rely much less on open strings, playing more on inside strings and on higher fret positions, and even do rudimentary slants with the slide (probably violating some kind of rule here...) My slide playing is now more vocal, less "standard lick" based. It's ironic. I'm still hacking wildly at the steel, while my slide playing improves steadily.

One of the reasons many people think slide guitar is easier than lap steel is the "anchoring" of the left hand while playing slide.

When playing slide, your left thumb on the back of the neck anchors your hand and makes for easier in-tune playing.

With steel your left hand approaches the strings from above. Your left hand is essentially floating in mid air with only the bar's contact with the strings acting as an anchor. Much harder to attack the notes in tune. Your left pinky and ring finger resting on the strings behind the bar act as an anchor somewhat but they are not as stabilizing as the left thumb in slide style.

Here's a 1981 recording of me playing slide on a 1931 National Duolian in D tuning. It's the old fiddle tune Angeline The Baker

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 14 July 2004 at 11:09 AM.]</p></FONT>

Ah, Gerald! You just put a big smile on my face! Thanks!

So cool, Gerald. Now was that ole time, bluegrass, country blues, or what? Being from North Mississippi I am always hopelessly confused on my genres.

I think I understand what Carl is saying, but I am also a little worried that he is slighting slide guitar greats. I find that steel guitar is more versatile and has more technical room. But slide guitar somehow provides more rhythm and raw emotion. It may be true there is no slide guitar player who ever played at the technical level of Jerry and Buddy. But neither has any steel guitar player ever bettered Elmore James or even the North Mississippi Allstars for gutbucket emotion and drive. That is also an important element of music. Because of that alone, I venture to say that more people have heard of Elmore James than have heard of Jerry and Buddy (not that popularity determines musical importance, but it does speak to something human).

David,

I can't tell you the genre, it's a mish mosh of everything I listened to up to that point in my life.

The tune was recorded with the "Lost World String Band" based out of Lansing, MI (and Elderly Instruments). I played with this band from around 1978 until 1992. We played the "Prairie Home Companion" show a few times in the 1980's.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

So working out of Elderly, did you get to use your choice of their massive stock of instruments? I just got the latest catalogue and it is already covered with drool.

I worked there from 1977 until 1981. At that time it was a much smaller operation than it is today. It was mostly an acoustic guitar store. We would get steel guitars in all the time for trades and we'd stick a ridiculously low price tag on them just to get them off the floor. I didn't play steel at the time

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

Oh my god, here we go again. It doesn´t matter which kind of musical style people talk about, they always have to rate players and styles. This one is better than that one, nobody can play as good as .....(put the name of your favourite player in here)and so on. Well, music is not about technical abilities or rules or certain tunings or special vintage guitars, it´s about emotion, feelings and an expression of life.
If you think, something is easier to do than something else, get on stage and do it! It´s very easy to stay in the back and say: This guy sucks. As a guy, who´s inspired by a lot of old music, from country to jazz, blues and surf I feel very limited and restricted by these kind of opinions. If everyone thinks like this, nothing new would ever happen (like in the classical music scene).
Do you want to hear people play like Jerry Byrd or do you want some personal style or expression?
I don´t have a problem to listen to Jerry Byrd, The Vanduras, The Sex Pistols, The White Stripes, The Runaways, Dick Dale, Slacktone, and The Rolling Stones on one day.
They´re all different, but I like them all and I´´m pretty happy about that....
Keep an open mind!
Oh, and of course I love Slide guitar as much as Steel or any other kind of guitar.
I gotta practice...

I've always thought of bottleneck slide playing and Hawaiian slide playing as half brothers and pedal steel as a distant cousin.

Both bottleneck and Hawaiian style came about from players trying to make a guitar sound more like a human voice, with the vibrato and sliding up or down into notes.
The bottleneck style was around before Hawaiian style, but about 80-90 years ago Hawaiian style became very popular.
The Hawaiian slide guitar eventually made its way into country music, and has been there ever since.
I don't know when they went from calling Hawaiian slide guitar to just calling it steel guitar. I'm sure it had something with musicians not wanting to be associated with one genre of music.

If you listen to some early recordings of bottleneck slide players you can hear how much influence they had on early country steel players.
In fact Leon McAuliffe playing Hawaiian slide on Bob Wills & The Texas Playboys recording of "Steel Guitar Rag" in the '30s is almost note for note the same as Sylvester Weaver's 1927 bottleneck slide recording of "Guitar Rag".
Even though early country steel players were influenced by bottleneck slide players today's pedal steel is completely a deferent animal. Trying to compare a bottleneck slide guitar to a pedal steel guitar is like comparing a sousaphone to a saxophone. They aren't the same instrument even though they both have "phone" in their name.

Like it was said above that Buddy Emmons can do things on pedal steel that bottleneck players can't do, but Sonny Landreth can do things on his guitar the Buddy Emmons can't do.

A few years ago I bought a little Hawaiian guitar with a raised nut, bar, and picks. It had someone's 1931 lesson schedule in the case along with an instruction book on "How to Play Hawaiian Slide Guitar".
So if they called it a "Slide Guitar" in 1931 then I don't see why folks get offended over someone calling it that 73 years latter.

The bottleneck style was around before Hawaiian style, but about 80-90 years ago Hawaiian style became very popular.

This statement is not true. The Hawaiian steel's origin can be traced back to 1885, when Joseph Kekuku "fooled around" with his guitar.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The bottleneck style was around before Hawaiian style, but about 80-90 years ago Hawaiian style became very popular.

This statement is not true. The Hawaiian steel's origin can be traced back to 1885, when Joseph Kekuku "fooled around" with his guitar.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what statement isn't true. That Hawaiian Music and Hawaiian style of playing became very popular in the USA just after the turn of last century or that in the mid 1800's African slaves played a single string instrument with a glass slide.

Alvin, I was referring to bottleneck style guitar vs. Hawaiian-style guitar. Yes, there are accounts of African one-stringed instruments being played with hard objects, etc., but that's not the same as bottleneck guitar. The earliest recording of Hawaiian guitar (I believe 1909) came well after Kekuku had initially played it.

But who knows?