The Steel Guitar Forum

Much has been said and written concerning tone over many years, yet to my knowledge the specific elements which comprise tone have yet to be collectively identified.

What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

2, Weight of the bar.

3. Mass of the bar.

4. Bar Alloy.

5. Diameter of the bar.

6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

2. Finger pick material.

3. Finger pick thickness.

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

Each element listed (and I’m sure more will be added) could be a topic of discussion while trying to analyze, evaluate and reach a general consensus.

I believe acquiring an overall mental perception of the many elements involved, provides the positive potential of change and rapid improvement.

"Most will agree tone begins with the hands"

Respectfully, some don't, me included. I don't disagree with your list of factors, but basic tonality is inherent in the instrument; the "hands" part manipulates that basic tonal platform, and some of those items are not so much "tone" as "style" - specifically attack-related items and speed of movement are not "tone" factors, they are stylistic ones IMO. 10 different players using one Ric 59 lap steel will sound different, but in all case will STILL sound like they are playing a Ric - not a Fender Champ or a Supro.

Jim, I think the implied statement is:

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the tone starts with the hands.

It isn't about whether two different guitars will sound the same, it's about why the same guitar will sound different, when played by different players.

Someone had posted a youtube segment a few month ago, where Junior Brown, Jimmy Vaughn, and Red Volkaert were taking turns on Jr's guitsteel, and without changing any setting, all sounded like they usually sound on their own guitar. Their tone was clearly in their hands.

I saw that, and they all sounded like themselves, but like themselves playing Junior's guitar - the fundamental tone didn't change. The "sound" does in a case like that- but it's the difference in attack, damping, and stylistic qualities that causes it - not tone.

Reece, very well codified list.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

This is one I hadn't been considering,
and realize I should have...
Even after seeing a player or two playing behind the bar.
Thank you!

Jim, if the list Reece gave us is NOT
all in consideration,
the inherant resonant and electrical properties can be decicively changed
by the players ineptitude. Or finese.

Instruments (+ amps, pedals, etc, in combination)
have a tambor of their own
BUT it is how you draw out that
possibilities of tone,
that is in consideration here.

You can get a very jazz like tone from a Tele,
IF your technique is right.
You can get some twang from a Les Paul
IF your technique is right.

i totally agree with you Reece. thats another reason you are in the hall of fame. lots of experience.

Jim, exactly my point. No one's saying a strat sounds like a tele.

Reese's point is (if I understand correctly): on a given guitar, what defines someone's tone, which is different from the tone someone else would get, playing the same guitar?

Why does Jay Dee sounds like Jay Dee on his emmons, while there's many other people playing similar guitars, but no one sounds quite like him?

Jim S....There's certainly nothing wrong with being in a minority.

I however respectfully disagree with you in that I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone which is wide ranging and acceptable to most.

I further believe, depending on the player, any specific instrument has the distinct possibility of becoming unidentifiable relative to the inherent basic tone fundamentals/characteristics, which can be attributed only to the hands.

David D....I appreciate you participating in this discussion and your comments.

Jimmie M....Thank you for your "vote" of confidence.

Stephan F....You are exactly right, and your statement is also right on target.

Are LH #2 and #3 related to the distinction between mass and density of the bar? The distinction between weight and mass is that weight is the force generated by gravity on a given mass, while mass is an intrinsic property. Under the same gravitational force, two bars of the same mass have the same weight. In contrast, density is mass per unit volume. I imagine that a small bar with high density would sound different {edit - than} a large bar of the same mass but lower density.

I think these are all essential issues to anybody seriously interested in developing "tone". He said "Most will agree tone begins with the hands, ..." Of course, there are other factors, but I think it's hard to argue with this statement.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 19 November 2006 at 11:05 AM.]</p></FONT>

Definitely agree with Reece...BUT...there's
been several times I've heard players with
great technique & playing style, yet because
their amp was set either to "bright" (where it
actually hurt to listen)...or so "dull" that
left you uninterested after awhile. So, take
all of Reece's suggestions and add in a few additional factors. Sometimes it's good to
have someone out front to let you know how
you sound from a different vantage point.
-------------------

I thoroughly with Jim Sliff on this one. I think that tone is most inherent in the brand of guitar and amp than it is in the hands. I do agree that bars, srings, wires,and technique contribute. Some manufacturer's try to say that their guitars sound like an Emmons push/pull. I never heard it and I have heard all the modern guitars played by master players. I did hear Al Brisco make a Carter sound like a Fender 400 though and that shocked me. Still it was not exact but close enough where most steelers couldn't tell the difference. If you listen to the Northern Steel Guitar album you can here the tonal difference in the different brands of steel guitars and their signature tones. If you put an Emmons P/P/, a Fender 400, and a Sho-Bud into the same amp and blind fold me I'll bet I can pick each one near every time. They are all great guitars.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 November 2006 at 11:49 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 November 2006 at 11:52 AM.]</p></FONT>

Reece

Its interesting how the mechanics of tone & technique are accomplished , But I think there is
one very important aspect to your discussion ! Thats ,
the player him/her self and how they perceive music
in general . If i could play and sound like you ! I would
have to hear the music like you do , & in my case !
I don't think that is posable - With every thing the same - as you listed - I would never sound like you .

Just a thought ! but this is were the rubber meets the road - IMO ! I admire players who can emulate .

Hick

Edited to remove opinion<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ken Byng on 21 November 2006 at 05:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

Dave M....Great oservation and insight. One of your comments raises a question worth consideration: "If one is using a lighter bar, yet applies like downward pressure to achieve the same weight as a heavier bar, does the abscence of mass make a difference relative to tone"?

There's no doubt other factors come into play, however I believe identifying the basic elements of tone such as we are discussing can change all other related factors which may be introduced.

Jay G....I believe the amp settings can effect the hands, and sub-consciously force the hands of the player to seek the desired tone.

I have experimented many times by continuing to play when my amp settings were not conducive to the sound I wanted. After a short while the tone "gap" was closed significantly because of inate hand adjustments.

I agree with Reece AND Jim... let me qualify however.... If I played a simple 3 note lick on anyone else's instrument and touched NO settings.. and then he played it exactly as I did,the sounds might be indistinguishable from one another.. The BASIC tonality is the same... This seems to be Jims point and I agree with it...

However, if the player layed down a steel [or guitar] track with 4 other musicians, and then I used the EXACT same gear with the same settings,with the same musicians on the same song,and then I recorded a track,using the same licks and fills, you WOULD hear a tonal difference over the course of the song because of the many observations Reece conveyed... I also saw heard the video in question and the various players DID sound different, but the basic instrument tonality remained intact...

Here's an interesting personal side note... I had a Fender 400 I got rid of because I didn't like its playability, and my Carter sounded very similar... I bought a Willy Keyless with a firebreathing 19.5 K pickup... Other steel players told me "it sounded like an old ZB or Fender'... I now have an old Bud that sounds like my Fender, Willy,and Carter did before them....Thats because its the same guy is playing them...

Yes Reece is correct, but Jims viewpoint IS valid... We all have a sound in our head, and our instruments WILL produce that sound despite the fact that by design they really should only have a limited number of voices.. it is our head hands and heart that alter the BASIC tonal limitations Jim speaks of.... bob

"I however respectfully disagree with you in that I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone which is wide ranging and acceptable to most."

Reece, I never said that...nothing remotely CLOSE to that.

So I'll just make that comment and stick with what I DID say, which was pretty clear, I think.

edited for content<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 04 December 2006 at 09:12 AM.]</p></FONT>

Very well said Reese my friend. You are a Master Player and Builder. Which is very rare IMO. I was going to add a little more here, but its better sometimes to listen than speak. But there are some good points of view here. By most of the responces anyway.

Thanks Reese.

Again, I think people are talking apple and oranges.

We could have a discussion about gear, it's valid, and of course is a major part of how people sound. I think that's where Jim and Kevin H are going.

But the original post was about one's technique, touch, whatever you wanna call it, which -- all gear consideration aside -- makes each player's voice unique.

These are two completely unrelated -- yet indispensible -- elements of tone.

That being said, a good player will get a "good enough" tone out of anything, while a less player can make the best gear in the world sound grating...

If tone is all in the hands, then why is alomst every builder out there trying to reproduce the "tone" of an Emmons push-pull? And why do most of us agree that a good push-pull is STILL the tonal yardstick for all pedal steel guitars.
That being said, however, if you ain't got it in your head, it ain't gonna get to your hands. And if you ain't got it in your hands, then it ain't gonna come out the amp!
There's one well-known player, who has licks for days, has a couple of instructional videos out, whose tone is TERRIBLE, to my ears.
Y'know, I bet we could turn this into a tuning thread without much trouble . Except I don't know if Sliff can tune up, either !<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 19 November 2006 at 02:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

OK, let me put it this way. It doesn't happen in your hands or in your guitar.

Tone is something that happens BETWEEN your hands and your guitar.

Specific guitar + Specific hands = specific tone.

This thread is about the hands part.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 19 November 2006 at 01:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

if the tone is in the guitar than I guess,if I buy Buddy`s guitar I should sound like Buddy Emmons,right???That`s why Emmons company sold so many guitars,people think they can have Buddy`s tone for few thousand bucks.Not.
Your tone is in your hands,heart and brain,you can put me behind Buddys blade and I guarantee you I wont sound nothing like him.

Db

ps

maybe if I buy LDG it will make me have a monster Lloyd tone??

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

I think that whatever mechanical limitations are presented to a person that is a guitar player are impediments through which God as we understand him/her/it works through us.

It's nice that these thoughts are catalogued for future reference, and that beginning players can be shown that there are different ways of getting different sounds out of a guitar. It should be a "no brainer".

The best way to get the best sound out of 'em is to PLAY one.

Also not to be too confused by things that stand in the way. Like getting too involved in complex explanations or arguments over intangibles and getting sucked into personality cults of the lukewarm.

I dunno. A lot of things are becoming clearer apon revisiting my long neglected 6 string studies.

I made a lot of mistakes becoming a 'steel player'. Mainly not "playing dangerously", and taking too many peoples' suggestions for things that I should have done for myself.

I don't have the time to do it on 6 string. For better or worse.

I found a guitar I liked, tuned it and I'm PLAYING it live and in public every chance I get.

I suppose there are all those "tone variables", but I think I'd better be the only one that decides what I do for me.

I know how it will work out at this point.



EJL

Bob C....My point is that the hands do make a difference in the sound regardless of which guitar is being played.

My motivation for this thread was to explore and solicit different ideas concerning the dynamics of each element relative to the hands only.

Jim S....I'll stick with my response to you and respectfully submit it was indeed clear.

Fred S....Thank you for your input and comment concerning the show I played in Dallas years ago.

Stephan F....You are of course right in that comparing apples and oranges is not relative to my original intent of discussing only the elements of the hands.

We can all agree there are more dynamics relative to tone than the hands, however other things are not relavent to my original comment.

Stephen F....Thank you for your comment that "this thread is about the hands"!

Reece - If you want to stick by your guns and continue to disagree with something I didn't say, be my guest, although I don't understand your reasoning for doing so.

But I can't respond to comments about something that doesn't exist.