Counting off songs

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 7 Nov 2006 11:07 am

After all these years Iam still and confused about how to count a song off when Iam doing a steel intro.Can anyone explain it in simple laymans terms ?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Nov 2006 11:12 am

Wade, we had a thread about this not too long ago. Here it is: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/003872.html

Of course, if you still have more questions, fire away!

Cheers,
Jimbeaux

p.s. Curiously, the person who started that thread was also named, "Wade" !![This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 07 November 2006 at 11:14 AM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 7 Nov 2006 11:41 am

This must be the "mother" of unwritten rules of music.

I went back and read that thread-a lot of opinions on there-some of them even good!

No one has ever been able to give me a concrete explanation-along the lines of someone explaining to you in a defintive manner some aspect of music theory.

------------------
Mark

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 7 Nov 2006 11:48 am

I wish Tom Morrell was on the forum. That guy counts off everything no matter what.

Chuck Cusimano · Post by **Chuck Cusimano** » 7 Nov 2006 12:21 pm

Wade, I'd rather give you my method in person.
It gets real complicated. You need to know whether a song has pick-up notes or not, and inform the other musicians if you're going to count "LONG", or "Short". Come see us!

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 7 Nov 2006 12:22 pm

Hey Wade, have EMS ready when you try a 3/4 time tune next time.

------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 7 Nov 2006 12:32 pm

Don't like to surprise the band, so I keep it very clear. Even though it does make for a lot of talking.

"I'll give you four and one...."
"1, 2, 3, 4, 1, (clam), (clam), (clam)"

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Nov 2006 12:42 pm

I like to communicate which beat to come in on (whether it's the downbeat or pickups) by stating that beat first in the countoff. So if you come in on beat #2 (i.e., with 3 pickup beats), I'd count: '2-3-4-1' (with an extra verbal emphasis on the '1'

If we come in on beat 3 (i.e., 2 pickup beats), I'd count: '3-4-1-2'

If there are no pickups and you come in on the downbeat, it's simple but follows the same rule: '1-2-3-4'

Works for me and my band. Your band must understand the system in advance, of course.
jc

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 7 Nov 2006 1:07 pm

Okie Dokie Chuckie,we definitly need to get together and go over some of these things.

It just seems like everyone has a different method.
My problem is figuring out what to tell the guys we're coming in on,if Iam doing the intro.Can someone explain what exactly are we looking for or should I say listening for in a song to be able to kick it off.
Example:
Ray Price's version of "Dont you ever get tired of hurting me"
I know what key its in ,I know there's 2 pick up notes and I believe its a 2/4 shuffle,so know what ??
What am I trying to hear or feel so that I cant translate it to numbers and yell it out.
I often thought about taking some lessons from a sho' nuff drummer, maybe he could make me understand from their (Drummers) point of view and not think like a steel player.
The theory part of this business has kicked my tail so far,I would really like to learn some of these things,I can play the steel very well and I know my chords and I know some pretty neat licks and learning more,Iam definitly a student of the game, but some of this theory stuff is just hard to learn on your own, without some professional help.I need direction.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Nov 2006 1:17 pm

Not to go around quoting myself, but:

If we come in on beat 3 (i.e., 2 pickup beats), I'd count: '3-4-1-2'

You're right though, everybody has a different system. Just pick one and make sure everyone in your band knows what system you're using.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Nov 2006 1:39 pm

That must be right, Jimbeaux!

(It's the way I would do it

)

Mike Auldridge · Post by **Mike Auldridge** » 7 Nov 2006 1:47 pm

Tucker's... "I'll give you four and one...."
"1, 2, 3, 4, 1, (clam), (clam), (clam)"

...is one of the funniest things I've ever read on the forum. The visual keeps playing in my head... thanks for a great laugh!

Mike

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 7 Nov 2006 1:53 pm

'course you could agree to just play 4/4 shuffles and let the zip-zip fiddle start you off

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 7 Nov 2006 10:02 pm

Everything starts on 1. If the count is 1-2-3-4 no pickup notes. 1-2-3-4-1 3 pickup notes. 3-4-1-2 2 pickup notes. 1-2-3 1 pickup note. 3/4 time : 123,123 = no pickup notes. 12312=1 pickup note. You should count at the same tempo as the tempo of the song. Jody.[This message was edited by Jody Sanders on 07 November 2006 at 10:03 PM.]

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 8 Nov 2006 10:53 am

I'd never counted anything off in my life. Then I started to doing a couple of steel shows and thought it would probably be a good idea. Now I can't stop. With rare exception, everything I have the intro on is counted off by me or someone else.
I'd agree with Jody on the method. The only exceptions might be on a 3/4 time I would count 123, 223 with no pickup notes, and 123, 22 with the intro note(s) having a value of the length of one count. Not saying this is right, just the way that most of the folks that I've picked with did it.

Ken

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 8 Nov 2006 11:59 am

Jody has it right,,,,assuming the measure has 4 beats,,,the lead can use 4,,3,,,2,,,1,,or no pick ups,,,,but the band starts on 1 of the first full measure,,,1,2,(clam), (clam), START,,,(1511, 5511, 4511,,,whatever,,,(the late, great Gary Hogue clarified this for me,,,he was a great count off guy,,,he counted,,then jumped in with all 4 feet,,,LOL)[This message was edited by Sonny Jenkins on 08 November 2006 at 12:04 PM.][This message was edited by Sonny Jenkins on 08 November 2006 at 12:07 PM.]

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 8 Nov 2006 12:35 pm

Huh ??????????????

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 8 Nov 2006 2:07 pm

Sorry Buck,,(LOL),,,If I'm playing bass,,the steel player tells us "1511 intro with 2 pick ups",,I hear him say 1,,2,,(the steel hits 2 beats, which is 3 and 4),,then me and the rest of the band do 4 beats on the 1 chord,,4 beats on the 5 chord,, 4 beats on the 1 chord,,4 beats on the 1 chord and at the 1st beat of the next measure the singer comes in,,, (hopefully,,,LOL)[This message was edited by Sonny Jenkins on 08 November 2006 at 02:11 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Nov 2006 2:14 pm

Four pickup notes is the same as NO PICKUP NOTES

This is not rocket science. It is communication, a skill that musicians are often a bit short on.

I usually count a full measure before any pickups just to set the tempo and then either start on the downbeat (no pickups) or count until the pickups start
3 pickups: 1-2-3-4-1
2 pickups: 1-2-3-4-1-2
1 pickup: 1-2-3-4-1-2-3

For standard tunes, it's pretty easy but when you're doing something the band isn't familiar with it's not a bad idea to subtly let them know how the intro goes -- I've seen/heard John Hughey count and hum the first few notes for the band just to be sure they are on the same page. At shows most players provide charts which may or may not specify how it will be counted off.

You can't communicate TOO CLEARLY.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 November 2006 at 02:18 PM.]

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 9 Nov 2006 9:10 am

The drummer in a band that I've been playing some gigs with over that past couple of years does all the count offs. Unfortuneatly, he thinks of the count off as the same as a starters' pistol for a race. I can't convince him that the count is also to set the tempo for the tune. Every song that they play is always an adventure as to what the tempo is actually going to be in relation to the count off. Then again, this is one of those bands that changes tempo every 8 bars or so!

------------------
Sho-Bud LDG, Gretsch Syncromatic Lap Steel, Bach Stradivarious 37 Trumpet, Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn, Fender Precision Bass (pre-CBS)

[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 09 November 2006 at 09:11 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 9 Nov 2006 9:23 am

" Every song that they play is always an adventure as to what the tempo is actually going to be

This is so true. In my years of playing with diverse bands, it has always been an adventure to identify their method of "counting off", and what they intend to do!

------------------
<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/index.1.jpg>www.genejones.com

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 9 Nov 2006 10:07 am

Q:Why does the line dance teacher count off his dances with a "Five-Six-Seven-Eight"?

A:Because he can't lisp "One-Two-Three-Four".

sorry I couldn't resist...

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 9 Nov 2006 3:04 pm

On the chart, we have the BPM and "4 plus 2".
Meaning there are 2 pickup notes.

Most of the time I get a HUHHH???? Happens every week with the same drummer.

A little off-topic, but have you seen the gizmo that thumps the drummers throne with the desired BPM? Very effective. Pros like it, amateurs don't need any help!

hope this helps.

Ron

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 9 Nov 2006 10:04 pm

1,2,Go, Now!!!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 Nov 2006 10:49 pm

We count off very few actually.
Rick or Roland, and occasionally I, just start
and we guess the tune on the fly.
But in general we all pick logical places to come in.

This is throwback to Mit, the Thai drummer,
who NEVER knew ANY of the song names,
but always knew the guitar chord pattern or lead intro lick.

I do like Jimbeaux's method.
In most jazz gigs, it's
say on 3 or on 4,
click the grooze quietly,
and then count, usually from 1,
but occasionally from a measure before.