The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm a 66 year old COUNTRY picker and when i see someone referring to country/rock i don't quite know what the h%%% they are talking about. Country/Rock is an oxymoron. It is either country or rock. Know i'll get flamed for this but never having been a rock enthusiast, don't like to hear it called country/rock. Flame on.

Probably call it that so the rockers won't have to keep explaining why that have a steel guitar or fiddle in there group? who knows.

Ernie http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Without flames....

Check out the book "Desperados" by John Einarson. It gives a thorough and fascinating history of the development of what became known as "country rock"; from the Byrds and Buffalo Springfield to the Flying Burrito Brothers, Poco...and even the Eagles.

It's really just a melting pot of traditional country with R&B and blues-rock influences. And it DOESN'T mean (in the usual use of the term) the rocked-out modern country, which sounds more like 70's pop music to me.

I would suggest the Byrds "Sweetheart of the Rodea" (more country than most in the genre), the Burrito's "Sin City", and Poco's "Pickin' up the Pieces" - those were some of the most notable trend setters. You might find some of it pretty palatable, actually.

Nowdays the terms encompasses rockabilly abd other influences....but the development of "Country Rock" was with a few exceptions a west coast thing of the late 60's/early 70's.

I hope that helps explain it, if a bit overly brief in content. But that book and a few recordings are a good intro into what it means, and probably won't make you mad.

Besides - it's just music. The labels are irrelevant. You either like the "music" or you don't, regardless of genre. Example - I don't particularly like "country". But I love Emmylou Harris. Is she country rock or country? some call her one of the queens of country, and her start was with Gram Parsons and the Burritos.

What I'm basically saying is, don't wory aboutit. I understand the frustration wiuth the term...but get past that and you might find some good music. O maybe not, but that's OK too.

Hope that helps a bit.

Jim Sliff, purveyor of "country rock" since 1970.

thurlon

You & I are in the same age bracket !
I was wondering why they call it - Country !

I guess if you put on a western cut hat and
some raged cloths it becomes Country rock .

It Looks more like Country Hobo !

Hick

if there is a humbucker on stage and no PSG then it aint country.

I am a first wave country fan.

This has been said before,but I'll say it again...

Country + Rock = a "Crock"!!

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©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.</pre></font>

I hope you guys took the time to read Jim Sliff's informative and measured response.

Well put, Jim!

RR

Conway and Jerry Lee were rock and roll and then went country. Johnny B Goode was a hot rock song, then all of a sudden, Buck Owens was doing it. Just a few examples that come to mind. Was this where it started....the mergence of the two?

Smiley,
So what would Country + Rap be ? ? ?

I think that Jim Sliff's excellent post and the posts that followed it are ample proof that when someone's got their mind made up and put on the blinders to anything else, it doesn't matter what anyone else says; what reason, evidence or proof of their point of view... Nothing is going to change the mind of anyone who's really got their mind made-up and wants to believe just what they want to believe. Nice try anyway, Jim. I have several good points myself, but I'm not going to bother.

<SMALL>It is either country or rock.</SMALL>

No flames, but no - it isn't. These are just labels, to help marketeers sell records to people they think will identify with a label. They probably felt that they had to ameliorate the "stigma" associated with "country" to get young urban audiences to listen to it. In fact, it's all just music - there's good and bad in all styles, including country, rock, and country-rock.

Jim Sliff has already answered the question well. Try listening to some of his suggested records and especially Emmylou Harris.

To me, the good stuff is much closer to the west coast country sound than any rock influence, but the music is notable for heavy use of bluegrass-influenced high harmonies, and acoustic music in general. To me, this is much more "country" than much of the "countrypolitan" stuff coming out of Nashville around this time. The "rock" influence is more in the way of the west coast folk rock scene, which is my view of where this really came from. The early Eagles were probably the most mainstream country rock band. IMO, the tangible signal of the death of mainstream country rock happened when Bernie Leadon left the Eagles and Joe Walsh came in with his Les Paul Standard. I still think it's good music, but it became mainstream rock. To my ears, that approach is much closer to what is considered "modern country" now.

I think most people, including me, consider Emmylou Harris country rock. To me, she represents everything that is good about the style - great singing in a traditional country manner with lots of high harmony, acoustic instruments blended in with electric instruments including pedal steel, some great instrumental virtuosity mixed in, tons of great traditional country songs mixed in with more contemporary songs in the same vein. People like Ricky Skaggs and Rodney Crowell first came into mainstream prominence in her band. I don't get the hostility to this style - it's not a crock to me.

Jim,your right about this contemporary so-called country being similar to 70's rock,It's just a very POOR attempt at best,NONE of this &%$# today is even CLOSE compared to say The Eagles.What gets me upset more than the term [country rock]is labelling this garbage today as country.

Thurlon, Bob, Randy and Smiley. I think you guys are confusing modern rock-country with '70s country-rock. They are very different. Country-rock was strongly country influenced music, often with steel, fiddles, and even banjos, made by young rock musicians in the late '60s and '70s. It started with the groups Jim mentions, and included some big pop hits by the Eagles, Linda Ronstadt, and even Jimmy Buffet. Some of it was very country (Emmy Lou Harris), and some was more rock, but in a sort of Buck Owens way. Creedence Clearwater Revival even had a big hit with Buck's song, Out My Back Door. The Band, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, and many big rock groups were influenced by country-rock. And some groups, like the Nitty-Gritty Dirt Band spun off into bluegrass and traditional acoustic country. They did a great double album called Will the Circle Be Unbroken, with Roy Acuff, the Carters, Doc Watson and many top country and bluegrass stars from the opry that any country fan would love.

What you guys seem to hate is modern rock-country. This is rock music played by country musicians (i.e., Southern accents, cowboy hats and boots) on country labels and radio stations.

Then there is alt-country, which had it's heyday in the '90s. Some of it is punk and alternative influenced. But some of it is just very raw, uncommercial country that you might like. That sort of merged with the rockabilly and swing retro stuff. Some would put the Deraillers, BR469 (?? can never remember that exact number), and Big Sandy in that genre. A lot of their stuff is very classic country, rockabilly and Western swing that you would probably like.

The different eras, genres and labels may seem confusing. But you will miss some really good stuff if you dismiss all of it as the same. It isn't.

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<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Is western swing an oxymoron then?

"It's either western or it's swing."

I guess if you put on a western cut hat, boots and a bolo tie it becomes western swing.

It Looks more like Hillbilly swing !

if there is a steel on stage and no saxaphone then it aint swing

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not as old and full of wisdom as some of you.

Good one, Jay!

<SMALL>Creedence Clearwater Revival even had a big hit with Buck's song, Out My Back Door. </SMALL>

Huh? Nice post and I think you're probably right about some confusion between modern rock-country and old country-rock, but Lookin' Out My Back Door was written by John C. Fogarty.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 August 2006 at 07:47 AM.]</p></FONT>

A lot of country rock came from artists who wanted to be country but couldn't sing good enough to get a country recording contract or if they got one, get played on country radio of that day or even today. A prime example (although he's one of my favorites) is Gram Parsons! I love his music but anyone who thinks Gram could have gone to Nashville back then or anytime since and got a recording contract is nuts! He had a style by a whiney sounding voice. Some of the best country recordings I've ever heard were on (country)rock records such as "She's a Barmaid in That Honky Tonk Downstairs" by Poco. That's one of the purest country recordings I've ever heard. Another non-singer who couldn't make it in country is Roger McGuinn of the Byrds. He did a lot of country things in the later Byrds records such as "You're Still on my Mind", "Close up the Honky Tonks", & "Sing Me Back Home", etc. but none of those would ever make it on the country play list, however there was something about Roger's voice that was captivating! Whatever it was that I liked about Roger or Gram, I can't explain, I just thought it was great stuff. Of the Byrds, Chris Hillman did however go on to some country success with the Desert Rose Band who are (were) one of my alltime favorites. I think one thing that really turned me on to country rock was the Telecaster sound along with the different pedal steel sound of the west coast players. A Tele with a B-Bender, a Fender or a ZB pedal steel? What could be better.........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

"What you guys seem to hate is modern rock-country. This is rock music played by country musicians..."

David, you've got a point.....which reminds me that original country-rock was just the opposite. It was country music played by rock musicians. Players that were known to play pop-rock were switching over to country-type sounds. Take the Byrds, for example. They were previously known for mainstream folk-rock, but did a 180-degree turn with "Sweetheart". Granted, they had to get Lloyd and Clarence to really put the twang in there, but it was nonetheless a shift for the Byrds as a group. This led to the term country-rock, because of the genre shift within the group. No one before the Byrds shifted genres so radically under the same name. IMO, that was the first mainstream full-on country-rock album. It was poorly received, but it pioneered the genre for others to come. It took the sting out of everybody else's efforts. It got the shock out of the way.

What Jim Sliff, Jim Phelps and Dave Mudgett said. And right...why bother.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mike Winter on 09 August 2006 at 09:13 AM.]</p></FONT>

*<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 11 August 2006 at 09:40 AM.]</p></FONT>

Jim P., I think you're right. Maybe I got it backwards. Am I remembering Buck doing a cover of Fogerty's song? Or am I just remembering the line "List'nin' to Buck Owens"? A lot of things are cloudy to me from back in those years.

Speaking of country-rock firsts, what about Ringo Star's version of "They're Gonna Put Me in the Movies"? Now that was a Buck Owens' song, wasn't it?

<SMALL>"Speaking of country-rock firsts, what about Ringo Star's version of "They're Gonna Put Me in the Movies"? Now that was a Buck Owens' song, wasn't it?"</SMALL>

Indeed, but it makes me sad that the Beatles chose one of the few Buck Owens hits without pedal steel! Just think what it would have done for the instrument if the Beatles had hired a nashville steel player for that record! (I guess we should just be glad they didn't have George imitating steel on the sitar )
Dan


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Dan Beller-McKenna
Big Red
Durham, NH

Well that shows how dumb I am,,,I thought it was just another way for Nashville to skim a buck,,,,(they would call Beverly Sills country if it would make'em a buck)

If you haven't heard "Sweetheart of the Rodeo, go here (Amazon), scroll down a bit and listen to the samples! http://tinyurl.com/hk6e4

<SMALL>what about Ringo Star's version of "They're Gonna Put Me in the Movies"? Now that was a Buck Owens' song, wasn't it?</SMALL>

"Act Naturally", yeah Buck had the big hit on it but Buck didn't write that one, contrary to popular belief.... Voni Morrison and John Russell wrote it. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 August 2006 at 01:00 PM.]</p></FONT>