The Steel Guitar Forum

Some of you have heard my laments about steel studio sessions in my region...

Here is a PERFECT example of what I have been complaining about for YEARS.. Super talented vocalists and a nice song that BEGS for some real pedal steel work...
Yes I got the session, yes I was payed, and yes my steel work was gutted, emasculated, and buried.. No pedal movement allowed, and only producer approved psuedo licks with NO single notes and maybe a palm harmic or two as long as they don't havetoo much chime.. .. NO real pedal steel transitional fills permitted..
THAT is the job of synthesized horns and a slightly overbearing electric guitar...

Mid song I get an almost complete traditional E9 chord fill and it is promptly BURIED by the synthesized horns..Don't get me wrong .. I was proud to play steel with these gorgeous girls and thier lovely voices, but I think this particular song WANTED steel.. not digital horns burying my Carter steel/Fender amp sound.... THIS is the longtime Ithaca mindset for some reason.. GET a steel on the tune and BURY it as quickly as possible..
give a listen and blast me if I am wrong bob http://www.myspace.com/five2 <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 24 June 2006 at 05:09 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 24 June 2006 at 05:17 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 26 June 2006 at 06:31 AM.]</p></FONT>

I listened to the song bob, and to be honest with ya, I didn't hear one steel lick. All I heard were piano, horns, bass and maybe some kind of guitar [could've been synthesized, even] and of course the vocals out front.

I thought the overall production was either too busy in spots [ala dixieland] or as sparse as the moon. Actually their voices stood out better in the sparse moments. Pretty good song, though.

They buried you all right; and yeah, the song would have sounded better [or more country anyway] if the steel was there.

JMHO - Chipper<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 24 June 2006 at 05:36 AM.]</p></FONT>

Sweet End.
Nice intro.

Clean minimalist production.
You sound just right on the bridge.
A less bottomy sound would have cut through
a bit more and not overpowered the vocals.
A more PP sound.

This might be why you weren't mixed hotter.

Those horns ARE the pits.

I heard Next Stop and it sounded great.
Really on the money for the song's style.
But 8 measures of C6 would have been cool in it.

They should have split the solos with you.
Or doubled you up with the guitar, He didn't carry it alone for sure.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 June 2006 at 07:20 AM.]</p></FONT>

The tune sounds pretty good to me and your work sounds fine on it. I don't know what you are complaining about. The steel is a part of the verse and then to build the chorus up they add something new. This is normal and makes musical sense. To have the steel louder than it is in the verse and then more steel in the chorus would sound goofy. Wanting to compete with a delicate 3 part harmony with volume and bends would not work anyway. You say there were no pedal bends in your playing but you squeezed the A pedal on every pad I heard. You also played some nice glisses into the transitions. It worked fine for the tune and sounded good.
Why the anger and frustration ? Why not just enjoy a job well done ?

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

I listened to "Sweet End" and it's fine as well. I can hear you on this one Bob. Very nice.

Went backed and listened again to "Next Stop" and cranked my system and did hear the steel now. Still pretty buried, but good playing altogether.

And yeah, what's the beef? At least your playing out, whether recording or performance-wise. Count your lucky stars, brother.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 24 June 2006 at 08:54 AM.]</p></FONT>

there's steel on that song?
a nice solo woulda really set that song off and made it more interesting. too bad for them. that break is a mess, nothing stands out....less is more producer dude. I'd rather hear three instruments clearly than thirty all muddled together in a mess.

I dont think your problem is particular to Ithaca, but having lived in upstate NY for a bit, I didnt really dig their mindset much..too uptight for my bohemian ways Bob shouldnt you move out to the west coast? start giving lessons? to me? hehe.......we'd never bury you in the mix, the girls are hot, every yard has a lemon tree, and the streets are paved with gold!!!!

EDIT: ok, I listened to the wrong song,. now i hear some steel, sounds good. I still think bob should move out here tho and live in my garage while giving me lessons. i got a cot, a black and white tv, a small fridge in there...pretty tempting offer eh? think it over...dont rush to a decision.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 24 June 2006 at 08:58 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 24 June 2006 at 09:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bob H.. kind of an interesting reponse.. A pat on the back and a kick in the ass at the same time!... Not angry in the least.. just frustrated.. I thought the production needed a more pronounced pedal steel guitar presence, not what they ended up with..
My best work was gutted from the mix.. If a did a nicely
timed E9 "bounce" it was "another take" time... I guess my old school ears and musical taste will not get used to the minimal role my steel is relegated to.

Would the greats we all admire have been so esteemed if their playing was shoved into tiny crevices and you had to work to hear it?...
I dunno, I long for 1966 when the steels were ringing out a little louder than they do today...

No, not complaining.. I get most of the steel calls around here and thats a good thing for me.
Just looking to "make my point" with it on a tune or two I guess....probably won't happen with light folk rock tho'... bob

I had to put my headphones on to hear. Two nice tracks split, but not given life by the producer until right when the 'horns' walked on your turnaround, playing lines that could have been done better on steel.
The producer came in with harmony lines in mind, rather than trusting the steel player, or just waiting to see how the song wants to go.
And then once given life, the steel tracks disappear.

The vocals are so nice and spare, it could have been a real fine song for steel guitar.
The parts are really beautiful, Bob.

Bob, its not that bad. I couldn't understand the words though. I agree with the more cutting sound comment. I've heard far worse. Bob, get into producing. It would be interesting to see what you come up with on something like this.

To be honest Bob, I really don't think this song is "begging for steel". The blusy sound is cool, but much more desirous of some acoustic slide guitar, or maybe dobro stuff. The "synthesized horns" (clarinet mostly, as I hear it) are drowned out by the piano, too, which is a little strong.

I see what you're saying, but this ain't Johnny Bush or Ray price. Take it for the good part (money, and a credit), and forget it. The world doesn't revolve around the pedal steel.

Donny.. I think you may be talking about Next Stop... Sweet End is the song that had the steel... bob

Bobby I know that Sweet End was the song you played on which I listened to. It seems though like these gals are latter day Andrew Sisters evidenced by Next Stop...I think the steel was added on the other track because some producer thought it would be nice to portray the girls as more than a retro WW2 trio in other words try to appeal to everyone. Having said that I must agree with the previous Bob; you did fine stop worrying about what they did or didn't use: Enjoy your career my friend which may be a bigger order than playing on their track...Peter

Bob,

There in lies the problem. You never named the song in your original post, and when I went to the site, "Next Stop" was the song that played. So figured that was the song.

When I did crank it, however, something in the mix sounded "steely" - but again, could have been any one of the other instrumnets.
As Donny mentioned, the piano seems to dominate all. Separation wasn't the greatest in there.

BUT - you can definitely hear the steel in "Sweet End".

BOB, THE WHOLE THING WOULD HAVE BIN BETTER
IF THE BASS AND PIANO {KEYBOARD } WERE IN
TUNE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE...ONE WAS SHARP AND THE OTHER WAS FLAT... LISTEN CAREFULLY AND SEE
IF YOU AGREE>>>>......
JENNINGS UR PK;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

------------------
EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Sweet End.... like the girls vocals and the tune, hate the fake horns and the guitar solo makes me wanna slap somebody, the producer maybe. Your playing sounded fine to me, but yeah a little more cut would have been my thinking.

Next Stop.... how'd you get your steel to sound just like a clarinet? Neat tune, but if you're in there, I didn't hear you.

I can understand your frustration at not having more to do in Sweet End (not sure if you're even on the other) but I think your feelings are just human nature.... I'm sitting here wishing I had anything to record on, a few licks on a record like this would be great... but then, if I did, like you I'd probably gripe it wasn't more, or whatever. I think you should just try to keep in mind that there are plenty of recordings where Lloyd, Buddy or Paul didn't really have much more to do than you did in this one. Live with it, sometimes you get to do a lot, and sometimes you're background. It's still music, you're still on a neat disc and you still got paid. If you want to play whatever you want and mix it right up front, record your own CD.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 24 June 2006 at 03:16 PM.]</p></FONT>

Only in Sweet End Jim..and yes you are correct, I AM lucky to play on a LOT of local stuff... I guess its because the steel is always "pushed aside" in favor of other instruments that I seem perturbed ... it just wears me down a little because this cut is so typical of what my sessions are like... I hear stuff out of Texas and SO much of the music there has the steel guitar still holding a proud place of honor in its structure...

I guess I see my steel as an afterthought in so many of my sessions.. HOWEVER Jim... I do appreciate the fact that lots of great steel players don't get what I do and would be happy to have the sessions and gigs I take for granted.. That fact is NEVER too far from my thoughts... I am certainly thankful for the opportunities I get...

Yes I am a big spoiled brat at times, but geez I wanna be the big kid on the block once or twice.. Its the bar band mentality in me.. always fighting for my space.. pushing my way to the fore whenever I can.. I guess I'm pee'd that they kept the guitar solo so long and didn't give me a little piece..

I am taking my bat and ball and going home now.. lol... bob

It is clear you would have added more to the
solo section than that over long guitar solo.

But yheck, you got the gig and other players didn't

If you can find a good singer you like,
why not try producing a cut or two YOUR way.
Yeah I know it takes MONEY, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

I would like to hear you do something like the "Trio" album with these ladies.
Why not give them a copy and tell them what
you would like to do.

Who knows what might happen.

Right.......BTW Bob, my remark about recording your own CD wasn't sarcastic, I'm serious.

<SMALL>A pat on the back and a kick in the ass at the same time!</SMALL>

...better than if he gave you a kick it the back and a pat on the ass...

I wouldn't have used the horns either, I might have used fiddle, but I agree with Bob Hoffnar that there could easily have been too much steel on this track...steel sounds good on the first verse but needed to be augmented for the chorus. If it was me, I probably would have left out the steel in the first verse and used it in the second, before the chorus. I couldn't understand what they were singing about either, but it doesn't matter, it sounded good. Every one of us here would have a different opinion about how to put it together...you'll probably always have a different opinion than the producer, but it's his song. Produce your own, and then you can only second guess what you did yourself, and you probably will....meaning generic "you", not you personally, Bob. For what it's worth, I think you did a good job of steel playing on this tune, and I suppose that's why they're using you.

Bob - to me, the song sounded fine for the first 1:50, till the fake horns hit. What you did sounded fine, and fit well, to my tastes.

I also don't think the horns fit there - and fake horns to boot? - no thanks. But this is just a difference in concept and a matter of taste. The bigger problem to me is that they try to keep other things going there also, instead of just giving it to the horns. For 1:50, the music had space and it was nice. After that, it's a jumbled up mess, to my ears.

Similarly, I don't care for the guitar solo and fills. To me, it just rambles, doesn't really add anything, and I don't like the tone. Just my opinion as a guitar player, and I think a great guitar solo would have been a nice changeup. But it may be that their audience likes this kind of guitar approach. De gustibus non disputandum, as usual.

I agree with Bob H. that you shouldn't be upset or frustrated about this. You were called as a session guy, laid some stuff down, it was good stuff, and they made the production decisions. What you did sounded good - cool. After 1:50, I woulda' asked them to please, pretty please with sugar on top, mix me out.

With that said, I do agree that most musicians around here (not far from you - yet another big NE university town like Ithaca) seem not to see the potential for steel - "it ain't what they call rock and roll". They have this strictly "textural add" country/Americana stereotype about its possibilities, IMO. The other thing some people like is when I make it sound like a distorted lap steel. But if we wanna play Ray Price songs, we have to either move to Texas or play out in the boondocks to older people. I do that when I wanna get a fix of that. Maybe they have retro country honkytonks in NYC, but that ain't the thing at any colleges I've seen up here, and I've been around a bunch. They love to go "yee ha", but they don't get it. Hit 'em with the real thang, and they go "Say What?!" - again, in my experience. So I feel your pain, but there's nothing we can do about it except start our own bands and produce our own records. They have a right to hear it the way they want to. IMO, as always.

Hi Bob,
First i'd like to say i relly did like the song,Sweet End.I loved the sound of your steel when they let you play.When the break came,My ear was already for the steel part.Then It was like the bottom fell out of the song,when those fake horns came in.And i thought the guitar solo even lacked quite a bit.I must say though,i thought the vocals of the girls were superb.I'm not a music critic,I just know what my ear likes to hear.
Bob,I know what you are going through.I lived in The Finger Lakes my whole life.I just recently moved to east TN. from Geneva N.Y.which is only a 1/2 hour drive from Ithca.When you venture into that area,the music scene is different from anything around.I am 54 myself,I was at the original Woodstock.Now they hold the Grassroots festival there in Trumansburg.My wife and I went 2 years ago.and we had a blast.Even got to talk with Patty Loveless's steel player at the time.And hung out with Chuck and Darrick,the Campbell Bros.But all the other music was very unique.A lot of them coming from the Ithaca area.You have to remember,it is a college town.They are always experimenting with thier music and art down there.One of the coolist bands i heard in Ithaca awile back,was a Zydeco band with the sqeezebox,scrub board,bass,drummer,bells,whistles,you name it.But i remember a young african american,college student from England,playing and old Fender Champ lap steel.and he would tear it up jack,when they give him the chance,which wasn't very often.
Another time i was invited to a open jam night in Watkins Glen N.Y.to play dobro.I have to admit, it was a whole new musical ballgame for me that night.Just about the time i was starting to get the hang of it the Jam was over.But they really enjoyed the dobro.Bob,you have a rough road in that part of the country with the pedal steel.But i'm sure someone is going to come along and say,Hey Man!!! that is the sweetest sound we have ever heard.We'd like to feature your playing on our next CD.
Hang in There,
Gary

Well thanks Gary.. that DOES help a lot,because it came from someone who KNOWS the area..."Experiment"is a GREAT way to express my studio work in this region.. Always just a taste.. the THOUGHT is more important than the content,,etc,,,

Everyone I work with expresses thier great love for the pedal steel sound[including the members of my band]yet when it comes time to hear it in a more prominent role,even in a song where it would be perfect,the brakes are applied quickly, and its back to a "hint"of steel sound... anyway, its not a problem... I'll take the work when it comes ,while waiting for the day when I can "air it out" on my steel a bit... thanks for the kind and supportive reply... bob

<H1>MOVE!</H1>

I liked the song "Sweet End" up until the horns came in. I also thought the guitar part was inappropriate for the style of music. Seemd to me to be just noodling. I also thought it was too far forward in the mix. I think it would have been better if they'd have spilt the solo with you. I liked your parts and I would have liked to see them just a little bit hotter in the mix, but whoever mixed this was kind of all over the place.